notches in deck cantilever supports

RatLabGuy

You look like a monkey and smell like one too
Joined
May 18, 2005
Location
Churchville, MD
My parents recently had their deck redone, and they extended it 2' past the original rim joist.
I was quite surprised to see the guys put in these diagonal braces for the cantilever, then notched the crap out of it, presumably to give a surface to put the lower bolt in.

Is this normal? I'm no ME, but that seems like a bad place to be notching things.
IMG_20191110_165619212.jpg
 

kaiser715

Doing hard time
Joined
Jun 1, 2006
Location
Pocket, NC
Did they actually cantilever new joists an extra 2', or just add on 2' and it's hanging off the original header/beam?

EDIT, NEBERMIND THAT... the more I look at that pic, the more confused I get. Joists parallel to the beam, sort of? A 2x4 that looks like it's on the flat?

On the brace, all they had to do was take a spade bit and make a flat big enough for the bolt and washer to sit flat.
 
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Futbalfantic

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2006
Location
Charlotte
Did they actually cantilever new joists an extra 2', or just add on 2' and it's hanging off the original header/beam?

EDIT, NEBERMIND THAT... the more I look at that pic, the more confused I get. Joists parallel to the beam, sort of? A 2x4 that looks like it's on the flat?

On the brace, all they had to do was take a spade bit and make a flat big enough for the bolt and washer to sit flat.

For sure a flat 2x4 but it’s 16”oc so that should matter for the planking
 

Futbalfantic

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2006
Location
Charlotte
What’s weird to me. Going from close to far. #1 doesn’t have a hanger #2 does #3 does not. And why is there a hanger than to being with.
 

RatLabGuy

You look like a monkey and smell like one too
Joined
May 18, 2005
Location
Churchville, MD
Did they actually cantilever new joists an extra 2', or just add on 2' and it's hanging off the original header/beam?

EDIT, NEBERMIND THAT... the more I look at that pic, the more confused I get. Joists parallel to the beam, sort of? A 2x4 that looks like it's on the flat?

On the brace, all they had to do was take a spade bit and make a flat big enough for the bolt and washer to sit flat.
OK just to clear up some confusion...
- It was a complete teardown and replacement. As I understand it only the vertical posts were saved. The primary sleepers are 2' longer than they used to be.So it is a true cantilever and not just a tack on extension.
- I think the angle may be deceiving. The joists are running up/down in this view, so they are perpendicular to the decking boards. The boards you see running left-right are the ends of the joist "boxes" that butt up against each other, thats 8' between them. As far as I can tell, its typical deck framing.
- The flat 2x is just a spacer, I assume like a stiffener or a spreader. The outer joist spacer has them ~ every 4 ft.

If there is something odd here, I'd love to know, but I'm not seeing it (yet). Dad is a retired ME and usually very particular about these things. I was surprised how nonchalant he was about how they cut into the diagonal supports.
 

RatLabGuy

You look like a monkey and smell like one too
Joined
May 18, 2005
Location
Churchville, MD

a_kelley

mechanical fixer
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Location
Rutherfordton
Why would you have to brace a cantilevered deck to begin with? Isn't the point of cantilever to not need to move or add supports? Also normally joists run perpendicular to the house, not framed boxes with joists parallel, but I have seen that done.
 

RatLabGuy

You look like a monkey and smell like one too
Joined
May 18, 2005
Location
Churchville, MD
Why would you have to brace a cantilevered deck to begin with? Isn't the point of cantilever to not need to move or add supports? Also normally joists run perpendicular to the house, not framed boxes with joists parallel, but I have seen that done.
To be clear they didn't move or add anything. The only thing "new" here is that the deck boards are 2' longer and the boxes are a matching length.
You are correct that the joists here are parallel to house, and personally I'd prefer perpendicular too. But, it's a wrap around deck, and the other side of the L is perpendicular, so I don't know how you could avoid that w/o having to change the decking direction which would look weird.
 

rockcity

everyday is a chance to get better
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Location
Greenville, NC
To be clear they didn't move or add anything. The only thing "new" here is that the deck boards are 2' longer and the boxes are a matching length.
You are correct that the joists here are parallel to house, and personally I'd prefer perpendicular too. But, it's a wrap around deck, and the other side of the L is perpendicular, so I don't know how you could avoid that w/o having to change the decking direction which would look weird.

I hear what you are saying. But, it all still looks questionable. I’d still question the contractor on it especially if he thinks notching knee braces like that is acceptable.
 

shawn

running dog lackey of the oppressor class
Administrator
Joined
Mar 13, 2005
Location
Raleigh, NC
I see all kinds of sketchy shit in that picture. Code doesn't allow you to cantilever a 2x8 by two feet and then hang joists from it.

Tear it down and start over
 

87TPIYJ

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 12, 2016
Location
Jacksonville FL
Still trying to figure out why they are even notched? Why make the extra cuts for no reason except to weaken it?
 

JSJJ388

GREEN GREMLIN
Joined
Aug 31, 2016
Location
HAMPTONVILLE, NORTH CAROLINA
I'm guessing here, but it looks to me like they notched it to have a spot to install a lag screw?
Typically you would just use a spade bit and make a shallow hole.
 

JSJJ388

GREEN GREMLIN
Joined
Aug 31, 2016
Location
HAMPTONVILLE, NORTH CAROLINA
I'm not a carpenter, but from a structural design standpoint, I ain't coming to no cookouts on that patio lol.
 

RatLabGuy

You look like a monkey and smell like one too
Joined
May 18, 2005
Location
Churchville, MD
Does the deck need to be permitted in your area?
This is out on Lake Gaston, middle of nowhere. Warren County. I don't know if it's required, but my parents usually do things by the books, get permits, etc. I know they did for their garage and all the other work they've done there.
And thats the thing, if it was permitted, it was inspected, at least in theory, and done to code, at least in theory. But, who knows. They very well may not have.
 

Fabrik8

Overcomplicator
Joined
May 27, 2015
Location
Huntersville
And thats the thing, if it was permitted, it was inspected, at least in theory, and done to code, at least in theory. But, who knows. They very well may not have.

That's where I was going with that. An inspector may be your best friend on this, to force the contractor's hand. If it's a freestanding deck, things change I'm pretty sure as far as permitting, etc. Any way you slice it, it needs some knowledgeable eyes on it to sort it out for safety and code compliance.
 
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rockcity

everyday is a chance to get better
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Location
Greenville, NC
Permits or not, it looks sketchy. I’d ask the contractor for a copy of the permit. Looks like that County has permit requirements for a deck. At least they have a fee and a section in the application specific to decks/porches.

Again, I’d ask the contractor for a copy of the permit and inspections. If he doesn’t have them, have him obtain and do it right.
 

RatLabGuy

You look like a monkey and smell like one too
Joined
May 18, 2005
Location
Churchville, MD
So just to be clear, what exactly are the concerns? Does it all stem from having the joists running parallel to the main structure, instead of perpendicular, which then results in the outer joist being hung outboard of the cantilever? The cutting of the braces seems egregious, but seem to be mixed opinions on the necessity of them (if the joists were done properly to begin with)?
 
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