LS folks,critique this manifold.

1-tonmudder

1-tonmudder

Doin my part to stir the pot.
Joined
Apr 17, 2005
Location
Greeneville TN
Chevy LS1 Down Draft EFI Stack Intake Manifold System Complete Satin


Im gathering parts to do a LS swap in my sons 68 C10,lookin to do a 60's/70's style custom truck w a modern drivetrain. Saw this manifold on ebay and like the nostalgic/hillborn-ish look of it.I know typically the tuning of a multi carb set up is kinda tricky but since this multi port inj I don't see how it would be much different than a reg ls intake.Im aware that for $1250 there is a lot of other options. Thought,opinions???
 
Theres a lot of numbers before the decimal point but it looks pretty cool.
 
1-tonmudder said:
I know typically the tuning of a multi carb set up is kinda tricky but since this multi port inj I don't see how it would be much different than a reg ls intake.
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Make sure you know what the tuning options are, and whether you can use the stock ECU or need an aftermarket unit. I'm more familiar with using aftermarket ECU setups for this type of intake arrangement, so I don't know what's available for tuning the stock ECUs and whether the stock ECU hardware works well for this. Some of the intake systems come packaged with a complete engine management system for this reason.

Tuning can be very interesting because you've got a completely different amount of manifold vacuum because of the almost complete lack of plenum volume after the throttle plates. That makes idle tuning a real bitch because there's a lot of vacuum pulses, which is why a vacuum plenum/accumulator is necessary to smooth things out. You basically need to average the vacuum signal from many/most of the cylinders so the MAP doesn't get a really choppy signal. You've already got a MAP sensor on a LS engine, so at least you don't have to convert from mass air to speed-density engine management.

The really nice part about this type of manifold is that throttle response is near-instantaneous, and the intake trumpet length can be changed depending on where in the RPM range you want to make peak power. Short trumpets are for high-RPM power, long trumpets for low-RPM torque obviously.

The linkages still need to be synchronized properly for best operation, but you don't have the same problem with carbs. You can just do individual cylinder trims (if the hardware and tuning program support it) to tweak individual injectors if really necessary.

1-tonmudder said:
Im aware that for $1250 there is a lot of other options.
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There actually aren't a lot of options for individual throttle body injection setups for a V8 for that price. Most are a few thousand dollars, like Jenvey, TWM, Harrop, Borla, Kinsler, Inglese, etc.

With a setup like that, the quality and design of the linkage and throttle bodies are very, very important. Very.

I've never heard of this company, and I'd also research them very carefully as well and see what the LS community thinks of the quality and performance. $1250 may be a good deal, but it's a complete shit deal if it doesn't function properly or perform well or has quality problems.


I would do some very careful research before buying an intake setup like this, just to be sure you know what you're getting into to make a complete system and have it properly tuned. ....and what the additional cost of support components may be.
 
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Oh, and don't forget about air filters. That kit has nothing included, so you need to figure that out unless you're making a fairground cruiser or trailer queen or a drag car.

You can get filters for the individual intake trumpets, or get trumpets with filters built in, or make a plenum plate (to go between the throttle bodies and trumpets) and then run a plenum box with an air filter somewhere. The first two options are probably at least a third of the cost of the entire intake, and the last option requires some creativity and fabrication (and tends to defeat the aesthetics, if that's important).

Some of the kits comes with filters or plenum boxes so you can use them on street cars or road race cars, but they're much more expensive. Most of the plenum box versions are cross-ram though, not downdraft like the one you're looking at unless you can run a very tall hood.. Harrop makes really nice versions with plenum boxes that are full of beautiful carbon fiber.
 
