Owner/builder for garage-shop build. Should I be scared?

Mac5005 said:
My guess was to show the difference for the sake of YouTube.

The need for using the liquid flash with the delta peel and stick vs the zip tape used on the right.
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He's sponsored by Zip
 
So a more detailed quote from the awesome builder was more horrifying than I thought (not sure the GC/PM fees were included in the rougher previous quotes). So still way over budget by many tens of thousands, so back to the drawing board.

Very disappointed, because I was hoping I could work something out with them (we're just so far apart for budget) even when doing a comparison based on removing 25% of the square footage. I just can't spend over $100k on a 900sqft garage, or even more for the original 1200sqft. I can't afford their quality of work, or justify the cost, as much as I may want to. I also can't afford $25k-30k for GC/PM fees on top of the already high materials/labor cost (part of the $100k+ cost).
Removing a few things that cost $1k here or $2k there doesn't bridge the huge budget gap, unfortunately.

Time to do some more thinking, and maybe considering being my own GC. Still seems like a stupid idea with a full time job, honestly. Trying to find a trustworthy builder is such a pain in the ass though, especially when trying to reduce cost.

I'm mostly just doing a bunch of frustrated complaining, sorry...... :D
 
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Fabrik8 said:
So a more detailed quote from the awesome builder was more horrifying than I thought (not sure the GC/PM fees were included in the rougher previous quotes). So still way over budget by many tens of thousands, so back to the drawing board.

Very disappointed, because I was hoping I could work something out with them (we're just so far apart for budget) even when doing a comparison based on removing 25% of the square footage. I just can't spend over $100k on a 900sqft garage, or even more for the original 1200sqft. I can't afford their quality of work, or justify the cost, as much as I may want to. I also can't afford $25k-30k for GC/PM fees on top of the already high materials/labor cost (part of the $100k+ cost).
Removing a few things that cost $1k here or $2k there doesn't bridge the huge budget gap, unfortunately.

Time to do some more thinking, and maybe considering being my own GC. Still seems like a stupid idea with a full time job, honestly. Trying to find a trustworthy builder is such a pain in the ass though, especially when trying to reduce cost.

I'm mostly just doing a bunch of frustrated complaining, sorry...... :D
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You may have answered this before....is there plumbing in this garage?
HVAC?
 
Ron said:
You may have answered this before....is there plumbing in this garage?
HVAC?
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Just a mini split ($5500 on the quote I think), and no plumbing other than an exterior hose bib or two ($700). I've already subtracted most of those things out of the quote, to see what it looks like if the drywall/HVAC/insulation/etc was done later instead of at build time. Still crazy expensive, and that also means that the cost is just postponed instead of actually being reduced. I pulled off about $27k of stuff to simplify down to the base building without interior finishing, walkway, connecting deck, HVAC, dumpster rental, etc, and was still at $110k. That gets a big "no".
 
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I’ve been watching these build threads pretty closely. I am planning on building either a 30x60x12 or 40x60x12shop at my house. I’ve price a couple metal building companies (non red iron). The price for the 30x60 with concrete and insulation was 35k and the 40x60 was Round 52k. I would have to do the wiring and other finishing stuff. Still working out the details on the bathroom, the concrete quote includes extra depth for my lifts.

The buildings are certified for wind, snow, etc and includes plans for permits. The basic structure is the 2”x3” square tubing on 4ft centers. I would love a red iron building but a similar one was 35k for just the materials. Add concrete and assembly and I was bumping 80k. As a side note I had a 24x30x9 building put up about 3 years ago for 9k.
 
So after some spreadsheet math, the builder is using a 30% GC/PM fee (appears to be cost-plus-fixed fee, from my limited understanding). He said he was going to add a little extra because he would have to commute from Charlotte every/everyother day (15-16 miles), but 30% for GM/PM seems excessively high.

That's a $31k chunk of the rough quote right there....

Very, very naive question: Is this negotiable at all, or is that completely rude to suggest?
 
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Fabrik8 said:
So after some spreadsheet math, the builder is using a 30% GC/PM fee (appears to be cost-plus-fixed fee, from my limited understanding). He said he was going to add a little extra because he would have to commute from Charlotte every/everyother day (15-16 miles), but 30% for GM/PM seems excessively high.

