US congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in Arizona

Dunno that it's an ugly side effect, Dave.

I tend to look at it as a feature -- the First Amendment gives you every opportunity to show me exactly what kind of a person you really are.
 
Why didn't they stop him? He had to have stopped and reloaded!

I can't understand why shit like this happens!!!
 
Hyperlite said:
One thing I hate about murderers besides the obvious is how they become the famous ones. Media and the future tends to forget about the victims only showing court cases and news feeds plastering the murderer face all over the place. This makes the perp stick in our heads and we are not even able to put an innocent face to the crimes.
http://www.scpr.org/news/2011/01/10/dodgers-scouts-daughter-killed-arizona-shooting-ra/
So here is a little bit about Christina Taylor Green.
The daughter of a Dodgers baseball scout was one of the people killed Saturday in Arizona. KPCC’s Shirley Jahad tells us more about 9-year-old Christina Taylor Green.
Her life was bracketed by two devastating events. Christina Taylor Green was born on September 11, 2001. She died in the shooting rampage outside the grocery store in Tucson this weekend.
As a baby, she was featured in a book called “Faces of Hope,” which documented a child from each state born on 9/11.
As a third grader, she had just been elected to the elementary school student council.
She wanted to learn about American civic life. Her interest prompted a neighbor to take her to the nearby supermarket to meet her congresswoman, Gabrielle Giffords, a five minute ride from home. That neighbor was also shot several times.
Christina was the only girl on her little league team. She came from a family of baseball lovers.
Her father John Green is a scout for the Dodgers. Her grandfather Dallas Green was a manager for the Phillies bringing Philadelphia to the World Series in 1980.
Dodgers owner Frank McCourt issued a statement saying the team "lost a member of the Dodgers family."
avoices.washingtonpost.com_blog_post_hp1_9_11u.jpg

From top left: Christina-Taylor Green, Dorothy Morris, Judge John Roll, Gabe Zimmerman, Dorwin Stoddard and Phyllis Schneck (AP)
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For all the shit I give, I agree with this post entirely.
 
PinkyXJ said:
Why didn't they stop him? He had to have stopped and reloaded!!
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high capacity clip in the gun, he did stop to reload, that is when a woman behind him knocked the clip out of his hands and he was tackled by a few other guys.

Kudos to those folks who acted when they did, it could have been much worse. ( it's bad enough as it is )

this shit happens real fast, and unless you are conditioned to recognize the events unfolding, you won't react fast enough.

I'm not.
 
I don't mean to be an ass, but something that really annoys me is that it seems like 85% of the news coverage is about Gifford, 9% is about the little girl Christina, maybe 5% to Judge Roll and 1% to the 4 other people that died and virtually nothing about the 12 injured.
I get really frustrated b/c this basically says if you're not a politician or a cute little girl, it's not the same level of "tragedy" for you to be killed in a public massacre. Now we all know that there are people mourning all of these people, they were people's children parents, grandparents, even a great-grandparent, and its just as horrible for all those families.
They talked about this event during my whole drive home tonight on NPR, they did at least have a 60 second bit about the other people. One of them (Zimmerman?) was there with his wife, he died from taking a bullet protecting her with his body, she was hurt but will make it OK. Scheck was a great-grandmother who had spent her whole life supporting her family, and had dropped by just to tell Gifford she was doing a good job.

I do find it interesting that in this thread, the one guy that we all know rails on teh media the most has also pointed this out...
At least Gifford (and to some extent, Roll) was a public official and knew the dangers of her job, she took an oath of office. Not that it makes it any easier or is just a "work hazzard" or something, but at least she knew what the climate was like, etc and was there doing her job anyway.
All these other folks were just showing up to hear a public official speak.

My heart goes out to all those families.
 
RatLabGuy said:
I don't mean to be an ass, but something that really annoys me is that it seems like 85% of the news coverage is about Gifford, 9% is about the little girl Christina, maybe 5% to Judge Roll and 1% to the 4 other people that died and virtually nothing about the 12 injured.
I get really frustrated b/c this basically says if you're not a politician or a cute little girl, it's not the same level of "tragedy" for you to be killed in a public massacre. Now we all know that there are people mourning all of these people, they were people's children parents, grandparents, even a great-grandparent, and its just as horrible for all those families.
They talked about this event during my whole drive home tonight on NPR, they did at least have a 60 second bit about the other people. One of them (Zimmerman?) was there with his wife, he died from taking a bullet protecting her with his body, she was hurt but will make it OK. Scheck was a great-grandmother who had spent her whole life supporting her family, and had dropped by just to tell Gifford she was doing a good job.

