What happened to Male/Female?

Ron said:
I am open to a discussion on societal norms and oppression.
That real.

Born with a cooter and want to play football and rub titties. Cool I love you the way you are.

Born with a Willie and want to play with dolls and lock penises. I'm cool with that as well.

Born with a Willie and think you are a girl...you are wrong. We need to fix your mindset
Click to expand...


THIS RIGHT HERE!!!!! If you are a guy and you like guys, thats your business. Doesnt involve me and mine, I dont really care. But to say that you are a girl and you were just "born wrong", and I need to call you by something youre not? Nope, aint gonna happen. There are a very very few people who are truly born not really male, not really female. They can pick whichever they feel better with. But all this nonsense is getting out of hand. Call me ol fashioned, a Bible thumper, a bigot, I dont really care. I just go with what the facts and logic say.
 
Ron said:
Born with a Willie and think you are a girl...you are wrong. We need to fix your mindset
Click to expand...

I used to think this same way. I figured transgender people were screwed up individuals that needed lots of counseling. After much research, I no longer feel that way.
 
drkelly said:
I used to think this same way. I figured transgender people were screwed up individuals that needed lots of counseling. After much research, I no longer feel that way.
Click to expand...
Have you told Mr Kelly how you feel?:flipoff2:
 
drkelly said:
I used to think this same way. I figured transgender people were screwed up individuals that needed lots of counseling. After much research, I no longer feel that way.
Click to expand...


That post last night was a bit light hearted and joking, but had a ringing of truth to my core beliefs on the subject.
To better state my position in a more sober frame of mind here is how I think/feel/believe.

#1 I am excluding true both sex organ birthed people. They are a different special case and comprise less than one half of one percent of gender change surgeries. Much less the population as a whole.

That said, I think "sex" is a characteristic no different than hair color, eye color height etc. If I told you I have green eyes but think I am really a blue eyed person...that makes no sense, right? I mean I am free to wear blue contacts to present as a blue eyed person but I still have green eyes. In the same vein if you are a mature adult and want to pay your own money to cosmetically change your body parts...I think that is an should be within your legal rights. However I do not extend that same opinion onto kids. There are middle school kids being fed huge dosages of hormones to help them "transition"...never thinking what that is doing to their long term health. (Here is a hint - look to the bodybuilding community and see what massive levels of HGH and testosterone do long term)

In my opinion, I think the entire issue is really one of perception and societal norms. Boys should be rugged and tough and never cry. Girls should be dainty and sweet and not like to sweat or smell. (I am over simplifying that to illustrate my point without 10,000 nuances)

If a girl finds herself attracted to other girls, or finds she likes "manly" things or would rather play football than dolls or ...whatever. I think it imperative that we support those choices. That girl is perfectly "normal" and lost of girls like boy things. There is no need to change her sex organs and build her a phallus to make her behavior ok. She is perfectly ok and normal how she is.

That in my opinion is what we need to correct.

A girl who says she has felt like she should have been a boy her whole life..what does that mean? What does being a boy feel like? Just like being a girl only he has a few external sex organs hanging out.
If a boy wants to wear a dress to school and grow his hair and paint his nails and shave his legs...I think he should be allowed to do that. I dont think he should go chop his penis off to allow himself to do that.

That's my opinion. That's my position.

My son has a close friend who is a female transitioning to a male. She is 16. She has been doing this for 2 years now.
Even an amateur psychologist can take a step back and see something here
She had a traumatic life experience as a child. It was perpetrated by females. From that point on she withdrew. She started taking martial arts lessons to be able to defend herself. She befriended my son because he was the biggest kid in the school. She never acknowledged this but it was a defense or coping mechanism. She wanted him to protect her. And he would fight a lion for her. He sees her as his little sister. She first came out as a lesbian, then decided she was supposed to be a boy. Ive watched them pump her full of hormones, she has a pronounced adam's apple. Has started growing facial hair. etc etc etc. Her traumatic experience was never fully dealt with, imho.

