New heat pump choices

kaiser715

kaiser715

Doing hard time
Joined
Jun 1, 2006
Location
7, Pocket, NC
Got quotes for hvac on the new house.

Want to use the guy our family has always used, and his pricing compares good. Trane dealer.

He did calcs on our plan, and offered 3 units. House is 3000sf on one level, will use a single system.

Choices are:

Trane XR14 -- 4 Ton, SEER 14.0, 1YR (labor)/10YR (compressor) warranty
Trane XR15 -- 4 Ton, variable speed, SEER 15.0, 1YR/10YR warranty ($900 additional cost)
Trane XL18i -- 5 Ton, variable speed, SEER 16.0, 2 stage compressor, 2YR/12YR warranty ($2850 additional cost)

I'm leaning to the 15 or 18i. Figured the first step-up from the XR14 would be worth it. Would the 18i be worth another 2k? Performance, life, warranty, energy costs, etc??

Thoughts?
 
I'm not a HVAC contractor. I deal with moisture issues. I would be concerned with size of unit. If it requires 4 tons why think 5 tons ?This isn't like buying a truck where stepping up to a bigger engine just in case. I would would concentrate on the load calculations to get it right sized. Then comes the duct system. That's a lot of square feet to get the air evenly distributed. Other considerations are if it works great cooling will it work as well during heating. I like split systems better because it keeps all the air inside the structure and can make the duct system simpler and shorter
 
moldman05 said:
I'm not a HVAC contractor. I deal with moisture issues. I would be concerned with size of unit. If it requires 4 tons why think 5 tons ?This isn't like buying a truck where stepping up to a bigger engine just in case. I would would concentrate on the load calculations to get it right sized. Then comes the duct system. That's a lot of square feet to get the air evenly distributed. Other considerations are if it works great cooling will it work as well during heating. I like split systems better because it keeps all the air inside the structure and can make the duct system simpler and shorter
Click to expand...
Split as in two zones?
 
I was referring to an air handler in the house ( in the crawl space if you have one ) and the compressor/ coil are outside makes the equipment split into parts versus a packaged unit when all of the equipment in one package is located outside with ducts penetrating exterior foundation to be connected to unit.
 
Variable speed seems like a good add.

Are they going to zone it at all? Our house is about 2800 sf, and if I had the opportunity, I'd switch it from one unit to two, just for zoning. Ours has all of the bedrooms at the north end, and the public spaces at the south end. The loads are not the same, and change from winter to summer. A zone damper with a variable speed fan and a multistage furnace and compressor could accomplish the same thing (probably at a lower initial cost and with less energy use) but the simplicity and redundancy of two units is attractive to me.

Edit: I'm with moldman. Forget about package units. Hate them... unless it's an RTU in a commercial building.
 
moldman05 said:
I would be concerned with size of unit. If it requires 4 tons why think 5 tons ?
Click to expand...

Without looking at unit cut sheets, he might have to get the bigger unit to get the fancy controls and pumps... or the multistage part of the controls might step at levels that don't work well with the loads.
 
moldman05 said:
I'm not a HVAC contractor. I deal with moisture issues. I would be concerned with size of unit. If it requires 4 tons why think 5 tons ?This isn't like buying a truck where stepping up to a bigger engine just in case. I would would concentrate on the load calculations to get it right sized. Then comes the duct system. That's a lot of square feet to get the air evenly distributed. Other considerations are if it works great cooling will it work as well during heating. I like split systems better because it keeps all the air inside the structure and can make the duct system simpler and shorter
Click to expand...

X2. Actually having an oversized unit can lead to a premature death of the condenser unit, attributed to short-cycling of the compressor. Generally manufacturers design a unit to operate (at 100% duty, or 100% demand for heat or cool for an entire hour.. think hottest day or coldest day) for 7 minute cycles, 6 times an hour, to get the longest life out of the compressor. If your oversized unit is banging on and off all the time because it is overcooling or overheating your space, not only will you be more uncomfortable because of the thermal overshoot, but the compressor may also have a shorter life.

The difference between a SEER 15 and 16 unit will likely be negligible in monthly dollar spend. However, the 2 stage compressor of the 5 ton would indeed be an upgrade.

In addition, keep the thermostat PLACEMENT in mind. A well placed thermostat will give you comfort dividends over a thermostat with improperly installed batt (or no insulation) behind it, or addressing the thermal needs of an area where you don't occupy. Also, try to be a ductwork nazi when your contractor comes in for tight bends and/or smushing the duct with duct hangers with flexible duct; an impressive amount of distribution energy can go to waste with haphazardly installed ductwork.

I would recommend a split system unless you're willing to make provisions on the inside of the house for a packaged system's trunk duct to go nearly the length of the house, otherwise you'll have one side of the house hot/cold while the other end is opposite (think 5-8 degrees over the length of the house).

Echoing what Shawn has said, you might consider (2) smaller 2 ton mini-split style units for each end of the house. Not the mini splits that go to a wall-mounted register, but each mini split would go to it's own AHU. That would likely give you the highest level of comfort.
 
