Tankless Water Heater for Home???

Wes

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Location
Ridgeway, SC
I've got a neighbor who's water heater is on it's way out. He's thinking of going to a tankless heater but neither of us have any experience with them. Anyone using one to supply their home? Seems like you'd need a pretty robust one to supply a shower, washer, sinks, dishwasher, etc. for a family all at once. I told him I'd ask around on here to see what the deal was.

Thanks ahead for any input,
Wes
 
Most of the new homes I've looked at around here are going with tankless. Of the handful I've seen, they've all been Rinnai. Rinnai only seems to make natural or propane gas heaters though. Both of these were in larger houses (4,000 sq. ft. plus). One of the homes had a tandem system with a tankless to serve the bathrooms and a standard tank unit to take care of the kitchen. That was a pretty big house though.
 
Yeah, his house is about half the size with a 1 child family. I'll pass the Rinnai name brand on to him, but he definitely needs it to be electric. Thanks for the reply.
 
We have a Rinnai and are very happy with it.
 
They're gas for a reason. Tough to get the temperature delta and GPM where you need it to be without huge amp numbers.

I did the payback calcs on a gas Rinnai vs a gas tank heater a couple of years ago. The tankless never paid for itself.
 
I looked into it briefly for my small house. The whole home units were 40 amp min, and then they only claimed 1 appliance at a time. The gas ones still wanted 20 amps. The prices were high too. My water heater still works, so figured I'd see if they came down some to be more cost effective
 
I have a rinnai. Upgraded to that when I built the house. A standard water heater was going in the garage (can't sacrifice that space). Mine was about an even swap on the upgrade due to the flue and gas piping I saved.

Gas bill runs about 15 a month with two of us.
 
Yeah, we spoke about gas but he's not wanting to depend on a tank since there are no gas lines in our neighborhood.
 
best to go back with a tank heater then, I dont think they make an electric tankless that can supply the demand. I recently just picked one up from a fellow board member for that reason. It's gonna be nice to have hot water in the shop though.
 
Something else to keep in mind. If you're on a well, your incoming water is about 60F year round. If you're on public water (that comes from a lake or river), it could fluctuate between the high 30s and the mid 70s, depending on the time of year. If you're looking at a unit that is capable of a 35F delta at a given gpm, that'll be fine in the summer, but won't keep up in January.
 
Rheem does make both gas and electric tankless heaters. The electric heaters DO work when they are sized correctly but do use quite a bit of power to run. Just remember the tankless heaters are only working when you need water. That's where the savings are. Also best thing to do is put a circulating pump on the far end of the house and keep that hot water in the lines at all time.
 
The recirc pump can go anywhere in the line. Probably best to locate it near the rest of the mechanical equipment, just for simplicity's sake. But the recirc is strictly a luxury thing. Don't expect it to save you any money. It'll burn more in electricity than it'll ever save in water usage.

The other big issue I saw with tankless is that they made more sense in instances where you needed a little bit of hot water, off and on, all day long. Most people, however, have big water demand spikes in the morning and evening (depending on when household members bathe), with a bit of use scattered around the rest of the day, but still concentrated mostly in the morning and evening.

So let's say you have a couple of showers running at the same time first thing in the morning. That's in the neighborhood of 5-6gpm, assuming just a regular low-flow head with no fancy steam showers or anything like that. The biggest Rinnai makes only does 5.5gpm at a 70F delta. So long as nobody is running the washing machine, dishwasher, or washing their hands anywhere else in the house, it'll keep up. But only barely. And you've got to size for that peak demand, even though it's going to sit there unused most of the day.

On the other hand, let's say you've got a 60 gallon standard tank WH. It's going to provide 100-120F water continually for 30 minutes, with some fall-off near the end as the tank temperature drops. But the big tank is super insulated, so once the water is heated to temp, it doesn't really use much energy throughout the day. That is, unless you've got folks in the house using a little bit of water here and a little bit of water there. Washing hands, running the dishwasher, etc, will make a tank heater run more often, since every water use introduces a few gallons of cold water to the tank.

The big energy savings in heating water comes from switching from electric to gas. Period. If you have natural gas at your house, and you're not using it to heat your water, you can "save money" simply by switching to gas when the water heater is due for replacement. That's less true with propane, since propane costs more money for the same energy density.

