Non-Competition Buggy builder feeler

zubz said:
Matt,
I think you have a good conceptual idea. However, $4500 will never work in reality. Not trying to be a wet noodle but realistically you will not be able to build and put together this project for that. At least not to the point where you are wanting to be.

One major point you are gonna have to deal with is the fact that you are going to have to find a good, dependable supply for the motor/tranny setup. If someone is buying a brand new toy for $4500 they are not gonnna want the 100K mile motor/tranny you can buy for $500.

What are you going to do for suspension and steering? Full hydro?? That is $500-750 easy right there. If mech, you are gonna need to find a source for excellent condition boxes and that will be at least $500 with shaft, column, box, etc. What about suspension??? Links and joints adds up fast. Leafs can to if you have to buy aftermarket......Used would not work for your target market.......

Building a "Like New" set of axles with gears/lockers and a JY housing(assuming you can find a super cheap, good supply) will be at least $1000(gears, lockers, new brakes, bearings, etc.).

Figure $2K for a set of Beadlocks and Tires........at a minimum if you are using new.

Driveshafts???? $500 at least......

I haven't even talked about the chassis yet.......

Just trying to be realistic because I don't want to see you get a bunch tied up in this without it being realistic and it turning into one of those projects both of us have dealt with in the past.......;)

HTH
Andy
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You bring up a lot of good points, most I've already considered, others I haven't. As far as the suspension, you know me, I like to keep stuff simple and low cost so leafs in the front and rear or a 1 link rear is what I was shooting for to keep it simple and flexible (I hadn't made up my mind yet - I'll see in the prototype). Coil-overs are cool, but add a lot of cost as you mentioned.

You are correct that whatever is bought for the prototype will have to be bought also for future models, so it will have to be a reliable renewable source. As far as beadlocks go, I haven't needed them yet in almost 10 years of wheeling, and while I still consider myself to be somewhat of a nivice, I wouldn't expect that on a starter chassis one would require them either. They could be added as an additional cost item, though.

Driveshafts will add to the cost, but they don't necessarily have to be bulletproof Tom Woods shafts. I'm working with a powertrain that will not be high horsepower, so stock parts will be acceptable. If I feel after testing that it will need to go bigger, I'll address it at that point. Again, unlike the $25,000 rig on the first page of this thread, I will not expect to be able to put it in the hands of Chris Durham on a UROC course and expect him to not bust something. This isn't that type of rig. I would expect that a sensible driver will be able to navigate it through just about whatever Uwharrie and similar trails can throw at it.


Steering will be kept simple since the tires will be 33's or smaller. Just the usual power steering for this light of a buggy. No need for fancy full hydro, and no need for rear steer. This isn't a comp buggy. When's the last time you needed rear steer at Uwharrie?

I whole-heartedly agree that I don't want this to turn into one of "those" projects that we've dealt with. I'm trying to do as much research as possible prior to jumping in head first. I will first build a proto-type to make sure the project is feasible. If it's not, I may re-align the numbers to where I can be profitable and marketable. If that is not possible, I have just built a big toy to use in the back yard (arocky/hilly acre and a half backing up to some powelines) and Uwharrie for myself.
 