I do find it interesting that in this thread, the one guy that we all know rails on teh media the most has also pointed this out...
At least Gifford (and to some extent, Roll) was a public official and knew the dangers of her job, she took an oath of office. Not that it makes it any easier or is just a "work hazzard" or something, but at least she knew what the climate was like, etc and was there doing her job anyway.
All these other folks were just showing up to hear a public official speak.

My heart goes out to all those families.
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I think we are listening to the same thing you are correct. There are a lot of good points on that show besides the fact that they ignore the other victims. The guests and speaker showed that the same angry talk thing happens on or before Okla. City Bombing. It show thing go in cycle for all party’s.... example Bush's aid was on and he said a radio personality gave out his and other's in Bush's cab. home addresses and told them to show up on July 4th with gun and demand resignation and you (aggressors) will not be prosecuted under const. law. The overall theme mike is trying to point out is that the whole rhetoric is getting out of control and it is not good that our elected leaders have to hide behind walls or glass to be able to be an elected official.

Previously I used the pic off of Palins Facebook with the gun sights, the segment i am listing to (which i assume you are) show that the "lock and load" rhetoric contributed to this wacko's aggression. Not that it was his main influence but could be part of it. The fact that Palin's advisor said that they didn't know that those were gun sights instead they thought they were survey marks show that they realized what they were trying to portray is not politically correct. We see this everyday now where it is socially acceptable to win arguments through threats of violence (even this forum). Even Beck said he is "planning to kill Mike Moore and he is trying to figure out how to do it"

I like the quote that says "the one screaming fire in the theater is responsible for the stampede" It is happening everywhere every channel and one speaker pointed out that if the personalities both TV and radio calm their rhetoric they will just be replaced because this type of speech make rating and $$$$.
"Language Matters" and "We need to Sober Up"

BTW the Bush pins with the death threats really bother me also. He was our pres and I really dont like him but I personally dont think pins should go past the "impeach" stage.
 
So... sounds like you don't understand that nearly every word used to describe political campaigns (including the word CAMPAIGN itself) had military origins, huh?

Hyperlite said:
the segment i am listing to (which i assume you are) show that the "lock and load" rhetoric contributed to this wacko's aggression. Not that it was his main influence but could be part of it.
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In other words, you don't really know, but you like the sound of it, and it supports your preconceived notions, so it must be the case.

Bottom line, every indication is that this guy was mentally unstable, likely schizophrenic, had made numerous death threats against individuals of all shapes and sizes previous to this incident, but those pesky little facts don't stop you from using this event to score cheap political points.

Fucking classy.
 
saf-t scissors said:
In other words, you don't really know, but you like the sound of it, and it supports your preconceived notions, so it must be the case.

Bottom line, every indication is that this guy was mentally unstable, likely schizophrenic, had made numerous death threats against individuals of all shapes and sizes previous to this incident, but those pesky little facts don't stop you from using this event to score cheap political points.

Fucking classy.
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You cuss a lot as the NC4x4 admin. you must be an angry person.

BTW I didn’t know I was running for a political position

Dude think about it.... he targeted a congresswoman not his college mates, or police or what have you.....People are influenced by things that go on in their world do you not think so? His dumbass might have been the one who vandalized Gifford’s office in the first place. His books and videos show he is political motivated. Research where the gold and silver idea comes from not to mention he has met her before. All we hear about is accusations and threats in our media on all sides (right center and left) It is only natural that anyone with a TV could br "triggered" by the crap in the media. The point is that the current language we use when communicating is not nice. (note your last sentence as an example)

I’m sure that you think Kennedy and Lincoln were not killed over politics.

I think you are a little too protective of Ms. Palin. Geez chill out campaign manager....
 
