Will You Help Try To Rescue Tellico Again?

[McCracken]

My understanding is that it's back open again. Maybe not the whole thing but it is open.

One issue is that "they" have multiple anglers in a given area. I can only name a handful of riders around me. Our strength is spread wide and that's why it's important to band together. We can try and save our own backyards but sooner or later you're going to need help. Forming large groups of dedicated individuals is what this sport/hobby needs.

 

[Yay!Gurrr]

Uhhhhhh,isn't Paragon closed now?????

yes and do you not think a better stronger contract (aka more $) or an outright purchase of the land would have prevented all that BS?

 

[1-tonmudder]

yes and do you not think a better stronger contract (aka more $) or an outright purchase of the land would have prevented all that BS?

I didn't know why it closed just that it did.

 

[Ron]

My take, for what its worth.

The stubborn head strong side of me wants to fight until they are physically removing us from the land.

Having said that...

Like it or not we are fighting an indirect opponent that is a government entity that has the legal right to change the stated use purpose definition of a given tract with nothing more than a recommendation and a vote (internal vote no public input required) and a direct opponent with exponentially more resources both financial and bodies (along with all the myriad expertise and networking contacts that that entails) than we have to fight.

From a strategic military position we are in a valley, surrounded by enemy, with the ability to lob fire down into the valley without ever approaching the crest for us to shoot back.

The one thing we have in our arsenal right now is a fund of some amount, that was raised for this battle. We can choose to drain that fund dry on the 1% hope that we win, and geet an injunction to re open. Which will immediately be followed up by a temporary stay of injunction and more proceedings. WE (UFWDA, SFWDA, and all of us) will go broke long before TU, and if they call in back ups they will have strange bed fellows of The Sierra Club, Green Peace, et. al. ready to drop unds down to fight.

I think we would be better suited by taking the money we currently have raised for this effort and trying to acquire a new piece of property or improve an existing alternate location. I can even imagine a scenario where we offer this as an alternate to a continued fight to TU and maybe even collect some joint funding from them in lieu of a continued legal battle to establish a more environmentally friendly locale.

In short, I think discretion is the better part of valor here, history talks fondly of valiant losers....but it is mere talk.

All that aid, I do agree with Chip's unstated sentiment that we may have all witneessed a half assed effort from the get go.

 

[Leslie]

found it. This is from the temp closure. Does this apply to permanent closure?
http://www.cs.unca.edu/nfsnc/nepa/tusquitee/tellico/tellico_decision_memo.pdf

bottom of page 4.

From the link:



"Additionally, approximately 700 form letters were received by email from those people who supported any and all closures of the trail system. And approximately 400 form letters were received from people who favored trail repairs and reroutes, but not trail closures."



Only 400 letters from folks who favored trail repairs? I don't think that number is correct.

 

[Leslie]

found it. This is from the temp closure. Does this apply to permanent closure?
http://www.cs.unca.edu/nfsnc/nepa/tusquitee/tellico/tellico_decision_memo.pdf

bottom of page 4.

From the link:



"Additionally, approximately 700 form letters were received by email from those people who supported any and all closures of the trail system. And approximately 400 form letters were received from people who favored trail repairs and reroutes, but not trail closures."



Only 400 letters from folks who favored trail repairs? I don't think that number is correct.

 

[Yay!Gurrr]

Yup, I'd believe it... Collectively, we're a bunch of lazy SOBs. We will spend $100 on parts and/or beer but won't put our money where there mouths are.

 

[J.C.]

Only 400 letters from folks who favored trail repairs? I don't think that number is correct.

A small number granted but.....this was back in the beginning, before anyone actually know what was happening. This was in response to the original scoping letter that was put out by the FS and very people were even aware of it!

 

[amcjeepman]

Yup, I'd believe it... Collectively, we're a bunch of lazy SOBs. We will spend $100 on parts and/or beer but won't put our money where there mouths are.

