Smart home thermostat and other devices?

I'm not running additional wires or installing any smart components other than the thermostat. I'm just giving the buyer a base platform for future expansion.

I may link the fire/CO2 alarms with it but that's about it.

If it's a real pain to set up, well that's on the buyer once they start adding components. So I'm not so worried with that at this time.
 
I could see it being an issue for a rental property. But for a property that is not rental and someone purchases, my concern would be minimal to nill.

Service and warranty is transferable from the HVAC contractor, so if there is any concern, most would pass through to them while pinging me slightly (if any) as the GC.
 
the tstat is the entrance point for hackers...



It is alleged over half of the celeb nudie leaks in the last year have been brute forced through Nest devices...
 
Ron said:
FWIW I looked into putting smart tstats in rental properties ~1.5 years ago.
I sent an email to my lawyer who does all my docs and asked if I could put some language in there specifically regarding the tstat if it was destroyed or potentially allowing me to control it in certain circumstances.
He IMMEDIATELY called me and said "Dont do it or find a new lawyer"...lol and I've known this dude 30 years.

His concern was more the liability of a potential privacy/hack. Even though it wouldnt be your fault jurys are dumb was his advice.
YMMV but Id at least ask the question or have language to CYA since you are a licensed GC and this is a business transaction etc.
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I can agree with the concern. But if in the contract you gave them the option and they signed saying they had read and agreed to the Nest or if disagreed you would install a standard thermostat. Also offer the install of a standard at anytime free of charge if they change their mind about it with safety concerns. Hold harmless contracts are legit and held valid in all courts. The issue is when the contractual Meeting of the minds is not unbiased and fair. Give the options and you have them fairly noticed them with a exit option. Require the hold harmless and then rely on the limited liability statements. I would sleep very comfortable with that.

Regarding the destruction of property in rentals... that's standard language that should be in every average rental agreement. Does t make any legal sense for you to maintain control of the stat. If you're worried about improper use of the heating and cooling system, you state in the contract limitations on the temperature settings. Renters responsible for damages caused by extreme temps. Which wouldn't be a stat control issue and wouldnt be proper to have such control. If it was doable you would have to give notice prior too that you intended to change the settings.

Anyways. The suck of the game is that your security deposit is all you have to make repairs with. If your deposit isnt high enough and it's exceeded, it's hard to get people to pay. And because usually they are already in their new place you can't stick it too them with a bad recommendation. Which is why I'm shocked most LLs don't do biannual inspections.

The biggest issue I see is that smart stats are paired with smartphones. Can they be forced unpaired? It would be unfortunate if a disgruntled renter still had App access and messed with the new renter.
 
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The best stat itself does not have a camera. Iirc. You have to install a separate frequency comparable wireless camera.

Anything is hackable. Your computer and webcam is easily hackable. Any black hat worth his salt has no trouble with off the shelf routers and computer firewalls.

Which raises the issue. The nest would only be hackable through the wifi access. The hacker would have to use the router (renters) at the gateway or else would have to sit outside of the house to do a point to point injection into a disconnected but broadcasting nest. And I'm fairly sure the Nest wifi can be turned off.

The risk is no more so than then when the Internet service comes with the property in the modem already installed. The modem is an access point for hacking.

My humble 2 cents. Anyways.
 
ckruzer said:
Which raises the issue. The nest would only be hackable through the wifi access. The hacker would have to use the router (renters) at the gateway or else would have to sit outside of the house to do a point to point injection into a disconnected but broadcasting nest. And I'm fairly sure the Nest wifi can be turned off.
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It connects to an outside service. That's how you get access to it from your phone.
 
shawn said:
It connects to an outside service. That's how you get access to it from your phone.
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Yes. But is it not correct to say it is only able to access the service via a wifi internet connection? That's how mine is. It doesn't have a standalone 3G/4g service attached. Requires wifi for smartphone use in home or away from home
 
ckruzer said:
Yes. But is it not correct to say it is only able to access the service via a wifi internet connection? That's how mine is. It doesn't have a standalone 3G/4g service attached. Requires wifi for smartphone use in home or away from home
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You're missing the point. The Nest connects to a 3rd party server via the router. The hacker goes to that 3rd party server, not directly to your wifi. Nest could be connected to the router via a damn cable (yes I know they don't) and it would be equally hackable. The security flaw in all of these things is that they involve a 3rd party to connect things together. The only way to make it truly secure is for it to communicate within your own LAN.
 
kaiser715 said:
I've wondered about those learning/programmable thermostats....seems to me, if you are dropping the temp twice a day (overnight, then when off to work), say, six degrees....then when you get up/get home, the heat pump has to work harder to replace that heat, maybe the heat strips getting triggered. Wouldn't that energy used in recovery offset the savings of having the temp cut back from 72 to 76? It's not just the air that's drops to 66 degrees, but all the objects in the room that have to come back up.