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Fabrik8 said:
Tuning can be very interesting because you've got a completely different amount of manifold vacuum because of the almost complete lack of plenum volume after the throttle plates. That makes idle tuning a real bitch because there's a lot of vacuum pulses, which is why a vacuum plenum/accumulator is necessary to smooth things out. You basically need to average the vacuum signal from many/most of the cylinders so the MAP doesn't get a really choppy signal. You've already got a MAP sensor on a LS engine, so at least you don't have to convert from mass air to speed-density engine management.
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I hadn't though about that and a cam swap could make things even worse.
Fabrik8 said:
There actually aren't a lot of options for individual throttle body injection setups for a V8 for that price. Most are a few thousand dollars, like Jenvey, TWM, Harrop, Borla, Kinsler, Inglese, etc.
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I guess I should have been a lil specific.By options I meant a Fast,Hi-Ram,Edelbrock or MSD intake.

Fabrik8 said:
I've never heard of this company, and I'd also research them very carefully as well and see what the LS community thinks of the quality and performance. $1250 may be a good deal, but it's a complete shit deal if it doesn't function properly or perform well or has quality problems.


I would do some very careful research before buying an intake setup like this, just to be sure you know what you're getting into to make a complete system and have it properly tuned. ....and what the additional cost of support components may be.
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I was mainly courious of peoples initial impression,Im the type of person who'll do their homework before spending my money,esp $1250.
Fabrik8 said:
Oh, and don't forget about air filters. That kit has nothing included, so you need to figure that out unless you're making a fairground cruiser or trailer queen or a drag car.
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No its gonna be a cruiser,"the plan" is to have it road worthy in time to drive it to the Goodguys show in Charlotte next Oct.Filters was gonna be another question I had,Ive never saw a trumpet style intake w air filters,just tennis balls when they are parked.

I also was lookin at this intake.
Edelbrock 29086, Edelbrock Victor Series EFI Intake Manifolds | Edelbrock

But what bolts to the carb flange on top of the manifold,a hood/elbow that the tb bolts to???I assume that most/all cast style intakes wont flow as smooth as a plastic intake??
 
1-tonmudder said:
Filters was gonna be another question I had,Ive never saw a trumpet style intake w air filters,just tennis balls when they are parked.
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There's the normal screen-type filters that a lot of vintage racecars have, and then there's foam or pleated cotton filters like a mini version of a K&N filter. There are various levels of filtration and flow restriction depending on what you get obviously. Some of them go into the trumpets, some of them go over top like a shower cap.

1-tonmudder said:
I also was lookin at this intake.
Edelbrock 29086, Edelbrock Victor Series EFI Intake Manifolds | Edelbrock

But what bolts to the carb flange on top of the manifold,a hood/elbow that the tb bolts to???I assume that most/all cast style intakes wont flow as smooth as a plastic intake??
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A throttle body with a standard carb flange goes onto the carb flange, then a standard carb-type air filter. It just looks like a billet carb body with throttle plates and no carb guts, and the addition of a throttle position sensor.. It's really great if you're going for the traditional look, but usually not as much power as you can with a more modern type of intake. Depends on what you're going for. The mixture distribution and response of an Edelbrock manifold is going to be far better with port injection than a carb, that's for sure.

It's conceptually the exact same setup as the NASCAR Sprint Cup engines use, because all of the cylinder head flow architecture was optimized around carbs and that type of intake, so the switch to fuel injection needed to mimic that instead of redesigning and re-homologating the cylinder heads. Cup uses MSD throttle bodies, but there are quite a few on the market now from Fast, MSD, etc. So it works fine.

You can also get throttle bodies with throttle body injection instead of port fuel injection in the intake runners. I think the Fast is a TBI if I remember. It's pretty much a bolt-on replacement for a carb, uses the same manifold and everything. I'd still rather have a port injection manifold (like that Edelbrock you linked) for performance if I was going the traditional-look route.

It's not really about whether something is cast or plastic, it's all about the design. If you can get a better design out of plastic because it makes it easier to manufacture a higher performance design, then plastic can be better. Think more in terms of the strengths and drawbacks of a carb-style manifold versus a ram-style manifold with a front mount throttle body like the stock manifold. There are cast versions of things similar to the stock manifold, but maybe I'm overthinking what you're getting at.
 
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My Victor intake setup, dirty but you get the idea.
 

