King of the Hammers discussion

paradisePWoffrd said:
One thing I thought about while watching some and hearing the comments; Along with your comments here. Building a Chase truck that you could prerun with, might give an advantage. I know a Chase truck isn't quite the same here, as outside assistance is illegal, but does that include spotting? I felt like I heard comments that would indicate some teams had spotters outside the car? I could definitely see an advantage having a local, or someone that knows the rock sections extremely well, stationed nearby helping to suggest alt lines. Dave has thought about alot, so I'm sure that's illegal.
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100% several of the top teams have spotters in spectator areas that can communicate via race radios. It’s a bigger issue when some obstacles you only have to hit on one lap out of three. They would inform of whether it was open or a parking lot. Not all spectator areas have an excellent view of areas, but some absolutely do, and can spot thru rock sections without the codog getting out of the car.
 
Does anyone iron man this thing in a prepped moon buggy?

Seems really un theoretical for competition? Hey, but I like the odds, LOL!
 
Mac5005 said:
100% several of the top teams have spotters in spectator areas that can communicate via race radios. It’s a bigger issue when some obstacles you only have to hit on one lap out of three. They would inform of whether it was open or a parking lot. Not all spectator areas have an excellent view of areas, but some absolutely do, and can spot thru rock sections without the codog getting out of the car.
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Really wish stuff like that was banned so it was an even playing field.
 
Mac5005 said:
100% several of the top teams have spotters in spectator areas that can communicate via race radios. It’s a bigger issue when some obstacles you only have to hit on one lap out of three. They would inform of whether it was open or a parking lot. Not all spectator areas have an excellent view of areas, but some absolutely do, and can spot thru rock sections without the codog getting out of the car.
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I've wondered about drones too... On the ones where you can't get as good of a look, could you throw a drive in the air to get you a better view.... Or tapping into the hammertown video feeds would be neat. They had some great angles.
 
DSM Turbos said:
Really wish stuff like that was banned so it was an even playing field.
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I see your point, but kind of disagree... I would think many of these teams come out with a handful of friends to help out... Maybe I am underestimating the needs in the pit, but having a friend with a race radio isn't all that expensive, compared to the cost of rigs, multiple prerunning sessions, prerunning rigs, sxs, etc...

I know there are folks that are just doing good to get there and don't have any extra support, but I can't believe that is majority, atleast in 4400.
 
No drones allowed out there. Only ones there are the permitted media ones.

Anyone can ride anywhere and tune in to the fq for whomever.

It’s racing. You aren’t competitive if you aren’t in the grey.

That would be like preventing prerunning. Yes locals have the advantage, but nothing can be done.

That’s the luck aspect being the biggest issue. You have to do all the necessary things, but then also have to be lucky also.

Look at all the failures on top tier teams. Just bad luck. Not from lack of prep, prerunning, poor materials, or budget constraints.
 
paradisePWoffrd said:
I see your point, but kind of disagree... I would think many of these teams come out with a handful of friends to help out... Maybe I am underestimating the needs in the pit, but having a friend with a race radio isn't all that expensive, compared to the cost of rigs, multiple prerunning sessions, prerunning rigs, sxs, etc...

I know there are folks that are just doing good to get there and don't have any extra support, but I can't believe that is majority, atleast in 4400.
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Long post warning. Just followed my stream of consciousness while sitting in airport. Haha

The majority of racers do only have a handful of friends/family supporting them.

That’s why it’s important to help each other when it’s possible.

Having 3 pit areas spread out, it makes logical sense to work together. Divide and conquer. Work with a couple other racers to share pit crews and spots. This way everyone has someone in the pits for them, even if it’s another racers team.

Out there in the middle of it, even if it is your direct competition, you do all you can to help your fellow racer. It’s the thought of paying it forward, so that when your own luck is down, someone else will help you.

You don’t want to pass or win bc they had bad luck, you want to beat them on door to door racing alone.

We had a ton of help from people I have never met before this week.

Last year in the pits, I helped 3 other teams when the car came in. Helped a couple more relaying information. Even if it’s just making pb&j sandwiches or handing people tools.

The brotherhood of helping another racer/wheeler is still there.

Now the fighting and destruction at night on some of the trails by spectators, destroys some of my faith in humanity.

A JKU was stuck. Bad on Choclate thunder. One winch hooked to it, and not moving at all with a snatch block.