Thats been my experience as well. Many will whine & complain, call for action, talk about how nobody is doing anything and at the same time not take 10-20 minutes to write a letter , donate any $$, or call a state or national representitive. Perhaps we should all sell our 4x4's, buy a big screen and some beer and watch the bread & circuses.

 

[J.C.]

I say fight, but go in swinging instead of peeping around the corners and chit chatting about what we are gonna do and just do it.

All that aid, I do agree with Chip's unstated sentiment that we may have all witneessed a half assed effort from the get go.

I am open to any and all suggestions or comments about how SFWDA should proceed now and will take them to the SFWDA BOD and the RT committee!

I would also like to have examples of how everyone thinks SFWDA has peeped around corners and been half assed in their dealings so I can present them to the BOD and committee!

Only if your voice is heard can there be change!

 

[upnover]

John as I see it, and no I don't know all. It seems as though from what I have seen we have a good argument on why the trails should stay open. We have spent the money to obtain new technology type ascertain of what is or is not going on with the water quality in the Tellico trail system. We have a plan in hand as to what needs to be done to improve it.
With all of this as far as I know the forest service has not at any time give us reason to believe that they would side with us. So we (southern and BRC ) has talked of bringing suit. We did at one time and then back out of it, again, pending the FC decision. And even then, they never stood by what they have said and always drug the decision out, and not giving the decision when they said they would. IMHO that right there gives us all an idea of how they feel about it.
So thats what I mean, bring the suit, take it to court and be well prepared. Do it, and let it be done once and for all.

 

[rockcity]

bring the suit, take it to court and be well prepared. Do it, and let it be done once and for all.

X2 Thats what I feel should have been done all along. Its like a parent threatening to punish their kid if they do wrong and when they actually do wrong, the parent doing nothing to punish the kid. It reinforces the actions and they know nothing will actually happen.

I think we should have filed suit long ago versus going through the FS's steps. It seems that everyone knew that the FS had an agenda from the beginning so why wait to file suit? Knowing they had an agenda to close the trails, waiting through the "waiting" period and waiting until the place is closed to file suit is crazy if you ask me.

However, I'm not 100% aware of the proper ways about going through this, just what I've read here and on Pirate and the info released by the USFS, etc. There may have been a strategy in place and it may not have worked. But, looking from the outside in, it seems like we sat on our ass too long.

1 thing, we know there were more than 400 letters sent. Where are the other letters? Thats obvious skewing the internal documents to sway their own decision. That should have been dealt with as soon as it was known. Right or not, once Tellico is closed it'll be nearly impossible to get it back open even if our arguments are correct and right.

Once again, my opinion/thoughts may be wrong but its what I've seen from the outside looking in.


Rob

 

[Reid]

i havent subscribed to the 4x4 mags in a while but i do occasionally pick one up at the book store.

I have seen no ads or articles in these places. I dont know what kind of warchest they have to work with, but with the impact tellico has on the whole country, there should of been full page ads asking people to write in and save tellico.

SFWDA has pull with the 4x4 rags...that could of been arranged. Public awareness is important. For decisions to be made based on public comments for BRC and SFWDA to not do all they can to alert the public was lazy and a let down.

My money is tight and i have little to spare. Ive put off joining SFWDA because of this. Knowing how they handled the fight for tellico im a litte more reluctant to send in my money now.

 

[J.C.]

John as I see it, and no I don't know all. It seems as though from what I have seen we have a good argument on why the trails should stay open. We have spent the money to obtain new technology type ascertain of what is or is not going on with the water quality in the Tellico trail system. We have a plan in hand as to what needs to be done to improve it.

Correct!

With all of this as far as I know the forest service has not at any time give us reason to believe that they would side with us.

Correct!

So we (southern and BRC ) has talked of bringing suit. We did at one time and then back out of it, again, pending the FS decision.

