state employee furlough

[RatLabGuy]

But let's see... how poorly paid are these teachers? A teacher in Wake County with a Bachelor's Degree, board certification and five years experience makes.... $45k a year. Not too bad, especially if it's a traditional calendar. If they have a Master's, they make just shy of $50k.

Just a note on this. Not sure where you pulled the data from, but base pay for all counties in NC, teacher starting is $30,430; 5 years exp is $35,380.
Counties can add on top of that, but it varies by county, mostly depending on the general wealth of teh area. Wake happens to have one of the highest supplements.

By "board certification" I assume use meant National board cert (NBPTS on scales). This is a totally seperate program that is very difficult to acheive and few can do (<10% success rate), and is expensive to get. Very few teachers are NBPTS, actuall yeasier to get a Masters degree.
Just to make sure we're talking apples/apples here.

 

[johnski]

Just a note on this. Not sure where you pulled the data from, but base pay for all counties in NC, teacher starting is $30,430; 5 years exp is $35,380.
Counties can add on top of that, but it varies by county, mostly depending on the general wealth of teh area. Wake happens to have one of the highest supplements.
By "board certification" I assume use meant National board cert (NBPTS on scales). This is a totally seperate program that is very difficult to acheive and few can do (<10% success rate), and is expensive to get. Very few teachers are NBPTS, actuall yeasier to get a Masters degree.
Just to make sure we're talking apples/apples here.

I have the same question about that salary in Wake. I've got 12 years in, have my NBPTS cetification and make around $45K. Wake's local supplement must be huge. When I had 5 years of experience, I hadn't even broken the $30K barrier.

 

[RatLabGuy]

I have the same question about that salary in Wake. I've got 12 years in, have my NBPTS cetification and make around $45K. Wake's local supplement must be huge. When I had 5 years of experience, I hadn't even broken the $30K barrier.

yeah when we left Forsyth county last year, wife had 9 yrs exp and was barely at $39k.
Seemsl like she started at like $26k back in '99, at least things are improving
For those of you hourly folks, that 30k salary is about $18/hr(that's accounting for 10 mo pay). Remember this is a job requiring 4 yr degree; ave starting salary for 4 year degree is est at $48k, which is actually down from prev years
http://www.collegerecruiter.com/weblog/2009/04/college_class_o.php

I'm sorry, but teachers in NC ARE underpaid, by virtually all standards. Small wonder why there is such a shortage, even when so many people are looking for jobs. Meanwhile up here in MD, pay is ~20% higher. Guess what - much harder to get a teaching job, no shortage, schools can actually be pretty picky.

 

[purpleTJchick]

I have some friends, both work for the state. He is a cop in raleigh and in the early part of this year some people from the main office said "hey, there was a glitch and so many cops got paid too much money over the year, so we are going to take it out all at once" (for the record, there was no way for this cop to know he was getting paid to much because of overtime and other things, he would not take money like that) So they took the entire paycheck plus some of the next (paid once a month) that was about 2 months ago. Just as they were about to recover (because they just got a loan) they learn that both their paychecks are cut 100 bucks, 200 bucks a month for some people that were hardly making it after the last paycut. I will never work for the state.

 

[shawn]

Just a note on this. Not sure where you pulled the data from, but base pay for all counties in NC, teacher starting is $30,430; 5 years exp is $35,380.

So? Still higher than state median. Heck, that's more money than I made straight out of school, and I had to go for five years.

Even in the poorest county, they're better paid than MOST people in the state, they've got good benefits and great job security.

Also, I'm talking median, you're talking national average. They're not the same thing, and national scores will be skewed substantially by region as well.

Johnski, move to Raleigh. You could be making $51,412.50 here.

 

[Ron]

Johnski, move to Raleigh. You could be making $51,412.50 here.

And based on HIS results, he'd still be underpaid.

That is my only real complaint, there is no reward for excellence. I had many teachers whom minimum wage was too much for what they did...But one or two changed my life, and probably many many more lives. They are worth their weight in Gold.

the top 1% of say mechanics easily command 6 figure salaries. The top 1% of teachers may make 60k. I don't have the answer but some form of meritocracy is appropriate.

 

[johnski]

Johnski, move to Raleigh. You could be making $51,412.50 here.

If my bottom line really mattered more than what I've invested in the Kannapolis community over the last 12 years, then I would. I plan to retire from Kannapolis City Schools, no matter what the local supplement is.

 

[Gmachine]

johnski

You, sir, deserve several
Well said.

You deserve for you investment in the future of others! We need more of you!

I'm a senior year away from an elem. ed. degree, but realized I just can't hack teaching and all the red tape. My hat goes off to those that can!

