'Splain this

kaiser715

kaiser715

Doing hard time
Joined
Jun 1, 2006
Location
7, Pocket, NC
Left 2 water bottles in car overnight. Temp got to 9* for about 4 hours. Got in car at 25* this morning. One bottle was froze solid, the other no ice at all. Why?


(Both bottles unopened. Unfrozen one is a slightly heavier plastic.)

1b69808505e34f2ef3d72b1fd5f84a91.jpg


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 
I'm no chemist, but the unfrozen one has Calcium Chloride on the ingredient list, which sounds like something that doesn't freeze easily.
 
The heavier duty bottle could be under higher pressure, which might be lowering the freezing point a little bit. The additives probably aren't going to affect much, as they're probably similar. At 9degF, they should both be freezing at very close to the same temperature. So probably nothing to do with the differences of the water itself.

BUT

It's possible to supercool the liquid, which basically means that it's below freezing but there hasn't been anything to start the nucleation of ice crystals, so it's still a liquid. The thinner bottle has frozen, which is probably something to do with a little condensation inside that bottle, which is likely under lower pressure or maybe started at a different temperature than the other bottle. One bottle can create condensation and not the other, even though they reach the same temperature very fast inside the car.

Same thing with a super-saturated solution of salt water; if you drop a single grain of salt in the saturated salt solution, it can nucleate the precipitation reaction and a shitload of salt will rapidly fall out of solution as salt crystals.

So if this happens again overnight tonight, open the unfrozen bottle. It will likely almost immediatly turn to slush, as the pressure change and outside air will trigger the nucleation. Shaking the bottle sometimes works too, but it looks pretty clean without anything at the top to trigger the nucleation.

That's my theory. Supercooling is pretty cool shit. You can probably replicate this in the freezer in the house.

Science, bitches. That may be the nerdiest post I've ever written here.
 
Fabrik8 said:
So if this happens again overnight tonight, open the unfrozen bottle. It will likely almost immediatly turn to slush, as the pressure change and outside air will trigger the nucleation. Shaking the bottle sometimes works too, but it looks pretty clean without anything at the top to trigger the nucleation.

That's my theory. Supercooling is pretty cool shit. You can probably replicate this in the freezer in the house.

Science, bitches. That may be the nerdiest post I've ever written here.
Click to expand...

So that is why sometimes my beer turns to slush as soon as I crack the can. Trying to chug beer slush before it spills all over the floor in my shop sucks. Can’t waste beer. I keep my beer fridge at 30*
 
Fabrik8 said:
It's possible to supercool the liquid, which basically means that it's below freezing but there hasn't been anything to start the nucleation of ice crystals, so it's still a liquid.
Click to expand...

I have seen this first hand....and watched a bottle of water go from a liquid state to frozen in seconds (once stimulated)

Side note....ex-wife use to go from stable to a frozen state in seconds as well
 
Another possible cause...
the two bottles were filled at different temperatures. Then vac sealed. The resulting ambient change changed the pressure inside the bottle. Obviously pressure affects freezing boiling temp.
 
This is an easy one, it is based on the pressure within the atmosphere of Earth (or that of another planet). In most circumstances atmospheric pressure is closely approximated by the hydrostatic pressure caused by the weight of air above the measurement point. As elevation increases, there is less overlying atmospheric mass, so that atmospheric pressure decreases with increasing elevation. Pressure measures force per unit area, with SI units of pascals (1 Pa = 1 N/m2). On average, a column of air one square centimetre [cm2] (0.16 sq in) in cross-section, measured from sea level to the top of the Earth's atmosphere, has a mass of about 1.03 kilograms (2.3 lb) and weight of about 10.1 newtons (2.3 lbf). That weight (across one square centimeter) is a pressure of 10.1 N/cm2 or 101 kN/m2 (kPa). A column 1 square inch (6.5 cm2) in cross-section would have a weight of about 14.7 lb (6.7 kg) or about 65.4 N.
 
kaiser715 said:
Left 2 water bottles in car overnight. Temp got to 9* for about 4 hours. Got in car at 25* this morning. One bottle was froze solid, the other no ice at all. Why?


(Both bottles unopened. Unfrozen one is a slightly heavier plastic.)

1b69808505e34f2ef3d72b1fd5f84a91.jpg


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...



I was just talking about this with a coworker. Happened to me this morning as well. New bottle froze solid. Bottle that had been in the truck a week, unphased. Both bottles the same brand with the same amount of water in each. Both sitting beside each other in cup holders.

Only difference is one was 1 week newer but possibly from the same case. And the older one's paper label was missing.


Both are natural spring water from the same company. No added ingredients.


Odd.

This is how mine were this morning. Obviously thawed out by now but it's identical. The left bottle was frozen solid, bottle on right had zero ice. Same brands of water and bottles appear identical. Both have same amount of water in them.
IMG_1179.JPG


My only guess is maybe one bottle was at a higher temperature before the night and the temp change wasn't drastic enough to freeze that one bottle.
 
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BigClay said:
This is an easy one, it is based on the pressure within the atmosphere of Earth (or that of another planet). In most circumstances atmospheric pressure is closely approximated by the hydrostatic pressure caused by the weight of air above the measurement point. As elevation increases, there is less overlying atmospheric mass, so that atmospheric pressure decreases with increasing elevation. Pressure measures force per unit area, with SI units of pascals (1 Pa = 1 N/m2). On average, a column of air one square centimetre [cm2] (0.16 sq in) in cross-section, measured from sea level to the top of the Earth's atmosphere, has a mass of about 1.03 kilograms (2.3 lb) and weight of about 10.1 newtons (2.3 lbf). That weight (across one square centimeter) is a pressure of 10.1 N/cm2 or 101 kN/m2 (kPa). A column 1 square inch (6.5 cm2) in cross-section would have a weight of about 14.7 lb (6.7 kg) or about 65.4 N.
Click to expand...