We did talk of bringing suit. In fact we followed the federal regulations and legal practice by filing a Notice Of Intent (NOI) to sue the FS. This is a 60 day notice of our intentention to bring legal action. It can also be viewed as a legal ploy, which is how I see our filing. This says in effect, we're serious, you better get moving. However, as there were still several avenues of administrative and procedural steps to follow, a suit at that time would have been thrown out of court due to due process not being followed. So, we dismissed our NOI "with predjudice" meaning in legal terms that we could reinstitute our suit at a later date.

And even then, they (FS) never stood by what they have said and always drug the decision out, and not giving the decision when they said they would. IMHO that right there gives us all an idea of how they feel about it.

Correct. Just big government in action and another FS and TU ploy to divide us, which seems to have worked.

So thats what I mean, bring the suit, take it to court and be well prepared. Do it, and let it be done once and for all.

Again, until all the NEPA, EA process has been followed, no suit can be legally filed. There are many rules and regulations that must be followed and hoops jumped through! Until the entire process comes to an end, including administrative appeals, appeals decisions made and final decision made by the AO (Appeals Officer) nothing can be done. This frustrates all of the 4wd community and works in the FS and TU favor because as the process drags on and on and we appear to be losing, the average 4wd Jane & Joe are moving on with their builds, rides and lives.
I agree with the feeling that this may be a lost cause. It is very possible. However, if you go through all the info I've waded through in the last few weeks, appeals are upheld sometimes. Marisue has been overturned before! It is in the realm of possibility that we can win this thing in the end. But the end is a long way off!
For me personally, the issue isn't Tellico OHV closing. The issue is that the FS has an agency, USDA, mandate to manage the FS for public use. OHV trails are an approved agency use. The NC FS has mismanaged their responsibility to maintain these OHV trails for public use. Now they want to close them as a way of shirking their responsibility! I for one am not going to buy that! Tellico trails or not, I'm tired of the government riding roughshod over the very people they are working for. Therefore, even though the odds are small, I will keep fighting for what I believe is right, and what the FS has done in mismanaging the Tellico OHV area is wrong!

 

[drkelly]

A good point about laying down and not fighting. I guess it will make them think they can take all our wheeling locations.

Skyhik5 makes some good points though.

I feel this situation is a little bit like the people around the GSO airport who fought to keep FedEx from coming here and building another runway. They put up a HUGE fight, but in the end got bulldozed. The enemy was too large, had too much money, and I am sure greased the palms of all the politicians with it.

 

[J.C.]

I think we should have filed suit long ago versus going through the FS's steps. However, I'm not 100% aware of the proper ways about going through this

See my post above. Until the process has run it's course, no suit can be legally filed.

There may have been a strategy in place and it may not have worked. But, looking from the outside in, it seems like we sat on our ass too long.

The NOI was a piece of stategy to let the FS know that the 4wd community was serious about this issue. That we were prepared to fight it even into the court of law. I agree and understand that to those not on the inside it looks differently. That was where I was when I started getting vocal about the issue and was told, put up or shut up

1 thing, we know there were more than 400 letters sent.

Also, see an above post! The 400 comments was from the 1st, original scoping comment period.

Right or not, now that Tellico is closed it'll be nearly impossible to get it back open even if our arguments are correct and right. Rob

Fixed it

Once again, my opinion/thoughts may be wrong but its what I've seen from the outside looking in.
Rob

And that is the battle that anyone who would like to continue to work to rectify this wrong faces! Too many people feel like they are on the outside. Heck, too many people are on the outside. That's how I got in this mess, I complained about SFWDA/RT information dissemination and they said, OK, you do it! I'm just like the FS in my role as SFWDA PR Director. I may or may not agree with SFWDA and RT policy, I may or may not agree with Joe & Jane 4wd and I might not agree with USDA/FS/Govt policy but I have a responsibility to do what I am supposed to do and to do what I feel is right. So, I'll continue fight abuse of responsibility in government for my fellow 4wd'ers whether they want me to or whether they want to help or not!