Hyperlite said:
Geez chill out campaign manager.... [/FONT]
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Off Subject,but if Geeze is rooted in the word Jesus,which I imagine it is,Like short for going Jeeeeeeeeesus.Wouldn't it be spelled Jeeze?IDK,I know it looks right with the G in front,but I am always Curious,it's kind of like people who say"I could care less"(should it be I COULDN'T care less?) and the word kinda(should be Kind of,right?).Nit Picky I know,but I am already bored with these poor victims being drug into the political arena and keeping them in my prayers is something I am doing quietly.
 
retroedaddy said:
Off Subject,but if Geeze is rooted in the word Jesus,which I imagine it is,Like short for going Jeeeeeeeeesus.Wouldn't it be spelled Jeeze?IDK,I know it looks right with the G in front,but I am always Curious,it's kind of like people who say"I could care less"(should it be I COULDN'T care less?) and the word kinda(should be Kind of,right?).Nit Picky I know,but I am already bored with these poor victims being drug into the political arena and keeping them in my prayers is something I am doing quietly.
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actually its a contraction of "Gee Wiz".
 
Hyperlite said:
Dude think about it.... he targeted a congresswoman not his college mates, or police or what have you
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You're talking out of your ass again.

Jared Loughner said:
"I don't feel good: I'm ready to kill a police officer! I can say it."
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College Classmate said:
"We have a mentally unstable person in the class that scares the living crap out of me. He is one of those whose picture you see on the news, after he has come into class with an automatic weapon. Everyone interviewed would say, Yeah, he was in my math class and he was really weird. I sit by the door with my purse handy. If you see it on the news one night, know that I got out fast..."
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CSM said:
Like the Joker in the Batman franchise, Loughner wanted to create chaos for the sake of chaos, Tierney said. "There's no rhyme or reason, he wanted to watch the world burn."

Last fall, Loughner was forced out of Pima Community College for erratic and threatening behavior during poetry classes. In an interview with Slate, Kent Slinker, an adjunct philosophy professor at Pima Community College who taught Loughner, described Loughner as "someone whose brains were scrambled."

"His thoughts were unrelated to anything in our world," said Mr. Slinker.
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link
Mother Jones said:
In college, Loughner became increasingly intrigued with "lucid dreaming," and he grew convinced that he could control his dreams, according to Tierney. In a series of rambling videos posted to his YouTube page, dreams are a frequent topic. In a video posted on December 15, Loughner writes, "My favorite activity is conscience dreaming: the greatest inspiration for my political business information. Some of you don't dream—sadly." In another video, he writes, "The population of dreamers in the United States of America is less than 5%!" Later in the same video he says, "I'm a sleepwalker—who turns off the alarm clock."

Loughner believed that dreams could be a sort of alternative, Matrix-style reality, and "that when you realize you're dreaming, you can do anything, you can create anything," Tierney says. Loughner started his "dream journal" in an attempt to take more control of his dreams, his friend notes, and he kept this journal for over a year.
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Read the whole thing.

Hyperlite said:
I’m sure that you think Kennedy and Lincoln were not killed over politics.
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You're awfully sure of yourself to be wrong as often as you are. :rolleyes:
 
What we really need is to reverse the deinstitutionalization movement -- make it simpler to commit people against their will until they can be evaluated.

When I was young, random acts of mass murder were shocking. In 1966, Charles Whitman went to the top of a building at the University of Texas and methodically murdered 13 people with a rifle. Such crimes were largely unthinkable until 1984, when James Huberty went into a McDonald’s in San Ysidro, California, and murdered 19 people with a shotgun and an Uzi.

We are not shocked anymore. We are saddened — but the days when gun control advocates could dance in the blood of victims to get another useless gun control law passed are over. Americans are now used to this — and that is the biggest tragedy of all. We just accept this, and don’t ask, “What’s causing this? Can we fix it?”

It is not just Americans who are sitting on the sidelines wondering what happened. In spite of much more restrictive gun control laws in Europe, they have a lot of these mass murders over there also. In Finland. In Germany. In Britain. Of course, since these countries have somewhat restrictive to very restrictive gun control laws, the correct response to laws that did not work is … more of the same.