This is a split unit...Air handler will be in crawl space (tall crawl, about 7' on downhill side, will have concrete in partial for utilities and misc junk storage).

I'm going to meet with the hvac guy soon. My general -- that gathered the quotes, and isn't an hvac guy -- explained the 4/5 ton spec difference as with the two-stage compressor with variable speed, it will run in 'low' gear most of the time, unless a heavy heating or cooling load (temp extremes), then kicks into high. That unit will also work at a lower outside temp before having to kick on auxiliary heat. We'll see how the real hvac guy explains it.

I'll talk with him about 2 units, too. Actually, there is one hallway where I could place a door, basically totally divide the house between public and commonly used private areas. With the exception of the guest room and bath being on the "public" side, which will be great anyway when we are off travelling and have a house sitter in....we could cut the private side way back, they'd have about 1300 sf at 'normal temps'.
 
shawn said:
he might have to get the bigger unit to get the fancy controls and pumps... or the multistage part of the controls might step at levels that don't work well with the loads.
Click to expand...
This
Trane factory won't let you combine (some) units like they use to in order to meet the energy code SEER requirements.

I.E. you cannot pair a 3 ton unit with a 3 ton condensor because that will only merit 13 SEER. You HAVE to pair a 3 ton unit with a 3.5 ton CU in order to get above the min required 14 SEER on single phase units. This USE to only affect 3 phase, but Jan code changes made it applicable to single phase under 5 tons.
 
kaiser715 said:
I'll talk with him about 2 units, too. Actually, there is one hallway where I could place a door, basically totally divide the house between public and commonly used private areas. With the exception of the guest room and bath being on the "public" side, which will be great anyway when we are off travelling and have a house sitter in....we could cut the private side way back, they'd have about 1300 sf at 'normal temps'.
Click to expand...

Sounds similar to our layout. I don't think you necessarily need a door to separate the parts of the house. But as an example, at our house in the winter, the south end of the house has a lot more internal heat load (fireplace, cooking, refrigerators, TV, home theater equipment, computers/printers, etc), and a lot more solar gain, so the heating requirements are less. The bedrooms have less solar gain, more north wind, less internal sources of heat generation, etc, so need more heat from the HVAC system. In the summer/cooling mode, the whole situation flips.
 
CasterTroy said:
Multi Zone Ductless Mini Split Heat Pump System with ceiling cassette/single CU FTMFW
Click to expand...

See... that's the kind of dumb shit that a Mechanical Engineer would suggest....

Because they're the only ones that like looking at cassettes.
 
Talk to @WARRIORWELDING , I bet he'll cut you a great deal on a slightly-used Frankenstein system ;-)

/nothing useful to add
 
Nothing to add other than what has already been said, but I will say that 3 years ago I replaced my unit with a nice American Standard (Trane) unit and every year since it has died. Granted, it is under "warranty" but that only covers parts. Last year it leaked all the refrigerant out because of a manufacturing defect. No parts to replace, that cost me a bunch out of pocket for labor and refrigerant which isn't covered. Last week my fan motor burned up. And I don't mean like "damn, it isn't working, it burned up" I mean my wife called me in a panic because the house was full of smoke, luckily she was smart enough to turn off the unit. The motor and fan were black and warped, literally burned up. Fan and motor replaced under warranty, I still had to pay labor and to clean the unit up inside.

The sad part is that Trane units are still probably the better of the units out there. New stuff just sucks.
 
You didn't buy a Trane. You bought an American Standard.
 
I went with goodman for our systems we replaced almost 2 years ago and am very pleased with them. Chose them because the guys i chose to do the work are a Trane and Goodman dealer and they said hands down for dependability and warranty (lifetime compressor)go Goodman. They could have installed the Trane units and charged me 60% more but the guy was honest with me.
 
We used to have a neighbor with a Goodman system. You could hear it from a mile off.
 
I'll second a Goodman mine was installed in my house around 10 years ago and is going strong and is quieter than the neighbors

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 
shawn said:
If it were the same shit, it would say TRANE on the side of it.
Click to expand...
My AS unit takes a trane mother board, a trane compressor etc.
But why does a chevy truck say GMC on the front
 
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I'm coming up on my 3rd. year of an American Standard, original parent co. of Trane, as I understand it. Yes, like Chevy & Gmc. AS is now the less expensive of the two. I haven't had the first complaint. It's a 2 ton, 17 series, 2 stage, & variable speed. I cut my heating/cooling cost by 30-40%, over my 30yo system. I also bought an extended warranty, which I don't remember the cost, but my total was $6650. And much of the cost had to do with the contractor, but he was $1500- $3000, Less, than 3 other quotes. Carrier & Trane dealers. During my research, I found that Goodman, & even Trane, sell a Cheap model, generally found in starter Homes, but they Also sell Very Good models, if you pay for it. Goodman has a High Rating, on their High End products. Most products seem to be this way. You want Cheap, or Quality?
 
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