Hundreds of people around, not doing anything but talking smack.

Then a beat Toyota tried the buggy line, and rolled on top of the jeep.

People get out and start yelling and then fighting starts.

1) jku never should have tried that line on 37s.
2) jku should have expected damage trying that line
3) Toyota never had a chance to try that line. Everyone knew it was going to flop onto jeep.
4) jku guy started fight mad about minimal damage from toy flop onto it. (Mirror/windshield frame)

5). Now both lines are closed. Nobody doing much.

About that time Steve (with us) got his buggy close enough and we start working. Flip Toyota back over, start to work on jku.

Then use high lift and two snatch blocks to get jku unpinned and up and out.

Then another brawl breaks out. Just from the booze and egos. All the people around, and yet I find me and my wheeling group in the middle of it, fixing it to get the trail open again.

To think all the people up there, and not doing jack shit to try to help. Just throwing beer bottles and cans and yelling at them. Faith in humanity lost.

Then on back door, a rig rolled over onto another person. Broken leg.

20 mins before police on scene to get the person air lifted out.

People were literally within 10’ of rigs trying back door.

That’s what needs to be banned, or at least organized. Not the spectating and comm issues during the race.

Need a couple dedicated “Marshall’s” helping recover people at CT/backdoor and push people back at least so they won’t be pinned under a rollover.
 
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Always wondered how wild it would get in the "West".

Lots and lots folks. Egos and lots more folks piled onto that....equals one big brew stew of a can of worms. BDB shenanigans Times oblivion.

This is what I fear is the factor in its longevity. The absolute insanity of its growth in population, managing people will become the biggest hurdle and burden of the promoters.
 
WARRIORWELDING said:
Always wondered how wild it would get in the "West".

Lots and lots folks. Egos and lots more folks piled onto that....equals one big brew stew of a can of worms. BDB shenanigans Times oblivion.

This is what I fear is the factor in its longevity. The absolute insanity of its growth in population, managing people will become the biggest hurdle and burden of the promoters.
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Mad max meets burning man add a little little jagger, plus closest thing to the apocalypse with some Baja seasoning. Wild Wild West.

Hard to actually describe accurately. Everyone should go and see it for yourself.

Really not that difficult logistically to make it happen. If anyone needs tips, info. I’ll help.
 
Mac5005 said:
Mad max meets burning man add a little little jagger, plus closest thing to the apocalypse with some Baja seasoning. Wild Wild West.

Hard to actually describe accurately. Everyone should go and see it for yourself.

Really not that difficult logistically to make it happen. If anyone needs tips, info. I’ll help.
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On the list, but not alone for sure!
 
I’ve always been blown away by the videos I see on IG of people crowded around Back Door, looking like a stomped ant hill, while someone is thrashing their rig trying to get up it. It looks incredibly dangerous, and I feel like an old stiff for saying it. But just thinking about it makes me nervous, those videos look like if one person slipped, they could knock down 3-4 others and fall 10’ down under rig that is bangin the rev limiter and could easily never know they fell, and since people are yelling anyway how would you stop the driver?

Guess that’s me being older and being a parent, but oh well.
 
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77GreenMachine said:
I’ve always been blown away by the videos I see on IG of people crowded around Back Door, looking like a stomped ant hill, while someone is thrashing their rig trying to get up it. It looks incredibly dangerous, and I feel like an old stiff for saying it. But just thinking about it makes me nervous, those videos look like if one person slipped, they could knock down 3-4 others and fall 10’ down under rig that is bangin the rev limiter and could easily never know they fell, and since people are yelling anyway how would you stop the driver?

Guess that’s me being older and being a parent, but oh well.
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i agree with you and it makes my chest tighten when I see stuff like that. But I’m also an advocate for removing warning labels. Stupid games and prizes and whatnot that undoubtedly leads to regulation. I can’t count the number of times I’ve been at some kind of NASCAR/mud race/monster truck show/baseball game/etc event and been happy I chose the nose bleeds and/or binoculars to have reaction time from whatever debris/vehicle finds its way in to the stands.
 
I’m watching some 2010 KOH right now. Holy shat! I don’t know how people didn’t get hurt or worse. Lol. The crowd all over the rigs, winch lines getting run over and snapped. Crazy!

back to you tube....
 
I’ll say this other quick bit.

If I had to buy shocks right now,

First choice would be ADS, second would be king, third would be fox but only through Alltech.