You keep saying URE. Please understand that, while URE is a wondeful place if you live there, to negotiate the entire trail system, you need to be able to ride on the main roads too, which means street legal. I think anyway. I know some on here have got tickets for not having a registed vehicle. But URE goers are just a small target audiance. Tellico, well it would need to be built to run those trails. Robinsville, the smae goes there. Mountain City, there again, there are some tough trails there too. 33 and smaller tires would mean you would have to run small axles, meaning toyota's which are tough, Zuki or so on. Like Andy said need to figure the cost, and supply. The cage it's self to be able to duplicate would mean a jig built for every single peice. So that it is a true production frame.
Let's explore costs
This is just guesstimate of costs
Axle Free, ring gears, install kits, new outer bearings and seals and such. You are looking at $500 to $600 each end. so say $1200 add lockers, another $600 easy, so we are at $1800 give or take.
If you go leafs all four corners which is the cheapest I think, you are looking at at least $400 for springs, add in shackles, and spring mounts. another $150 so now we are up to $2350.
Shocks, add in another $200, now up to $2550. U-bolts and spring plates, Lets say another $100 so now we are at $2650.
Wheels, will run you $250 for five easy, simple, non beadlocked spokers. Tires, a set of TSL's would be $600 easy for 33" . so we are up to $3500. Drive shafts if you bought used ones, cut the down(which is cheaper than lengthening) and put in new bearings, most any shop is gonna charge at least $125 each end, so another $250, bring you up to $3750. Two cheap racing seats, harnesses add in another say $300 up to $4050. Fuel cell, you can buy no name brand, 11 gal for around $150, so we are up to $4200.
So as we are now We have no engine, transmission, transfercase, or a frame. Not to mention steering, brakes, mastercylinder, switches, pedals, Radiator, Powersteering box, altenator, powersteering pump, Battery(s) winch plate, And only $300 left in projected budget to do all this.
Keep in mind we are not trying to discourage you from doing this. But you do need to set down figure componants and costs, and then come up with a sale price. As was said above, you can fill it full of used parts and expect people to jump at it. It has to be at least new/rebuilt.
 
upnover said:
You keep saying URE. Please understand that, while URE is a wondeful place if you live there, to negotiate the entire trail system, you need to be able to ride on the main roads too, which means street legal. I think anyway. I know some on here have got tickets for not having a registed vehicle. But URE goers are just a small target audiance. Tellico, well it would need to be built to run those trails. Robinsville, the smae goes there. Mountain City, there again, there are some tough trails there too. 33 and smaller tires would mean you would have to run small axles, meaning toyota's which are tough, Zuki or so on. Like Andy said need to figure the cost, and supply. The cage it's self to be able to duplicate would mean a jig built for every single peice. So that it is a true production frame.
Let's explore costs
This is just guesstimate of costs
Axle Free, ring gears, install kits, new outer bearings and seals and such. You are looking at $500 to $600 each end. so say $1200 add lockers, another $600 easy, so we are at $1800 give or take.
If you go leafs all four corners which is the cheapest I think, you are looking at at least $400 for springs, add in shackles, and spring mounts. another $150 so now we are up to $2350.
Shocks, add in another $200, now up to $2550. U-bolts and spring plates, Lets say another $100 so now we are at $2650.
Wheels, will run you $250 for five easy, simple, non beadlocked spokers. Tires, a set of TSL's would be $600 easy for 33" . so we are up to $3500. Drive shafts if you bought used ones, cut the down(which is cheaper than lengthening) and put in new bearings, most any shop is gonna charge at least $125 each end, so another $250, bring you up to $3750. Two cheap racing seats, harnesses add in another say $300 up to $4050. Fuel cell, you can buy no name brand, 11 gal for around $150, so we are up to $4200.
So as we are now We have no engine, transmission, transfercase, or a frame. Not to mention steering, brakes, mastercylinder, switches, pedals, Radiator, Powersteering box, altenator, powersteering pump, Battery(s) winch plate, And only $300 left in projected budget to do all this.
Keep in mind we are not trying to discourage you from doing this. But you do need to set down figure componants and costs, and then come up with a sale price. As was said above, you can fill it full of used parts and expect people to jump at it. It has to be at least new/rebuilt.
Click to expand...

I mentioned Uwharrie because that's what I'm familiar with. It's possible that my design will be just fine for Tellico and other trail systems, but the main goal is milder trails. I know that some of the trail systems in Tellico are not as extreme, but if I say that I'm building them for Tellico, people get the idea that these are extreme buggies, which they are not. Make sense? Ultimately, I leave it to the customer to use their own common sense with what's built. I know that there are people that have taken stock YJ's and TJ's to Tellico and run some trails without incident or injury. Whatever I build will be way more safe as a showroom stock vehicle.

As far as used stuff, anything used that I put on one will be rebuilt to new specs. I plan on any engine/powertrain components being rebuilt and everything will be presentable as rebuilt stuff can be. I don't plan on building it with a bunch of crap parts. It will be good stuff, just not all brand new. There will be enough new parts (i.e. seats, pedal assemblies, switches and guages, etc...) but I'm for sure keeping it simple. This will be something I'm proud of, or I won't market it. If that means I have to jump the price up to cover my costs plus profit margin, so be it. I won't cut corners on safety, but at the same time, I'm not planning on competing with the $25,000 buggy market with a tube frame that looks like a metal coffin.
 