What changed? Our mental health system is what changed — a movement towards emptying out mental hospitals and making it difficult to commit someone against his will. This is called deinstitutionalization. This is an idea so theoretically elegant that it has been taking place everywhere. In America. In Canada. In Britain. In Finland (which has experienced one of the most rapid movements towards deinstitutionalization in the Western world). And probably in those other European countries as well.
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The guy has a point -- these sorts of tragedies weren't commonplace until we made it difficult to involuntarily commit the mentally ill. Seung Hui Cho, anyone? Link
 
saf-t scissors said:
What we really need is to reverse the deinstitutionalization movement -- make it simpler to commit people against their will until they can be evaluated.



The guy has a point -- these sorts of tragedies weren't commonplace until we made it difficult to involuntarily commit the mentally ill. Seung Hui Cho, anyone? Link
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i dont know man. at first it sounds like a good idea, but is sounds like it has a lot of potential for abuse.
 
Letting paranoid schizophrenics sleep on park benches in the middle of winter has a lot of potential for abuse.
 
saf-t scissors said:
What we really need is to reverse the deinstitutionalization movement -- make it simpler to commit people against their will until they can be evaluated.
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Why that’s just dumb. That is nonsense and just makes our society less free. Ever heard of HIPAA? Who you going to lock up Shawn, schizophrenics, then bipolar then people with PTSD, etc., etc.? Read about John Nash and his ability to be our top scholar in America and was schizophrenic.

"The association between bipolar disorder and creativity first appeared in literature in the 1970s, but the idea of a link between "madness" and "genius" is much older, dating back at least to the time of Aristotle, and reinforced by the views of the Romanticism. It has been proposed that there's a link particularly in the case of bipolar disorder, whereas Major depressive disorder appears to be significantly more common among playwrights, novelists, biographers, and artists"

So you are a doctor who has evaluated the shooter and came up with this diagnosis? IMO you are making an excuse for the shooter. He was never turned into police or any mental institution. I am holding him 100% responsible as it is premeditated murder. You and whoever is blaming mental illness is justifying his actions and giving him an out. (Not guilty because of insanity)

Don't jump to any conclusions about Arizona shooter's mental health, says MN expert

By Susan Perry | Published Tue, Jan 11 2011 9:43 am
I spoke on Monday with Ed Eide, executive director of the Mental Health Association of Minnesota, about last weekend’s tragedy in Tucson, Ariz., and about what messages such incidents convey to the public about people with mental illnesses. Here’s a condensed version of my interview with him.
MinnPost: When the media reports an incident like this, what is your initial thought? Do you immediately wonder if the person involved had a mental illness?
Ed Eide: My first reaction is just the horror of anyone being shot. It’s repulsive. In this case, the person was acting strangely in a classroom setting and was asked to leave [his community college], but there’s no diagnosis of a mental illness or any other kind of illness for this young man. It appears that he was easily influence by something or someone. Maybe that’s a key to his personality. But there’s nothing to indicate that he has a personality disorder or any kind of mental illness at this point in time.
MP: So you think what’s been reported about [Jared L. Loughner's] actions don’t indicate a mental illness?
EE: I’m not saying they do or they don’t. I haven’t seen anything to say he’s been diagnosed with mental illness, so to jump to the conclusion that he has one is, I think, inappropriate. Lots of people who’ve shot people don’t have mental illnesses. Lots of people who’ve acted out against other people don’t have mental illnesses.
MP: If Loughner is diagnosed with a severe mental illness, such as schizophrenia, it will undoubtedly raise the public’s fears about people with such illnesses. Would those fears be justified? Are people with severe mental illnesses more violent than the rest of the population?
EE: No. Absolutely not. In fact, under most circumstances, people with an extremely complicated mental illness are more likely to harm themselves — or others will harm them — then they are to harm others.
MP: Does the public’s misconception about mental illness and violence hinder the cause of getting care for the mentally ill?
EE: I think it does. It paints a false impression that everyone with a mental illness is dangerous. People understand that a mental illness is a biological illness. But even though they understand that, they’re still not understanding of people with mental illness leading a normal life. It’s like they can’t connect that. This just exacerbates that view by general citizens.
MP: If someone has a loved one they think is showing signs of mental illness, what should they do?
EE: Have a conversation with the person. Otherwise, they’ll have a tendency to isolate, and they won’t get the help that they need. You know, we all put off having that mole checked, and then all of sudden it becomes cancerous. Getting an early diagnosis of a mental illness is no different than getting an early diagnosis of a cancerous mole on your arm. It’s the same kind of thing. Whatever we can do to prevent the exacerbation of the condition, we should be doing. Too often, we don’t [take that early action] — for physical illness or for mental illness.
 