I've used this analogy here before and it is the only thing I can use to visualize my feelings.
I had a good friend growing up who was anorexic. She killed herself by not eating. She thought she was fat a 60lbs. She genuinely looked in the mirror and saw a fat person. She was traumatized by her fatness. We recognize eating disorders. No one suggested giving her lipo to suck out the fat that she perceived.

Even with a gender change operation you still aren't what you were born then. There is still a lot of mental baggage that needs to be sorted.

Maybe I am just too stupid to get it, but I honestly cant get it.
I really really wish I was born to be a 6'3" dude. My life would have been very different if I was. But I wasnt. At some point around 20 or 21 I had to accept that fact. It hurt. It crushed my lifelong dreams to that point. But I lived through it grew and moved on. I didnt go pay to have my legs broken and rods inserted into them to make me 6'3"...
 
drkelly said:
I used to think this same way. I figured transgender people were screwed up individuals that needed lots of counseling. After much research, I no longer feel that way.
Click to expand...
Care to elaborate? You called me out in another thread without any explanation. All of the science says its a mental disorder, as does logic and common sense.
 
Ron said:
That post last night was a bit light hearted and joking, but had a ringing of truth to my core beliefs on the subject.
To better state my position in a more sober frame of mind here is how I think/feel/believe.

#1 I am excluding true both sex organ birthed people. They are a different special case and comprise less than one half of one percent of gender change surgeries. Much less the population as a whole.

That said, I think "sex" is a characteristic no different than hair color, eye color height etc. If I told you I have green eyes but think I am really a blue eyed person...that makes no sense, right? I mean I am free to wear blue contacts to present as a blue eyed person but I still have green eyes. In the same vein if you are a mature adult and want to pay your own money to cosmetically change your body parts...I think that is an should be within your legal rights. However I do not extend that same opinion onto kids. There are middle school kids being fed huge dosages of hormones to help them "transition"...never thinking what that is doing to their long term health. (Here is a hint - look to the bodybuilding community and see what massive levels of HGH and testosterone do long term)

In my opinion, I think the entire issue is really one of perception and societal norms. Boys should be rugged and tough and never cry. Girls should be dainty and sweet and not like to sweat or smell. (I am over simplifying that to illustrate my point without 10,000 nuances)

If a girl finds herself attracted to other girls, or finds she likes "manly" things or would rather play football than dolls or ...whatever. I think it imperative that we support those choices. That girl is perfectly "normal" and lost of girls like boy things. There is no need to change her sex organs and build her a phallus to make her behavior ok. She is perfectly ok and normal how she is.

That in my opinion is what we need to correct.

A girl who says she has felt like she should have been a boy her whole life..what does that mean? What does being a boy feel like? Just like being a girl only he has a few external sex organs hanging out.
If a boy wants to wear a dress to school and grow his hair and paint his nails and shave his legs...I think he should be allowed to do that. I dont think he should go chop his penis off to allow himself to do that.

That's my opinion. That's my position.

My son has a close friend who is a female transitioning to a male. She is 16. She has been doing this for 2 years now.
Even an amateur psychologist can take a step back and see something here
She had a traumatic life experience as a child. It was perpetrated by females. From that point on she withdrew. She started taking martial arts lessons to be able to defend herself. She befriended my son because he was the biggest kid in the school. She never acknowledged this but it was a defense or coping mechanism. She wanted him to protect her. And he would fight a lion for her. He sees her as his little sister. She first came out as a lesbian, then decided she was supposed to be a boy. Ive watched them pump her full of hormones, she has a pronounced adam's apple. Has started growing facial hair. etc etc etc. Her traumatic experience was never fully dealt with, imho.

I've used this analogy here before and it is the only thing I can use to visualize my feelings.
I had a good friend growing up who was anorexic. She killed herself by not eating. She thought she was fat a 60lbs. She genuinely looked in the mirror and saw a fat person. She was traumatized by her fatness. We recognize eating disorders. No one suggested giving her lipo to suck out the fat that she perceived.