 

[Reid]

http://www.facebook.com/people/Marisue-Hilliard/1507001802

 

[Reid]

MULTIPLE USE SUSTAINED YIELD ACT.

you cannot deny the public use of public land for the purposes of recreating. Especially since its a long established place.

anyway....

marysue looks like she has it out for everyone
http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/fms/sumter/resources/documents/2009.10.19AWFinalPaddlersAppeal.pdf

she tried to kick the kayakers off the river ways in order to preserve the nature of the river?

i hope the SFDWA and lawyers are looking at similar cases against the FS and studying the tactics used there.

 

[J.C.]

I dont know what kind of warchest they have to work with

Ive put off joining SFWDA because of this.

Well, there you go

For decisions to be made based on public comments for BRC and SFWDA to not do all they can to alert the public was lazy and a let down.

Here, let me tell you how to do it! No I can't, won't or haven't helped but I can tell you what you should or should have done!

I've met and wheeled with BigRedB2. He's a knowledgeable and likeable guy. Maybe I'm just in a bad mood today but some of you guys responses I just don't understand!

 

[upnover]

John you have defiantly done your homework on all of this.
And, you are right, it is different from those of us on the outside looking in. You are inside and I am sure that probably makes it even more frustrating.

Seems it is all not so simple as I think it should be. Never is in a legal matter!

Just sucks that they know where we stand, and our intent, but yet they are moving on with a plan to change things up there as it is(paving and so on)

so my answer to the original question is yes, I will help support the SFWDA and BRC in the fight to get Tellico opened back up.

Maybe we can add a couple thousand suits in that we have been mentally damaged without our favorite place to wheel!

 

[J.C.]

i hope the SFDWA and lawyers are looking at similar cases against the FS and studying the tactics used there.

They are! You have a knack for research, it seems. Keep up the good work, I might be able to get you a job

 

[Reid]

. Maybe I'm just in a bad mood today but some of you guys responses I just don't understand!

reasonable reponse. i guess its kinda like someone who didnt vote complaining about who got elected.



as Upnover said, you get to be on the inside. you know whats going on better than i, someone who isnt even a member. maybe, that is the biggest reason i need to pony up and join. You know how hard the fight is being fought. a non member has no idea whats going on. Doesnt know how important his membership could be to the cause. google search of the topic just shows me the failures of the groups fighting for "My" side.

(it also shows that Marisue has a freaking Hippie agenda)

failure to capitalize on this issue as a membership drive is a sign of poor leadership. Public awareness goes beyond membership. take my example, this tellico issue is going the be the reason i end up joining. Luckily i have NC4x4 to keep me updated on the fight. If i did not have access to this site, i wouldnt even know SFWDA was fighting. My urgency to join would not have been heightened.

i know..i know, more advice from someone who hasnt chipped in.

 

[J.C.]

It's not so much "chipped in", the problem is, "How do we get this information out to the masses"?

I have sent the RT press release to many news, TV and radio media alsong with other info but inless we can inform your everyday 4wd user about the issues there is no way we can mobilize support to win this thing.

IMO the only thing that would make a major impact with the FS would be a humongous outpouring of support from the general public and that isn't going to happen

 

[Reid]

http://www.fs.fed.us/eng/road_mgt/03appdx1.pdf

page 105 and page 110 and definatly page 114.

 

[mudonthetires10]

I am a fisherman myself, rarely as it has become, but I do love trout fishing.
How detrimental are any funds that go to Trout Unlimited on this Tellico situation I wonder?

I don't really know enough about the issue to completely determine where I stand, but with only enough OHV parks to count on one hand in NC, I'm not inclined to want to see Tellico gone.

I suppose I am fairly impartial on the issue, because of my interests on opposing forces (not necessarily the particular groups on both sides though), so this is an interesting perspective.