Hyperlite said:
Why that’s just dumb. That is nonsense and just makes our society less free. Ever heard of HIPAA? Who you going to lock up Shawn, schizophrenics, then bipolar then people with PTSD, etc., etc.? Read about John Nash and his ability to be our top scholar in America and was schizophrenic.
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If you love straw men so much, why don't you marry one?
 
How many of you actually understand mental illnesses? Have any of you done any REAL research on schizophrenia other than what the media and pop culture tell you?

In the interview hyperlite posted the interviewee is correct. 'Most' schizophrenics are NOT a risk to others but that does not say that, that it cannot quickly change based off (insert outside influence here). Also on another note about that interview, the interviewee is not passing judgment on the shooter involved due to not being familiar with him what so ever. Therefore, IMHO it is a mute point to bring to the discussion.

On to deinstitutionalization (DIS). This is actually a forward movement in the care for the mentally ill. DIS movement is actually been put in place to provide accessibility to mental health care. The down fall to a true and complete DIS movement is it would put the dangerous mental health patients on the streets. That is why we have moved for a semi-deinstitutionalization system. And this, at least in wake county has been a great thing. This free hospital ER's in a great way by not clogging ER's with people who do not need to be there. I can't remember the name of the organization but there is one in Raleigh that helps the people who need urgent mental health (and ongoing) evaluation, without needing to be committed. This does not say that the people who are a danger to themselves or others are just let out on the streets. Since everyone wants to be held of on schizophrenia we will use that as the case in point for this discussion. Schizophrenia is caused by and excess of dopamine in the brain and an easy thing to fix by blocking the receptors, causing reuptake to be preformed faster, and/or limiting the release of the dopamine. Now does that make every schizophrenic require drugs, require constant treatment? No, like with everything else in medician there are varying levels of everything, schizophrenia. So person a requires x amount of drug while person b requires x100 of the drug (exaggeration). On top of this it needs to be understood that the drug effects everyone diffrently. I could go on and on but its 4:30 in the AM
 
Futbalfantic said:
On to deinstitutionalization (DIS). This is actually a forward movement in the care for the mentally ill. DIS movement is actually been put in place to provide accessibility to mental health care. The down fall to a true and complete DIS movement is it would put the dangerous mental health patients on the streets.
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Right, and what the link I posted argues is that we're already there. There are countless examples of mass-casualty shooters who were suspected of violent, irrational behavior long before they actually went on a shooting spree. Family members that tried in vain to get them help, friends and neighbors who were frightened or threatened by their behavior. But in every instance, they weren't actually able to do anything because the killer hadn't *yet* injured anyone.

I agree that Hyperlite's post is irrelevant. The interviewee is simply doing what any responsible medical professional should do -- reserving diagnosis until it's appropriate. But his argument that you shouldn't worry about the mentally ill or schizophrenics in particular, because they're really only a threat to themselves, is disgusting for a variety of reasons.
 
saf unfortunately there has to be a "pattern of proven behavior" and it is actually pretty easy to prove if you know the system.
 
When we were in college, my wife and I helped asomebody get her roomate commited, the police literally came and dragged her out of the appartment. 3 day mandatory eval.
It was surprisingly easy.
Ah, those were fun times.

Futbalfantic said:
How many of you actually understand mental illnesses? Have any of you done any REAL research on schizophrenia other than what the media and pop culture tell you?
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I have 2 degrees in Psych, and lets just say I've lived around enough of it, and I'll be the first to tell you while I think I know about mental illness, I think very few people actually understand it.
 
Yeah thats why it took me a while to write my post I knew someone on here had a degree in it and didnt want foot in mouth
 
It seems like suicide victims that speak out about it want help. The silent depressed victims are the ones that actually do it? Am I correct?

I have a few friends that their children killed themselves and either parents had no idea!
 
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