Even with a gender change operation you still aren't what you were born then. There is still a lot of mental baggage that needs to be sorted.

Maybe I am just too stupid to get it, but I honestly cant get it.
I really really wish I was born to be a 6'3" dude. My life would have been very different if I was. But I wasnt. At some point around 20 or 21 I had to accept that fact. It hurt. It crushed my lifelong dreams to that point. But I lived through it grew and moved on. I didnt go pay to have my legs broken and rods inserted into them to make me 6'3"...
Click to expand...


You really put things nicely. I agree with almost all of what you said here.
 
Ron said:
I really really wish I was born to be a 6'3" dude. My life would have been very different if I was. But I wasnt. At some point around 20 or 21 I had to accept that fact. It hurt. It crushed my lifelong dreams to that point. But I lived through it grew and moved on. I didnt go pay to have my legs broken and rods inserted into them to make me 6'3"...
Click to expand...
I feel your pain. I wish I would have been a big boobed hot chick with a nice ass and no friends so that I just had to play with myself all the time.
 
Question:
Could the biological makeup of a human that is responsible for gender be somehow reversed either chemically or by something as simple as sound waves?
@RatLabGuy
 
XJsavage said:
Question:
Could the biological makeup of a human that is responsible for gender be somehow reversed either chemically or by something as simple as sound waves?
@RatLabGuy
Click to expand...
If we're talking about gender expression, absolutely. At least regarding "chemicals". That's what hormone therapy is. Hormones are just specific chemicals which affects the way which cells behave, and as new cells are created (because your body is always making new cells) they affect what kind of cells the yare and what they do. People who have had a sex change or are preparing for one undergo hormone therapy to essentially make themselves more male or more female.
Similarly, it's done even for babies who are born androgynous or with some kind of abnormality that makes it phenotypically unclear whether they are male or female, to essentially "push" the body one way or the other. Literally thousands of kids born a years that have it done.
The ideal form is genetic therapy - where you directly change the genes themselves, so that everything from the cell creation forward is a "normal" cycle not requiring any additional exogenous intervention. But right now genetic therapies are still kind of dodgy and not fully well proven or certainly accepted as the societal level... people get twitchy when talking about changing genes... lots of evidence in animals models but once you get the ethicists involved all rational discussion goes out the window.

Now can you do anything with sound waves? No. Sound is just a mechanical compression wave, just like slapping your hand on water or when you press in a brake pedal to push hydraulic fluid through a tube. You can stimulate, heat, or otherwise excite tissue that way but no way to really change things at a biochemical level.
 
Excellent. Thank you. I knew you were the right person to ask and is why I did.
 
XJsavage said:
Question:
Could the biological makeup of a human that is responsible for gender be somehow reversed either chemically or by something as simple as sound waves?
@RatLabGuy
Click to expand...
I'm sorry, I just realized you may have ben asking a different question from what I answered.
Did you mean like, can the actual sex organs and internal physiology of a male/female be changed using mechistry to become that of the other?
If so the answer is -well sort of. It largely depends on when it is began in development. Can an adult man grow a uterus? No. Never. Too late. But can an embryo be changed so that it will change direction and switch from developing into a male, into a female, and get that uterus? Very much so, if done early enough.
The challenge is (1) knowing the right chemical treatment to make it happen - science isn't quite there yet but it's theoretically possible for sure - and (2) doing it before things are already "set" and unable to change. Some parts of the body are more able to change later in life than others. Mostly due to similarities. Like, guys can certainly grow boobs. Because those are just big fatty pects. But it's way too much work to carve out a cavity inside of an abdomen and create extra tubing and such.
 
Ron said:
That post last night was a bit light hearted and joking, but had a ringing of truth to my core beliefs on the subject.
To better state my position in a more sober frame of mind here is how I think/feel/believe.