(Also thought it was funny, in the link above....one of the pics shows their thermostat mounted directly above a floor register.)
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I installed a Honeywell Wi-Fi last year. First off, the Wi-Fi is a complete novelty. I bought it mostly because my heat pump doesn't automatically switch from heat to cool, and I wanted to be prepared for extended stays out of town, so I could switch it from my phone if I needed to. I haven't had to do that a single time. The Honeywell has the WORST vacation mode which locks you out completely until you change it manually or return on your designated date, which is stupid.

Anyways, to your original question, I think it's negligible with an old heat pump like mine, but could be worth while with more efficient newer models. I tried keeping my temp. at 67 and drop to 65 while I'm away or asleep. I've read that a 3 degree drop or more is what gets the aux. heat kicking, but I don't honestly know. I noticed a 20-30 dollar bump in my electric bills this winter. I kept the house at 65 when I was home, down to 63 when was away last winter with it. IMO, I don't think it saved me a bunch of money, but I was much more comfortable this winter, totally worth 30 dollars a month extra. My heat strips didn't trigger near as much, really only with below freezing temperatures and when it kicked to defrost, but it spent more time running than it did at 65, but I contribute that to a 13 year old heat pump more than anything else.
 
Macdaddy4738 said:
I installed a Honeywell Wi-Fi last year. First off, the Wi-Fi is a complete novelty. I bought it mostly because my heat pump doesn't automatically switch from heat to cool, and I wanted to be prepared for extended stays out of town, so I could switch it from my phone if I needed to. I haven't had to do that a single time. The Honeywell has the WORST vacation mode which locks you out completely until you change it manually or return on your designated date, which is stupid.

Anyways, to your original question, I think it's negligible with an old heat pump like mine, but could be worth while with more efficient newer models. I tried keeping my temp. at 67 and drop to 65 while I'm away or asleep. I've read that a 3 degree drop or more is what gets the aux. heat kicking, but I don't honestly know. I noticed a 20-30 dollar bump in my electric bills this winter. I kept the house at 65 when I was home, down to 63 when was away last winter with it. IMO, I don't think it saved me a bunch of money, but I was much more comfortable this winter, totally worth 30 dollars a month extra. My heat strips didn't trigger near as much, really only with below freezing temperatures and when it kicked to defrost, but it spent more time running than it did at 65, but I contribute that to a 13 year old heat pump more than anything else.
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I'm sure that vacation mode lockout thing is a "feature", somebody's idea of security, lol.

re: the 3 deg differential to kick on the strips - that is usually controlled by the t-stat. when you have a dual-mode system usually on the old analog devices there's a dip switch you select to set what the degree differential is to kick it on. Likewise, with the "smart" all-digital ones you can (theoretically) set the kick-on differential too.

Keep in mind comparing one year to the next, you have to check your changes in rate per kWh. Rarely are prices identical now compared to last year, so be sure you adjust for that. Also this winter has generally been more mild than last year.
Actually quantifying $$ saved from these things can be really hard due to those kinds of factors.
But IMO the "comfort" issues due to it keeping it feeling even are equally important.
 
I went with ecobee. It has remote room temperature sensors which helps keep a better average temp azure which so far I really like. I don't care what temperature the hallway is. this tracks the bedroom temperatures and can control humidity. Like I said so far I really like it.
 
RatLabGuy said:
You're missing the point. The Nest connects to a 3rd party server via the router. The hacker goes to that 3rd party server, not directly to your wifi. Nest could be connected to the router via a damn cable (yes I know they don't) and it would be equally hackable. The security flaw in all of these things is that they involve a 3rd party to connect things together. The only way to make it truly secure is for it to communicate within your own LAN.
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No im not. I'm stating that if there is no wifi there is no third party connection. If no wifi no reasonable injection points. The router is installed by the renter. The renter would have to willful,y choose to connect the nest to their wifi. The renter would have to willfully purchase a compatible nest camera to the wifi system and sync with the nest stat.

The point I'm making is all the hacking risks happen AFTER the renter makes willful decisions to reduce their comsec.

Also in regards to my earlier question. Yes you can hard reset the nest and lock out a previous renter from access via their app. It can be reset anew each time for a new renter as a new device. Verified on my nest.
 
We put in the Nest in the office space at the new building when we did the renovation. Not sure what our baseline is set to but heat ramps up about 7am in the winter and shuts off around 6pm. When it snowed and was super cold one of the web designers fired it up early from her phone since it got down into the single digits. Same for AC in the summer. Necessary, no. Convenience, yes. ROI probably break even. The shop/warehouse space still uses standard thermostats but that may change once we build out the divider walls for the shop to separate it from the install area and crate storage.
 
braxton357 said:
All in all its a real pain in the dick to set up where it's really helpful at all but it is good for being lazy and looking cool.
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There it is!

ckruzer said:
in my honest opinion, things dont have to work as labeled for this generations buyers to want it. logic is out the window and as long as your marketing is top notch, and the aestetics are pleasing, and it has a smart tech feature - they want it.
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Merica!
 
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