Depending on the way your house is laid out, there are some hybrid scenarios. Maybe you'd be better off with a small point of use heater at the kitchen and a tank that serves the rest of the house, but again, I doubt anything like that would "save" money. It would mostly be to provide instant hot water, which even a recirc pump can't provide in some instances ("home run" style pex designs, main trunk with long branches, etc).
 
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yep, I looked into this this past summer when our WH started leaking and needed replacement. We have NG so I figured it'd be worth it. Nope!
Long run cost return just wasn't there. Aside from the cost of the unit, you have to consider that it need a major size gas pipe to run it, typically 3/4". Most normal size gas WHs only use 1/2". So in many cases you have to replace the gas lines - and dependning on the current setup/sizing of your meter relative to all your other appliances, you may have to upgrade it - otherwise it's possible that while the instant heater is running, if you furnace and gas clothes dryer kick on at the same time, it could lean one of them out.
In our case we'd be looking at spending nearly as much is gas line upgrades (in my county that's required by a licensed plumber, not DIY homeowner) as for the water heater.

Get a mid-grade regular water heater - and upgrade the anode rods so they'll last longer and save the tank.
 
These are the answers I've been looking for. Thanks a bunch fellas. Hopefully I can steer him back in the right direction. He's got himself talked in to one so this should convince him otherwise.
 
I will throw in my experience here. I just took out an electric tankless to replace it with a tank water heater. Read my sale thread here with link to the water heater info.

http://www.nc4x4.com/forum/threads/tankless-water-heater-for-shop-50.157605/

Now here is my background and experience. Add this to what has been said above. 4 bed, 3 bath house on county water with 2 adults and 1 child 90% of the time (14yo daughter is with us 2 weekends/month). The heater requires 2 240v lines @ 40A each. In the summer, it worked pretty well. In the winter, it worked ok as long as nobody used any hot water while you are taking a shower. If somebody was in the shower and somebody else opened a faucet to use hot water, you ended up with a cold shower. The heater I had was only rated for 2.5 gpm. My showerhead is rated for 2.4 gpm. Any more draw than that and the heater could not produce enough water at the "requred" output temp. It would go into a limp mode and produce NO hot water. Im not gonna go into the technical part of this because Shawn covered it in one of his posts above.

There is a water heater (same brand at Lowes) one size up from the one I just got rid of, but it requires 3 (three) 240v lines. Most houses have 200A panels and Im not gonna put one appliance on my panel that supposedly draws 120A. Dont want to think about my wife cooking, me taking a shower, and the HVAC starting up to kick the main breaker.


IMHO, go gas tankless or electric tank.
 
We have a ranni. Haven't had any problems other than a bad regulator but that is another story. We haven't ran into a situation where we can't supply enough hot water. Only reason we got it was to never run out of hot water, there were no cost savings in mind. I like to wash my truck with hot water when is cold out. I would get it if I had to do it over again. .
 
We talked about the issues he would have when other items drawing hot water were in use. His wife overheard and flipped. She's not down with timing her showers around clothes washing and dishes being done. I think the boss lady has spoken. Her opinion trumps all of ours haha. He's thinking that it's gonna be cost effective but I think he's in for a surprise once he realizes the up front cost. I'll let you guys know how it turns out.
 
From my experience here's my $.02

Ranni is the big name in tankless heaters that most supply houses push but ten years ago I did my homework and found a much cheaper unit that at the time out performed the Ranni for about half the cost. I installed a Takagi brand tankless heater. It can and does run two showers and/or the dish washer simultaneously. The only thing we have ever experienced over 10 years of usage is while taking a shower the temp drops off just a bit, but not go cold, for maybe a minute while the second burner kicks on to compensate for the added draw. I love the fact I've got all the hot water I ever need or want when I want it. I hated having to wait for the water heater to catch up at the in-laws over Christmas.
Quick search and the unit I have can be had for about $500. I don't know about the specs today compared to a decade ago but based on this ones performance I'd have another one without a second thought.
 
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We bought our Rinnai for a few reasons. First, we have a VERY large soaking tub in our master suite. It would probably require two extra large water heaters to fill it. Second, we have dual large shower heads in the shower of the master suite. We also never wanted to run out of hot water. So far we have never run out of hot water or noticed a temperature drop.
 
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