#1 I am excluding true both sex organ birthed people. They are a different special case and comprise less than one half of one percent of gender change surgeries. Much less the population as a whole.

That said, I think "sex" is a characteristic no different than hair color, eye color height etc. If I told you I have green eyes but think I am really a blue eyed person...that makes no sense, right? I mean I am free to wear blue contacts to present as a blue eyed person but I still have green eyes. In the same vein if you are a mature adult and want to pay your own money to cosmetically change your body parts...I think that is an should be within your legal rights. However I do not extend that same opinion onto kids. There are middle school kids being fed huge dosages of hormones to help them "transition"...never thinking what that is doing to their long term health. (Here is a hint - look to the bodybuilding community and see what massive levels of HGH and testosterone do long term)

In my opinion, I think the entire issue is really one of perception and societal norms. Boys should be rugged and tough and never cry. Girls should be dainty and sweet and not like to sweat or smell. (I am over simplifying that to illustrate my point without 10,000 nuances)

If a girl finds herself attracted to other girls, or finds she likes "manly" things or would rather play football than dolls or ...whatever. I think it imperative that we support those choices. That girl is perfectly "normal" and lost of girls like boy things. There is no need to change her sex organs and build her a phallus to make her behavior ok. She is perfectly ok and normal how she is.

That in my opinion is what we need to correct.

A girl who says she has felt like she should have been a boy her whole life..what does that mean? What does being a boy feel like? Just like being a girl only he has a few external sex organs hanging out.
If a boy wants to wear a dress to school and grow his hair and paint his nails and shave his legs...I think he should be allowed to do that. I dont think he should go chop his penis off to allow himself to do that.

That's my opinion. That's my position.

My son has a close friend who is a female transitioning to a male. She is 16. She has been doing this for 2 years now.
Even an amateur psychologist can take a step back and see something here
She had a traumatic life experience as a child. It was perpetrated by females. From that point on she withdrew. She started taking martial arts lessons to be able to defend herself. She befriended my son because he was the biggest kid in the school. She never acknowledged this but it was a defense or coping mechanism. She wanted him to protect her. And he would fight a lion for her. He sees her as his little sister. She first came out as a lesbian, then decided she was supposed to be a boy. Ive watched them pump her full of hormones, she has a pronounced adam's apple. Has started growing facial hair. etc etc etc. Her traumatic experience was never fully dealt with, imho.

I've used this analogy here before and it is the only thing I can use to visualize my feelings.
I had a good friend growing up who was anorexic. She killed herself by not eating. She thought she was fat a 60lbs. She genuinely looked in the mirror and saw a fat person. She was traumatized by her fatness. We recognize eating disorders. No one suggested giving her lipo to suck out the fat that she perceived.

Even with a gender change operation you still aren't what you were born then. There is still a lot of mental baggage that needs to be sorted.

Maybe I am just too stupid to get it, but I honestly cant get it.
I really really wish I was born to be a 6'3" dude. My life would have been very different if I was. But I wasnt. At some point around 20 or 21 I had to accept that fact. It hurt. It crushed my lifelong dreams to that point. But I lived through it grew and moved on. I didnt go pay to have my legs broken and rods inserted into them to make me 6'3"...
Click to expand...

I've read enough of your posts on this website to know that you are a smart person. I think you probably have not read or seen enough videos on the subject yet. I've watched numerous youtube videos about the kids and parents from seemingly healthy and happy families talk about how the person just knew their whole life, from as early as they can remember, that they felt like they were in the wrong body. Little boys playing with dolls and wanting to wear dresses from age 2, not just a phase they went through for a short while. Some of them are confused at first and think they are gay, then later realize they are transgender. I was very ignorant on the subject when the bathroom bill came about a year or so ago. For some reason I decided to learn about transgender people.

Your son's friend sounds like a special case where her horrible past may be influencing her present decisions poorly.