Lol.

My earlier pics are of the wayne valve.

Confirmed my speculation from last year. Remove the coil spring from the bypass poppet. Then use n2 psi to set pressure on poppet.

Offers far less progressive spring force curve inside the bypass valve.

Was on the longest compression tube. Only 1. Others were all conventional.

Far more big tube bypasses with overlapping layouts. Didn’t see any staggered tube layouts.

Also notice the use of different flow paths for shock oil to inline coolers.

Oil comes out of one place and enters elsewhere. Big extruded tube style cooler.

We were melting rubber shock bushings, and still needed more compression damping. More damping equals more heat.
 
Random thoughts after watching it. How many podium finishes did Fox have the last 2 years? I found it hilarious that King was a major sponsor of the whole event, but Fox has been consistent. I know BJ won the TT, I was busy that day but watched a good portion of both the EMC and 4400 race. I keep telling a buddy just wait on Erik Miller, proving solid axle cars just can take a beating, and how he gets through the rocks is ridiculous. Literally watched the TTC Claws rig struggle like hell on chocolate thunder and then another miller chassis with a broken pass front shaft get denied. Then Erik himself just one shots it smooth a baby’s ass. The shock tune is everything.



Edit: more stuff I noticed; Tony in the gen right JKU was impressive, it was more durable than his sons, throw them check book at race car. But still he did better than last year. I do remember watching the savvy prepped gladiator and it looked good in one rock section on the first lap, I wanna say Cougar Buttes. But was waiting for it to smash the bedside on chocolate thunder, it never came.
 
iwaxmyjimmy said:
Random thoughts after watching it. How many podium finishes did Fox have the last 2 years? I found it hilarious that King was a major sponsor of the whole event, but Fox has been consistent. I know BJ won the TT, I was busy that day but watched a good portion of both the EMC and 4400 race. I keep telling a buddy just wait on Erik Miller, proving solid axle cars just can take a beating, and how he gets through the rocks is ridiculous. Literally watched the TTC Claws rig struggle like hell on chocolate thunder and then another miller chassis with a broken pass front shaft get denied. Then Erik himself just one shots it smooth a baby’s ass. The shock tune is everything.



Edit: more stuff I noticed; Tony in the gen right JKU was impressive, it was more durable than his sons, throw them check book at race car. But still he did better than last year. I do remember watching the savvy prepped gladiator and it looked good in one rock section on the first lap, I wanna say Cougar Buttes. But was waiting for it to smash the bedside on chocolate thunder, it never came.
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Gomez runs king.

Not sure about the emc and shock brands vs winners.

It’s definitely important to get the tune right for Johnson valley. That tune anywhere else will likely knock your teeth out and rattle all the bolts out on the east anywhere.
 
Mac5005 said:
Gomez runs king.

Not sure about the emc and shock brands vs winners.

It’s definitely important to get the tune right for Johnson valley. That tune anywhere else will likely knock your teeth out and rattle all the bolts out on the east anywhere.
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Oh that is not a lie at all, seen a tire carrier get launched off a Jeep at 20mph in the whoops. He learned that uptravel needed to be more than 3”, I however enjoyed the show. And I’m not trying to say your opinion is wrong just curious because of things I noticed and I want to learn. Fox damn near swept the podiums last year I know Miller Motorsports runs Fox. I wanna say the 4800 podium was all Fox this year too. But I’d love to hear your thoughts on why you believe those are better than one another. I do remember seeing something on one of the social media sites about their shock oils and how they had to be adjusted but is was the reverse of what you’re saying. Which means I’m curious if some of that is also tuning out bad geometry.
 
iwaxmyjimmy said:
Oh that is not a lie at all, seen a tire carrier get launched off a Jeep at 20mph in the whoops. He learned that uptravel needed to be more than 3”, I however enjoyed the show. And I’m not trying to say your opinion is wrong just curious because of things I noticed and I want to learn. Fox damn near swept the podiums last year I know Miller Motorsports runs Fox. I wanna say the 4800 podium was all Fox this year too. But I’d love to hear your thoughts on why you believe those are better than one another. I do remember seeing something on one of the social media sites about their shock oils and how they had to be adjusted but is was the reverse of what you’re saying. Which means I’m curious if some of that is also tuning out bad geometry.
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Factory fox only offers decent support if they know your name before you walk up. For the other 90% of the people there, their support was lacking. Same experience as last year.