 

[shawn]

And based on HIS results, he'd still be underpaid.
That is my only real complaint, there is no reward for excellence. I had many teachers whom minimum wage was too much for what they did...But one or two changed my life, and probably many many more lives. They are worth their weight in Gold.
the top 1% of say mechanics easily command 6 figure salaries. The top 1% of teachers may make 60k. I don't have the answer but some form of meritocracy is appropriate.

Sure, but government jobs are ill suited to merit-based pay scales. Merit-based means unequal, and unequal can be construed as racist, sexist, etc. That has unknown costs that prudent legislators avoid.

So to summarize the pro-teacher position, teachers are underpaid, despite evidence that they get paid substantially more than most people in North Carolina.

Johnski points out that the pay and benefits for public sector teachers are generally better than those for private sector teachers, suggesting that public school teachers, despite not being paid "enough", are actually paid more than the fair market value of their services. In any event, his salary does seem to be sufficient to prevent him from voting with his feet and pursuing a job in a district that pays 15% more.

Ratlab offered an anecdote about how his wife makes 20% more as an educator in Maryland than she made in North Carolina. He neglects to mention that the cost of living is at least 30% higher in Harford County (the cost of homes alone is more than double). So, apples to apples, she actually makes less money in MD than she did in NC. He doesn't mention whether or not she was required to join the union (MD is not a right to work state), so it's possible that the union is taking another couple of percent out of her pay, depending on what county she's working in.

Am I missing anything?

It still sounds like teachers get paid fairly well for what they do, possibly more than they're actually worth, they're well insulated from external economic fluctuations, and enjoy benefits that are often unavailable to private sector employees.

 

[RatLabGuy]

Sure, but government jobs are ill suited to merit-based pay scales. Merit-based means unequal, and unequal can be construed as racist, sexist, etc. That has unknown costs that prudent legislators avoid.

So to summarize the pro-teacher position, teachers are underpaid, despite evidence that they get paid substantially more than most people in North Carolina.

Johnski points out that the pay and benefits for public sector teachers are generally better than those for private sector teachers, suggesting that public school teachers, despite not being paid "enough", are actually paid more than the fair market value of their services. In any event, his salary does seem to be sufficient to prevent him from voting with his feet and pursuing a job in a district that pays 15% more.

Ratlab offered an anecdote about how his wife makes 20% more as an educator in Maryland than she made in North Carolina. He neglects to mention that the cost of living is at least 30% higher in Harford County (the cost of homes alone is more than double). So, apples to apples, she actually makes less money in MD than she did in NC. He doesn't mention whether or not she was required to join the union (MD is not a right to work state), so it's possible that the union is taking another couple of percent out of her pay, depending on what county she's working in.

Am I missing anything?

It still sounds like teachers get paid fairly well for what they do, possibly more than they're actually worth, they're well insulated from external economic fluctuations, and enjoy benefits that are often unavailable to private sector employees.

You keep bringing up the comparison against the NC median income, but IMO that isn't a real fair basis - it includes all income, anybody w/ a job of any kind. Remove from that dataset folks who don't have a 4 year degree (required for teaching) or non-contract (salaried) positions, and I'd bet you'll find that median to be a whole lot higher.

And I'm curious what "benefits that are often unavailable to private sector employees" you mean, the only I can think of is state-paid medical premiums, woohoo $200/month, but that's ONLY for the employee, adding family members actually costs more than going w/ many other private plans, so for many folks that one often dosn't even pan out.

 

[Reid]

man....i need to be a teacher.

 

[jeepmkcomin]

And based on HIS results, he'd still be underpaid.
That is my only real complaint, there is no reward for excellence. I had many teachers whom minimum wage was too much for what they did...But one or two changed my life, and probably many many more lives. They are worth their weight in Gold.
the top 1% of say mechanics easily command 6 figure salaries. The top 1% of teachers may make 60k. I don't have the answer but some form of meritocracy is appropriate.

I'd have to say I agree completely with this statement.

Look at a lot of high salaried jobs. There are large groups of people in their career path that chose it for the money. You can't just raise all teacher salaries or you get an education system with people that need the money but could care less about their job. I don't want to sum this up to just teachers because it can go for any career field, but think about how monumentally important it is to have a good education in finding a job/career path. There are many people in high salaried jobs that hate their jobs. If those teachers that started off with meager salaries and actually made a difference in the lives of their students were rewarded well for it, think about the impact that could be had on the education system.

FWIW I have had an incredibly intelligent professor that served on the federal reserve board yet was a complete dud in the classroom. He had, and has imo, no reason to be in front of students teaching. Now, granted he has a phd... he is probably making much more money than he should.

 

[hscrugby]

You keep bringing up the comparison against the NC median income, but IMO that isn't a real fair basis - it includes all income, anybody w/ a job of any kind. Remove from that dataset folks who don't have a 4 year degree (required for teaching) or non-contract (salaried) positions, and I'd bet you'll find that median to be a whole lot higher.
And I'm curious what "benefits that are often unavailable to private sector employees" you mean, the only I can think of is state-paid medical premiums, woohoo $200/month, but that's ONLY for the employee, adding family members actually costs more than going w/ many other private plans, so for many folks that one often dosn't even pan out.