Regarding the comment about the drugs and bodybuilders, my understanding is that it is not much different than TRT for an older man or possibly whatever women do for menopause. Body builders take superphysiological doses of Test cyp and other drugs. They raise their testosterone levels to 3-5 times or more than that of an average man, which brings elevated hematocrit levels. Their blood gets too thick which can cause strokes and heart attacks. A woman transitioning to a man would be given/take a more normal amount of Test cyp injections.
 
JSJJ388 said:
Care to elaborate? You called me out in another thread without any explanation. All of the science says its a mental disorder, as does logic and common sense.
Click to expand...

Spend an hour or two with an open mind watching youtube videos about transgender kids.
 
drkelly said:
Spend an hour or two with an open mind watching youtube videos about transgender kids.
Click to expand...


I have spent many hours watching not only videos of "transgender" kids, but also hours of reading research and scientific articles. The science backs up that in almost all cases it is a mental disorder, one that needs to be addressed and cared for. I cant imagine the suffering and confusion one must go through to think that they are the opposite gender. I genuinely want to see these people helped. But flaunting their disease and making it trendy does nothing to help their problems. Have you looked at the suicide rates for "transgender" teenagers and young adults? Its devastating to me. They need help and instead people try to make it a publicity stunt.

You still have given no explanation. If you are going to call someone out, you best have a case to back it up.
 
JSJJ388 said:
I have spent many hours watching not only videos of "transgender" kids, but also hours of reading research and scientific articles. The science backs up that in almost all cases it is a mental disorder, one that needs to be addressed and cared for. I cant imagine the suffering and confusion one must go through to think that they are the opposite gender. I genuinely want to see these people helped. But flaunting their disease and making it trendy does nothing to help their problems. Have you looked at the suicide rates for "transgender" teenagers and young adults? Its devastating to me. They need help and instead people try to make it a publicity stunt.

You still have given no explanation. If you are going to call someone out, you best have a case to back it up.
Click to expand...

The suicide rate for transgender people is tragic.

If you have watched many hours of transgender kids videos on youtube and think they just need to see a mental health doctor and possibly be given medicine, then I will never be able to convince you otherwise.
 
drkelly said:
I've read enough of your posts on this website to know that you are a smart person.
Click to expand...

Appreciate the sentiment, and reciprocate it.
This is an area where I want to have good sound discussion as I want to learn. I am very interested in hearing all your thoughts and opions, not to win an argument but to learn and grow.

drkelly said:
I think you probably have not read or seen enough videos on the subject yet. I've watched numerous youtube videos about the kids and parents from seemingly healthy and happy families talk about how the person just knew their whole life, from as early as they can remember, that they felt like they were in the wrong body. Little boys playing with dolls and wanting to wear dresses from age 2, not just a phase they went through for a short while. Some of them are confused at first and think they are gay, then later realize they are transgender. I was very ignorant on the subject when the bathroom bill came about a year or so ago. For some reason I decided to learn about transgender people.
Click to expand...

Lets take labels out of this for a moment.
What about the act of playing with a doll or wearing a dress requires a vagina or makes it impossible if equipped with a penis? (lets leave phallus and dress length jokes out...too easy)
That is my point. Why does the little boy feel bad for playing with a baby doll? That is my problem. Encourage that little boy to play with that baby doll. He is your son, right? Love him as he is. He shouldn't feel the need to change into an acceptable form. I think it should be perfectly ok to have a penis and a baby doll. I think we owe it to ourselves to allow and promote that.
 
drkelly said:
The suicide rate for transgender people is tragic.

If you have watched many hours of transgender kids videos on youtube and think they just need to see a mental health doctor and possibly be given medicine, then I will never be able to convince you otherwise.
Click to expand...


Its not the videos, its the science and the facts that say its a mental disorder. You have yet to present any facts, or even hint at any facts, to support your standpoint. It would seem as though you dont have any facts to back up your claim, or your calling me out.