King supports anyone running king 100%.

Ads supports those not evening running ads. Ads only had 14-16” shocks on lakebed but offered anything to help us get fixed. Karl Also tuned our Kings and fox and offered great no nonsense advice.

Fox oil does have a higher viscosity index than king oil.

But it’s an apples to oranges comparison.

I could write a short book on the differences between some of the products that 90% of the people won’t notice, and wouldn’t matter. It would be way too wordy to type it all out. That’s a campfire chat.

Don’t necessarily link shock brand to podium position. That’s overlooking the luck aspect of the race. Also look at qualifying times, lap times, etc over the past several races. (Roosters don’t make the sun rise). A shock is a shock is a shock. Some brands use different hardware to achieve the same goal.

There were several top tier tuners on the lakebed.

Karl Mason w/ ADS, Gerado Iribe w/king, Wayne Isrealsen w/ Alltech, Phil liccardi w/ liberty mountain(radflo), Mike w/ factory fox, Glenn w/radflo etc.

That is just my first hand experience on the lakebed being a nobody and needing last minute support for broken parts and non scheduled tuning.

Wayne, Karl, and Gerado did everything they could to get us fixed up last minute. Nothing but great things to say about all 3.

Factory Fox did install some poly bumpers on our rear shocks, but only after removing the ADS stickers I installed on the reservoirs, covering their logo. haha
 
Wayne is first class people. That’s all I got to add to that discussion.

(not saying any of the others aren’t but just vouching for Wayne)
 
I think it’s really awesome to see and hear how everyone helps each other out for this competition. That’s really, really awesome.
 
A few things to add to this discussion that I have seen or have done-

There many teams who will budget $100k to $150k per car on their team for operations just for hammers week. Not counting the race car or the rest of the season.

New car builds are between $230k and $350k for turn key. But can go way up from there depending upon your preferences.

If you aren’t using spotters you Are still learning. Get your buddy, wife, or brother a Rugged Radio handheld and stick them on Backdoor. Then have them take the 3 min drive to Chocolate Thunder. It’s free. It’s incredibly helpful. It’s not special, there are 20,000 people standing at each obstacle. Get someone a radio.

Teams replacing drivetrains on the lakebed- Yes, I spoke with multiple odds on favorites to win and they ran on 2019 parts through qualifying on Tuesday, then were installing brand new everything on Wednesday- axles, shafts, gears, lockers, trans, fluids, driveshafts. All new for race day.

Weld fatigue...... I was clueless about this. I went all in and loaded up on a ton of new parts. Top shelf prep, relentless strategy and pre-running to be as fast as possible. No clue a 15 second weld on the A arm could wipe out so much. This was easily the fastest car I’ve brought to a race. We passed multiple ifs cars at speed in the desert. After 18 months we figured out the electrical issue that kept knocking us out. Couldn’t have had more fun this week- a single weld around a tube knocked out thousands of dollars of parts and closed me out earlier than any big race I’ve been in. It’s a terrible feeling to work so hard, especially when your family and friends are genuinely rooting for you to succeed, and you don’t get to the end.

So hopefully I can fix it, and then start looking at other a arm welds as well, I guess? Then try again next year.
 
Sounds like metal fatigue at the heat affected zone next to the weld.

Sucks that’s what ended your day jay.

Thicker material or better material will help with that.

Also can do a bigger tube over the weld area with a fish mouth, so that the actual heat affected zone isn’t a smooth even line around the tube where the weld bung is. Same idea of not having a perfectly vertical weld on a frame.

Also could do 4340 and then have the part heat treated after weld to normalize and even the HAZ.

Your car looked fast and seemed like you were making good time watching the tracker.
 
There is some info about the NO2 bypass adjuster on PBB from last year.
Some more on RDZ too IIRC.

My shock tuning experience is with Phil and Jake Burkey. Both class acts who know what they're doing.
I've interacted with Gerado (King) and Glenn (Radflo), both great people who genuinely care about their customers.

I run Radflo because I got a great deal on them. At my level, any brand with a proper tube layout and sizing would do just fine.


For KOH, I've been in 2017 and was supposed to go back in 2020. It didn't happen, but 2021 is the goal. It's a badass experience. I'll probably try to get there on Monday or so and leave way after race day. If you want to leave with everyone else, it's a giant mess.
 
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