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Here's the MSD, Holley, and FAST TBI units:

astatic.summitracing.com_global_images_prod_large_MSD_2910.jpg_41e5e5cd7e399b4120ccf9305fd1da91.jpg

awww.onallcylinders.com_wp_content_uploads_2013_06_TerminatorWiring_600w.jpg

awww.cpgnation.com_wp_content_uploads_2014_03_fast18.jpg

ajerryforthofer.files.wordpress.com_2010_12_11_30_10_ez_efi_throttle_body_sm.jpg



And a few of the air-only throttle bodies for use with that Edelbrock intake with port injection:


awww.fuelairspark.com_media_catalog_product_cache_9_image_9df7a52198e13964553ea9d096829fd816e6.jpg

awww.edelbrock.com_automotive_mc_efi_sb_3878.jpg

arspimages.holley.com_112_587.jpg_db2e63fbb4f3f9f0f44bbbec20e072e4.jpg
 
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Fabrik8 said:
A throttle body with a standard carb flange goes onto the carb flange, then a standard carb-type air filter. It just looks like a billet carb body with throttle plates and no carb guts, and the addition of a throttle position sensor.. It's really great if you're going for the traditional look, but usually not as much power as you can with a more modern type of intake. Depends on what you're going for. The mixture distribution and response of an Edelbrock manifold is going to be far better with port injection than a carb, that's for sure.
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Yeah Im gonna stay injected for sure.I thought about a Victor w a carb and a MSD box but your getting back up around the $1200 mark and I cant really justify spendin that much to remove fuel injection and have the potential quirks that comes w a carb.I want better than stock power w/o have to run a large stall or have to worry about driveability.I put a stock 5.3 in my wifes Wrangler two winters ago and used the stock truck intake that came on the engine.It turned out good and has been super reliable so far.To me its the only way to go.
Infamous1 said:
My Victor intake setup, dirty but you get the idea.
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That's how I thought it was suppose to work/look.Is that a custom elbow or off the shelf piece?? What TB are you running???
 
My elbow came from intake elbows.com and it has a ComTech 90mm TB on it. There were a bunch that came up on a Google images search for me too that looked cool like the ones you found.
 
Yeah I was thinking I could probably have one built.not sure about finding the flange though.
 
I'm confused about what you're actually wanting to do here...

If you're going to do an LS swap in a C10 and want to keep EFI, and are going to wreck the entire traditional look by using a 4150 flange PFI manifold with a huge elbow and throttle body, why not just stick with the stock LS manifold (or something similar with a lot more power like the fairly cheap aluminum Weiand)? You can use the stock ECU with a stock-type manifold like the Weiand too, using something like HP Tuners.

If you want a cheap elbow with a 4150 flange, you can get a nice cast Edelbrock piece for about $100.

Make sure you talk to a LS-savvy tuner very early in the process to figure out if you need to buy an aftermarket ECU to do what you want. That raises the price game a lot, but unlocks the capability of doing whatever you really want.

I'm sorry, those elbows are super ugly. I'm really biased though, I just cant see any reason to use a manifold designed for a carb on a modern engine and then stick a big elbow on it and still likely not make as much power as the (poor-ish performing) stock manifold.

Here, read this:
20 LS1 Intake Manifolds: Tested!
 
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Yeah Im wanting a modern ,(fi'd) ls .I'm not worried about ruining the trad look of the engine or I'd keep the six banger.I'm just throwing things out there to see what peoples experiences are nothing is written in stone and its all subject to change.I'm not a fan of carbs but prefer the look of a carb intake versus a plain black ls intake.I like the look of a fabricated,tig welded part personally but to each his own.
 
Love the looks of fabricated stuff also! Takes me back to a time when you couldn't just "buy" speed parts.
 
Loganwayne said:
View attachment 201157 I'm just saying a 5.3 with a truck intake and 76mm turbo fit really nice under the hood of a 68
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Im not smart enuf or have the funds to do a turbo set up,although I could always start a go fund me account.It would be as legit as some
 
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