I'll just get the chauffeur to 'splain it.

 
BigClay said:
This is an easy one, it is based on the pressure within the atmosphere of Earth (or that of another planet). In most circumstances atmospheric pressure is closely approximated by the hydrostatic pressure caused by the weight of air above the measurement point. As elevation increases, there is less overlying atmospheric mass, so that atmospheric pressure decreases with increasing elevation. Pressure measures force per unit area, with SI units of pascals (1 Pa = 1 N/m2). On average, a column of air one square centimetre [cm2] (0.16 sq in) in cross-section, measured from sea level to the top of the Earth's atmosphere, has a mass of about 1.03 kilograms (2.3 lb) and weight of about 10.1 newtons (2.3 lbf). That weight (across one square centimeter) is a pressure of 10.1 N/cm2 or 101 kN/m2 (kPa). A column 1 square inch (6.5 cm2) in cross-section would have a weight of about 14.7 lb (6.7 kg) or about 65.4 N.
Click to expand...

This is either a recipe for Meth or the secret grid coordinates to where Luke Skywalker is hiding out.
 
rockcity said:
I was just talking about this with a coworker. Happened to me this morning as well. New bottle froze solid. Bottle that had been in the truck a week, unphased. Both bottles the same brand with the same amount of water in each. Both sitting beside each other in cup holders.

Only difference is one was 1 week newer but possibly from the same case. And the older one's paper label was missing.


Both are natural spring water from the same company. No added ingredients.


Odd.

This is how mine were this morning. Obviously thawed out by now but it's identical. The left bottle was frozen solid, bottle on right had zero ice. Same brands of water and bottles appear identical. Both have same amount of water in them.
View attachment 260475

My only guess is maybe one bottle was at a higher temperature before the night and the temp change wasn't drastic enough to freeze that one bottle.
Click to expand...

In the case of those two opened bottles, all it takes is a food/dirt particle or whatever (from opening it and drinking out of it) in one bottle and not the other in order to start that nucleation reaction and freeze it solid. A wrinkle/crease, etc,. in one bottle is also a nucleation site, similar to a food/dirt particle. Same concept as the etched lines/patterns on the bottom of fancy beer glasses that make the carbonation bubbles form and stream to the top. That's nucleation as well.

If one bottle was at a higher temperature, and one of the bottles was frozen solid, there should have been plenty of time for the other bottle to (at least partially) freeze if that was the only difference. So temperature is not a cause. The conditions inside the air space of the older bottle are probably different than the new bottle though, after reaching equilibrium with a few temperature cycles, etc., over the course of a week.

There are so many little variables that affect freezing and the formation of ice crystals, it's crazy.
 
Fabrik8 said:
The heavier duty bottle could be under higher pressure, which might be lowering the freezing point a little bit. The additives probably aren't going to affect much, as they're probably similar. At 9degF, they should both be freezing at very close to the same temperature. So probably nothing to do with the differences of the water itself.

BUT

It's possible to supercool the liquid, which basically means that it's below freezing but there hasn't been anything to start the nucleation of ice crystals, so it's still a liquid. The thinner bottle has frozen, which is probably something to do with a little condensation inside that bottle, which is likely under lower pressure or maybe started at a different temperature than the other bottle. One bottle can create condensation and not the other, even though they reach the same temperature very fast inside the car.

Same thing with a super-saturated solution of salt water; if you drop a single grain of salt in the saturated salt solution, it can nucleate the precipitation reaction and a shitload of salt will rapidly fall out of solution as salt crystals.

So if this happens again overnight tonight, open the unfrozen bottle. It will likely almost immediatly turn to slush, as the pressure change and outside air will trigger the nucleation. Shaking the bottle sometimes works too, but it looks pretty clean without anything at the top to trigger the nucleation.

That's my theory. Supercooling is pretty cool shit. You can probably replicate this in the freezer in the house.

Science, bitches. That may be the nerdiest post I've ever written here.
Click to expand...

Haha - yea, happens with beer left outside in, oh say 12* weather. People look at me funny when I put the beer on ice in a cooler outside in that kind of weather - it actually keeps it from freezing. Assuming the whole damn thing doesn't turn into a giant monolith of ice/beer/plastic. Not likely in central NC... yet.
 
/dev/yj said:
Haha - yea, happens with beer left outside in, oh say 12* weather. People look at me funny when I put the beer on ice in a cooler outside in that kind of weather - it actually keeps it from freezing. Assuming the whole damn thing doesn't turn into a giant monolith of ice/beer/plastic. Not likely in central NC... yet.
Click to expand...

If the ice isn't completely frozen, it will hold the cooler temperature at the freezing point until completely frozen, then the temp will decrease eventually down to the 12deg outside temp. The water actually releases heat during the phase change from liquid to solid, which is why the temp stays at 32 deg until totally frozen. Beer doesn't freeze at 32deg, because of the alcohol. So yeah, ice makes a good thermal buffer for the beer, especially when the beer is already above freezing and has some heat to release in the cooler.

You're way smarter than all those people who think you're insane for using ice in a cooler with beer. If I saw you do that, I would laugh because you're obviously a badass, and then I'd buy you some beer for the cooler. Because, you know, scientific research.
 
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