TJ Steering

Fatigue is the wrong argument to pick. Within the elastic limit, steel has about an infinite number of cycles until fatigue. Aluminum is about 1 million. 1 million sound alike a lot until you consider every time a tread block touches the road, its 1 cycle. Regardless, it was not fatigue, but it sheared due to overloading which caused plastic fatigue, or insufficient torque, which would end up failing in the exact same manner, but with different initial reasons.

To stay on topic, the double shear mounts take up a huge amount of clearance, and alter the relation of the trackbar to the axle, which can result in wonky steering if not accounted for.
 
I don't really care if I "win" I just like seeing shawn act like he is the knower of all things and any one who disagrees is an idiot.

I enjoy watching people argue with a straw man.

To each his own, I guess....
 
Fatigue is the wrong argument to pick. Within the elastic limit, steel has about an infinite number of cycles until fatigue. Aluminum is about 1 million. 1 million sound alike a lot until you consider every time a tread block touches the road, its 1 cycle. Regardless, it was not fatigue, but it sheared due to overloading which caused plastic fatigue, or insufficient torque, which would end up failing in the exact same manner, but with different initial reasons.

To stay on topic, the double shear mounts take up a huge amount of clearance, and alter the relation of the trackbar to the axle, which can result in wonky steering if not accounted for.

True, it was the wrong argument to pick. I'm more incline to believe a large load caused the bolt to stretch and then fail rather than it was loose to begin with.
 
Serious question would the fact Shane lost control arm bolt when he went to obx have caused extra stress on the bolt causing it to weaken?

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Single use grade 8 bolt installed and torqued by a professional builder. I do wheel the rig harder than most rigs driven to and from the trails though. I have a double shear frame side mount planned when I get the time.
 
Serious question would the fact Shane lost control arm bolt when he went to obx have caused extra stress on the bolt causing it to weaken?

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IIRC, it came back from a shop after having a bunch of front end work done, and a few days later, a control arm bolt or two fell off. A couple of weeks after that, the track bar bolt sheared.

I think Chris has the right idea. It probably just wore out and broke all on its own.
 
IIRC, it came back from a shop after having a bunch of front end work done, and a few days later, a control arm bolt or two fell off. A couple of weeks after that, the track bar bolt sheared.

I think Chris has the right idea. It probably just wore out and broke all on its own.
You would be wrong about that. 3 link was done about 18 months before the LCA bolt failure. Track bar bolt was over a year after the LCA.
 
That's what I get for quoting anonymous text messages....
 
Post pictures of the bolt, we'll go from there. Otherwise, we're just taking turns posting dumb shit.

Finally found the bolt in my shop.
84B03305-ACD7-448B-BCA9-5F3C36F76306.jpeg
75DA36B9-9A6A-4E57-ADC8-75E1180FA3E3.jpeg
 
Looks like transverse shear to me. Why tf would anyone have to tighten that bolt down so hard? I tighten mine down good with a big wrench and stop there.

I wonder if something got under the head of the fastener and bolt when torqued down and caused an uneven circumferential load on the threads.

Looks to me that bolt was already at high stress from the look of the threads. Are the black lines on the shank of the bolt from the misalignment spacer(s) on the trac bar joint? I really think trac bar bracket thru bolt holes should be reamed to diameter so the fit is tighter. I remember my RE double shear trac bar bracket had stupid tolerance on the bolt holt diameter...


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I really think trac bar bracket thru bolt holes should be reamed to diameter so the fit is tighter. I remember my RE double shear trac bar bracket had stupid tolerance on the bolt holt diameter...

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This^. I reamed mine out so long ago I don't remember much about it but it's clear from my video that the tolerance could be better.
 
All right, I'm back. Sorry for the wait. It's been a long time since I've looked at any of this stuff, but I'll throw out some ideas, and y'all can poke holes in them.

So, here's what we know:

5/8” UNC grade 8 bolt in single shear, frame side track bar bolt on the front axle

According to the owner, the bolt was installed a year (+/-) prior to failure. The bolt is believed to be new at time of install and was not disturbed after initial installation.