The suicide rate is tragic, because they need help. Not necisarilly just meds, they need someone to sit down and talk to them and help them. In most cases, there is a traumatic event somewhere in the patient history that you can trace everything back to. If you have facts and data to the contrary please, lets see them. I am always learning and trying to better my understanding of things.
 
drkelly said:
I
Your son's friend sounds like a special case where her horrible past may be influencing her present decisions poorly.
.
Click to expand...

How many others have horrible pasts they aren't disclosing.
I've seen speculation that as many as half teen transgender are sexual molestation victims
 
I agree with the boy playing with a doll thing....how terrible it must be that someone's son wants to play with a doll and then grows up to be a wonderful and caring father because he had strong nurturing tendencies :rolleyes: That doesn't mean he needs to turn his outie in to an innie though.

The thing that trips me up is a man getting implants, wearing a dress, and then still having his appendage and making love to women. That just sounds like a man in a dress...but what do I know?
 
Ron said:
Lets take labels out of this for a moment.
What about the act of playing with a doll or wearing a dress requires a vagina or makes it impossible if equipped with a penis? (lets leave phallus and dress length jokes out...too easy)
That is my point. Why does the little boy feel bad for playing with a baby doll? That is my problem. Encourage that little boy to play with that baby doll. He is your son, right? Love him as he is. He shouldn't feel the need to change into an acceptable form. I think it should be perfectly ok to have a penis and a baby doll. I think we owe it to ourselves to allow and promote that.
Click to expand...
My thoughts exactly, except I would change "encourage" to "Its perfectly fine for".
 
JSJJ388 said:
The science backs up that in almost all cases it is a mental disorder, one that needs to be addressed and cared for. ... But flaunting their disease and making it trendy does nothing to help their problems.
Click to expand...

With those two snippets, my question becomes, are all sex changes considered to be done by people afflicted with a mental disorder...or have we hit a point now where a feminine man or butch woman are sympathizers, and it's truly become 'acceptable' and trendy for some. Is there even a way to quantify that??? I think I'm of relative sound mind, but if I had a spare $100k and decided I wanted to make my outie an innie tomorrow, because I'm really liberal and want to show support. That would be more making some kind 'statement' than necessarily qualify as mental disorder, right? I get that's over simplifying and not the typical track, so maybe if I were to follow through, there would be something wrong by default. Or is it all transgenders that get a sex change have a mental disorder, but not all sex changes are transgendered afflicted mentally?
 
Last edited:
When I was younger I was told I was bipolar. I had problems in school and at home. I was expelled from Forsyth county schools several times and ended up in juvenile detention a few times for assault charges.

I was a sweet well mannered kid 90% of the time. I did great in school and actually took advanced classes in several subjects. I worked part time at my dad's business. But I would flip out over nothing and cause chaos every now and then.

I was sent to psychiatrist, psychologists, and therapist. They told me I was bipolar. For years I took many medications and lived with the thought that I was born this way and it wasn't my fault. Since I was born this way I didn't work towards fixing it, because I couldn't.

Well when my parents divorced I was 15 and something just snapped one day. I realized there wasn't anything wrong with me. I stopped taking my mediction and started focusing on the real problem. I had a bad temper and I could control it. Took me a while to get my anger under control but I did it. I see people I went to school with years ago and they can't believe I'm not in prison or dead. They are shocked at how successful I have been.

I tell this story because while I know there are bipolar people and people with mental illnesses out there, I was wrongly diagnosed and led to believe I had a problem that was out of my control.

I do believe that a small percentage of people are born trapped in the opposite sex body. But if we start telling every young kid that is a little confused that they are really a transgender than I fear we will just be causing huge problems for them when it is just a bit of insecurity at a young age.

I have no problem with what another human being does as long as it doesn't directly affect me. I live by this rule "your rights end where my begin". I just hope we aren't pushing young confused kids into more chaos by making them believe they are something they are not.
 
YotaOnRocks said:
When I was younger I was told I was bipolar. I live by this rule "your rights end where my begin". I
Click to expand...

Me and you both brother.
I'm way more open minded than most people will ever know.
;)
 
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