This is actually "interesting" in that I think custom ATVs are going to start happening soon, sorta like how the Jeep scene went buggy crazy lately.

Basically an ATV with 33s would be HUGE compared to their "big" 27 and 28" tires now. Adding a small cage for rollovers and wahlah. They start snapping shafts at that level, so the question would be mating chromolys to their current diffs and...

In other words, take a good look at an atv, maybe pull the plastic and look at the frame and then ask yourself, how could it run 33s...

Could I stretch the frame, moving front axle fwd, rear back? (new dshafts) Many of em are IFS, IRS now...can you adopt some current jeep axle to use on them? (What is their spline count/axle size, etc in their diffs?)


just my .02....

I
 
SHINTON said:
This is actually "interesting" in that I think custom ATVs are going to start happening soon, sorta like how the Jeep scene went buggy crazy lately.
Click to expand...

I was in Oak Ridge, TN last weekend, just a couple of miles from Coal Creek/Windrock. All I saw were these huge ATV type rigs. Mostly Yamaha but some custom Dihatsu rigs too. I think the Dihatsu was actually a casket/tombstone mover from some cemetary :) They were bigger than ATVs but not as large as a Jeep. Some with full cages, buggy like, some with cabs and smaller cages. Talked with a couple of guys and they have all the gearing, locking, tire options, etc like full size rigs. One guy had 3 on one trailer :) Looked like fun to me!
 
SHINTON said:
This is actually "interesting" in that I think custom ATVs are going to start happening soon, sorta like how the Jeep scene went buggy crazy lately.

Basically an ATV with 33s would be HUGE compared to their "big" 27 and 28" tires now. Adding a small cage for rollovers and wahlah. They start snapping shafts at that level, so the question would be mating chromolys to their current diffs and...

In other words, take a good look at an atv, maybe pull the plastic and look at the frame and then ask yourself, how could it run 33s...

Could I stretch the frame, moving front axle fwd, rear back? (new dshafts) Many of em are IFS, IRS now...can you adopt some current jeep axle to use on them? (What is their spline count/axle size, etc in their diffs?)


just my .02....

I
Click to expand...

At first, I did a lot of looking at off-road go-carts, but couldn't find ANY that were 4WD. To me, that's key. I figure a good mix of ATV parts and go-cart parts could assemble what I'm talking about, but the roll cage would be the issue. That and gearing.

Matt
 
I think if you were to offer a two seater with a torquey little motor and a flexy suspension you could charge waaaay more than 4500 for it. I always wanted to try to build something like that using an aircooled VW motor and transaxle combination.
 
TheGeneral said:
I think if you were to offer a two seater with a torquey little motor and a flexy suspension you could charge waaaay more than 4500 for it. I always wanted to try to build something like that using an aircooled VW motor and transaxle combination.
Click to expand...


OK.... Now I want to ask everyone what they think "the market will bear"...


What would you consider to be an acceptable price range assuming the following:

Rebuilt 4 cyl EFI motor (somewhere between 1.0 and 1.6 liter displacement)
Samurai transmission and t-case (rebuilt as well with 4.89:1 t-case gears)
New clutch
Rebuilt and refurbished Samurai axles with stock gears, choice of spool or lock right in rear
Leaf Sprung with power steering setup
33" Swamper LTB or BFG MT tires on 8" non-bead locked rockcrawler rims
Tube frame/ Full cage built to withstand punishment seen on non-extreme trails
Simple guages such as temp, oil pressure and battery amps. Maybe a tach.
Push button start with fuel pump and ignition switches
2 Poly Racing seats and 4 or 5 point harnesses
Fuel cell and EFI pump
New Radiator with electric fan
Air Conditioning (just kidding)
Exhaust with muffler and tailpipe
Headlights and brake lights
Shocks
Battery


How much would YOU pay?
 
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