The bolt should have a nominal shear strength of somewhere around 25,000# when properly installed, recommended torque value for 5/8" UNC is probably something like 150-175 ft-lbs, at which point it’s going to develop somewhere between 10-20k# in tension along its length. This represents the “normal” condition for this bolt in service.

The loads required to shear the bolt outright are enough to pretzel the front axle, track bar, and anything else connected to them. The stock lower track bar bolt, for example, should shear neatly at about half or 2/3s that load (despite being double shear). Yet we know that it failed. The question at hand is why. The bolt gives us some clues.

The broken face appears to have three distinct zones, roughly divided into thirds – a smooth portion, a rough portion, and a fractured/torn portion. That indicates a specific sort of failure – the smooth portion is what’s left of a crack progression that started at the root of a thread near where the track bar joint meets the frame-side track bar bracket. The rough portion and the fractured/torn portion happened right at (or slightly before) the final failure.

So why did it crack? As you torque a threaded connection like a nut and bolt, the torque value has a roughly linear relationship with the tension in the bolt. The bolt stretches slightly as the torque value increases. The “spec” torque equates to a tension in the bolt that’s about 3/4s of the yield strength of the steel, so if you don’t overtighten the nut, the steel maintains its original yield strength and can be reused repeatedly in most applications. If you tighten a bolt to something less than its specified torque, it can still be “tight”, the bolt will still have stretched, but the tension in the bolt and the clamping force generated by the bolt will be some percentage less than the desired value.

Let’s say a connection must be designed for a load of X, with the fasteners sized to resist a load of 1.5x. Rather than being torqued to 150ft-lbs, the fasteners are only torqued to 75. Now they can only support a load of 3/4X. Since X represents the maximum value that might ever be seen, you might go a long time without ever coming close to it. Sooner or later, you hit a value of .8X, the fasteners allow the connection to stretch or shift (thousandths of an inch being all that’s required), the fastener is subjected to a shear load that is close to the capacity of the bolt at its minor diameter (it’s conceptually like a hitch pin at this point), and a small crack forms at the root of a thread. Subsequent loading causes the crack to progress through the fastener. The bigger the crack, the weaker the fastener, the smaller the load needed to grow the crack. Depending on the intended usage, it might take years for the crack to progress, so it’s not uncommon to see rust in the smooth portion of the face. At some point during that period, if you put a torque wrench on the nut, it might have felt tight, or maybe taken up a bit of slack, but the bolt would have twisted in two long before you got to 150 ft-lbs. I'd bet the witness marks on the bolt shaft were generated during this time. It's hard to tell from the picture, but there might be some flattening on the face of the threads and some galling or witness marks on the face of the bolt head and the face of the nut. If so, those would be evidence that the bolt moved around some before it broke. It doesn't prove or disprove (could be caused by other things as well), but if it's there, it would be consistent with the theory.
 
All right, I'm back. Sorry for the wait. It's been a long time since I've looked at any of this stuff, but I'll throw out some ideas, and y'all can poke holes in them.

So, here's what we know:

5/8” UNC grade 8 bolt in single shear, frame side track bar bolt on the front axle

According to the owner, the bolt was installed a year (+/-) prior to failure. The bolt is believed to be new at time of install and was not disturbed after initial installation.

The bolt should have a nominal shear strength of somewhere around 25,000# when properly installed, recommended torque value for 5/8" UNC is probably something like 150-175 ft-lbs, at which point it’s going to develop somewhere between 10-20k# in tension along its length. This represents the “normal” condition for this bolt in service.

The loads required to shear the bolt outright are enough to pretzel the front axle, track bar, and anything else connected to them. The stock lower track bar bolt, for example, should shear neatly at about half or 2/3s that load (despite being double shear). Yet we know that it failed. The question at hand is why. The bolt gives us some clues.

The broken face appears to have three distinct zones, roughly divided into thirds – a smooth portion, a rough portion, and a fractured/torn portion. That indicates a specific sort of failure – the smooth portion is what’s left of a crack progression that started at the root of a thread near where the track bar joint meets the frame-side track bar bracket. The rough portion and the fractured/torn portion happened right at (or slightly before) the final failure.