No, but one thing people forget about teaching versus other jobs, is HUGE pay discrepancies where you can give raises based on "whatever"

For instance at my last job, my exact title, same basic qualifications, I knew the range, cause I needed it for quotes.
We had one guy making ~28k / year.
We had a lady who worked from home, and sucked at her job, but played politics really well, making ~85k/year.
When we needed help, we paged out to the guy barely making 30k after bonuses etc.

BUT you look at that average, and it seems really high. (57.5k or so)
And you'd say, man, they are blowing away teachers.

Then you look in other things, you get one ceo, making 12,000,000 and 100 people making 25k for an average of ~143k.
So you say, "See teachers are getting screwed, everyone else is making 144k/ year."
No, ONE DUDE is raking it in. 100 people are getting SCREWED and they have 2 weeks off for vacation per year, carry a cell phone and are on call constantly.
PLUS know damn well at any given moment that dude making 12m / year might want a new house and will lay them all off.

So, lies, damned lies, and statistics.

 

[RatLabGuy]

No, but one thing people forget about teaching versus other jobs, is HUGE pay discrepancies where you can give raises based on "whatever"
For instance at my last job, my exact title, same basic qualifications, I knew the range, cause I needed it for quotes.
We had one guy making ~28k / year.
We had a lady who worked from home, and sucked at her job, but played politics really well, making ~85k/year.
When we needed help, we paged out to the guy barely making 30k after bonuses etc.
BUT you look at that average, and it seems really high. (57.5k or so)
And you'd say, man, they are blowing away teachers.
Then you look in other things, you get one ceo, making 12,000,000 and 100 people making 25k for an average of ~143k.
So you say, "See teachers are getting screwed, everyone else is making 144k/ year."
No, ONE DUDE is raking it in. 100 people are getting SCREWED and they have 2 weeks off for vacation per year, carry a cell phone and are on call constantly.
PLUS know damn well at any given moment that dude making 12m / year might want a new house and will lay them all off.
So, lies, damned lies, and statistics.

That's why, as saf-T pointed out, these things are almost always based on a median, instead of a mean. just happens the article I pulled used average. Medians aren't pulled upwards (skewed) nearly so badly by single large values.

FWIW PhDs don't always get paid so well either, esp in colleges - there's a LOT of variance there between public and private schools, some private is actually quite low while others is high - "prestigious" places w/ medical research centers have much better base to pay form than, say, small lib arts colleges. When I was at WFU as a post doc, I was making < my wife who was a teacher. NIH base pay for post doc now is only 40k, I made way less than that.
Unf often in colleges, esp R1 universities, people get the job b/c of their research background and have never set foot in a class as a teacher before... to them the teaching is just something you have to do as part of being a prof and keeping your research apointment.

I agree public school teachers hsouldn't be paid too much, don't want people doing it for greed - but I'm not sure the above argument holds water until you get pretty high up there; look at the states where median pay is higher, they also have higher scores on national rankings.
The thing is, if you have more applicants for jobs, you can be more selective and get people who are more qualified, better trained, and (more importantly afford to fire folks - this keeps the current teachers in check for doing a good job and keeping their job... if you know you can be replaced, you'll be more careful about being sure the chance dosn't come up.
The (sad) truth is, people are willing to put up with more BS if they feel like they're getting compensated for it - and boy is there alot of BS involed in public schools these days.

I love the ideal of "let people teach b/c they love it, not b/c they want $$", but it seems to me that intentionally paying people less just b/c you can get away with it (b/c they still enjoy doing it) is just taking advantage of somebody's pashion (skill).
I'm all for merit-based pay, but implimentation of that on a system-wide scale is a whole (impossible) can of worms.

 

[OnlyOneDR]

It is amazing to me that we have rolled on for two pages about teachers and have missed the point of the thread. Now we are all worried about teachers salaries and what is too little/too much. They get 10 paltry hours off, I had to take 40 in my private sector job on one paycheck. Insulated is a pretty good word that was used earlier.

I have a question, are state employees getting any merit-based increases or cost-of-living increases this year? I will not get any and had a stellar review last year. Oh and my 401k matching contributions were cancelled already this year too. Luckily I am in a productive (billable) role or they would be making me take three more 40-hour leaves without pay (one per quarter) like the rest of the non-productive personnel in my company. Stomach that one, 160 hours off without pay this year for a large chunk of the 76,000 employees that work for my company.

10 hours, oh the horror.

 

[RatLabGuy]

I have a question, are state employees getting any merit-based increases or cost-of-living increases this year?

Nope, at least no COLA.
I know for comm colleges, virtually all travel $$ was/is frozen too, no conferences, workshops, etc