So why did it crack? As you torque a threaded connection like a nut and bolt, the torque value has a roughly linear relationship with the tension in the bolt. The bolt stretches slightly as the torque value increases. The “spec” torque equates to a tension in the bolt that’s about 3/4s of the yield strength of the steel, so if you don’t overtighten the nut, the steel maintains its original yield strength and can be reused repeatedly in most applications. If you tighten a bolt to something less than its specified torque, it can still be “tight”, the bolt will still have stretched, but the tension in the bolt and the clamping force generated by the bolt will be some percentage less than the desired value.

Let’s say a connection must be designed for a load of X, with the fasteners sized to resist a load of 1.5x. Rather than being torqued to 150ft-lbs, the fasteners are only torqued to 75. Now they can only support a load of 3/4X. Since X represents the maximum value that might ever be seen, you might go a long time without ever coming close to it. Sooner or later, you hit a value of .8X, the fasteners allow the connection to stretch or shift (thousandths of an inch being all that’s required), the fastener is subjected to a shear load that is close to the capacity of the bolt at its minor diameter (it’s conceptually like a hitch pin at this point), and a small crack forms at the root of a thread. Subsequent loading causes the crack to progress through the fastener. The bigger the crack, the weaker the fastener, the smaller the load needed to grow the crack. Depending on the intended usage, it might take years for the crack to progress, so it’s not uncommon to see rust in the smooth portion of the face. At some point during that period, if you put a torque wrench on the nut, it might have felt tight, or maybe taken up a bit of slack, but the bolt would have twisted in two long before you got to 150 ft-lbs. I'd bet the witness marks on the bolt shaft were generated during this time. It's hard to tell from the picture, but there might be some flattening on the face of the threads and some galling or witness marks on the face of the bolt head and the face of the nut. If so, those would be evidence that the bolt moved around some before it broke. It doesn't prove or disprove (could be caused by other things as well), but if it's there, it would be consistent with the theory.
TL;DR
Shawn thinks it wasn't tight enough.

Without thinking about it at all, and since I like stirring the pot, I would propose that it was overtightened.
 
TL;DR
Shawn thinks it wasn't tight enough.

Without thinking about it at all, and since I like stirring the pot, I would propose that it was overtightened.

If so, it should be elongated and/or have galled the threads under the nut.
 
What's the clamping difference between fine and course thread in 5/8"? I could Google, but we have @shawn.
That track bar comes with a fine thread bolt from RE if it matters.
 
What's the clamping difference between fine and course thread in 5/8"? I could Google, but we have @shawn.
That track bar comes with a fine thread bolt from RE if it matters.

It should be about the same. The torque values are different because thread pitch is different... You get to ease it up to the line a bit, but the cross section of the bolt is still 150ksi and 5/8" diameter. Seems to me that fine threads aren't as deep, so the minor diameter is maybe a bit bigger, but it's not a huge difference.

Mind you, I didn't do the math on any of that stuff. But it should be in the ballpark.

Good point on the hardware, though. If that's not what came from Currie, there might be a QA issue that contributed.
 
What's the clamping difference between fine and course thread in 5/8"? I could Google, but we have @shawn.
That track bar comes with a fine thread bolt from RE if it matters.

The cross sectional area is mostly the same (fine thread is greater), at least when it comes to de-rated, nominal values because grade 8 bolts are a commodity product. Fine threads do have more thread shear area though, so they are stronger in tension. They also need less torque for the same axial preload.

There's a few things missing from this basic discussion of bolts loads though: No one has mentioned the bending moment from having the bolt in single shear while spaced away with the misalignment spacer. There would be less bending load without the spacer, as the point of application of force is now at a lower distance (so less moment). Obviously the misalignment spacer is necessary though, so can't do too much about that.

Also, in the context of adding a double shear bracket, not only do you reduce bending moment on the bolt, you also double the shear capacity of the bolt because there are now two shear sections to resist the shear load instead of one. If the bolt is sized to withstand bending and shear loads while in single shear, the same size bolt is going to live a pampered life with a properly designed double shear bracket (minus things like bracket compliance that reduce the benefits).
 
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