That's a $31k chunk of the rough quote right there....

Very, very naive question: Is this negotiable at all, or is that completely rude to suggest?
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That is certainly negotiable. 30% is about double what I see. But construction is busy now, so he may be adding in more of a premium because he either is too busy or doesn’t want to do the work and hoping the price is too high for you.
 
rockcity said:
construction is busy now, so he may be adding in more of a premium because he either is too busy or doesn’t want to do the work and hoping the price is too high
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This 99%
But there's also that "owner factor"

It only takes a few minutes to size up potential clients and realize they're going to nitpick everything you do. And while GOOD builders are good for a reason, they can't ALWAYS be on YOUR job. And chances are...someone along the way will cut a corner that you'd never know about unless you were standing over them watching every move. That's worth 25% "asshole fee" here (not saying you're an asshole.....saying that when an owner presents themselves to be a hoverer and or one that questions everything you're labeled an asshole to the builder). Also could be the area. Here, you can sometimes expect another 20% to deal with guilford co inspections dept...so I imagine near Charlotte is worse.

Just in reading this thread alone I can tell you that you're likely going to pay a premium to whomever does your work, based off the TYPE of construction ALONE. That right there narrows your window of qualified contractors. Then you factor in "youtube mechanic" knowledge, and you look less appealing to work for.

Just my $.02
 
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I’ll eco what’s said above. We typically do work for 10-15% depending on what it is, size and our involvement.
We have also done bid jobs that we were way higher than that due to architect and other factors.



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Loganwayne said:
I’ll eco what’s said above. We typically do work for 10-15% depending on what it is, size and our involvement.
We have also done bid jobs that we were way higher than that due to architect and other factors.



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yep 15/10 (profit/overhead) is my standard..Ill go 10/10 if there is good reason.
20/15 and you are getting a christmas present. beyond that I ALMOST feel guilty....then I remember there are 2 extra letters
 
CasterTroy said:
This 99%
But there's also that "owner factor"

It only takes a few minutes to size up potential clients and realize they're going to nitpick everything you do. And while GOOD builders are good for a reason, they can't ALWAYS be on YOUR job. And chances are...someone along the way will cut a corner that you'd never know about unless you were standing over them watching every move. That's worth 25% "asshole fee" here (not saying you're an asshole.....saying that when an owner presents themselves to be a hoverer and or one that questions everything you're labeled an asshole to the builder). Also could be the area. Here, you can sometimes expect another 20% to deal with guilford co inspections dept...so I imagine near Charlotte is worse.

Just in reading this thread alone I can tell you that you're likely going to pay a premium to whomever does your work, based off the TYPE of construction ALONE. That right there narrows your window of qualified contractors. Then you factor in "youtube mechanic" knowledge, and you look less appealing to work for.

Just my $.02
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I haven't met the guy yet, and I've only spoke with him twice and a few emails, so that's probably not what's going on. He does do a lot of high-end though, mostly in Plaza Midwood and surrounding areas of Charlotte. I've seen his work though, which is why I got in touch with him (he's done a lot of projects with my architect). He's probably not looking for work, put it that way.... Also, Charlotte tax. I've sent just the concept package to 2 other builders in that area, and got similar numbers with barely any communication.
 
It’s a garage. If you call high end, top of the line, good GCs that build nice residential homes, you are going to continue to get the numbers you are getting.

IMHO, you don’t need to spend $90-$100/sq ft for a garage that looks nice. You should be able to get an equally functional and looking garage for half that; your just going to have to find a middle of the road GC and let him do his thing and be efficient and write a check and not stop in and hover. If the GC gets that impression, you are going to continue to get those high quotes.
 
Fabrik8 said:
I haven't met the guy yet, and I've only spoke with him twice and a few emails, so that's probably not what's going on.
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No one can be for sure. I'm just sharing what MY experience has been. Keeping in mind, I'm no GC, but I worked my way thru college slinging a hammer and installing 5 piece crown molding for a residential builder, and been a sub for MANY commercial GC's as; HVAC, Plumber, design firm, and now am a part of a design-build for projects just like yours. I've known the GC I work with since I was a kid. We've collaborated on several projects, and I know when he gets that "look" that he's ready to cut bait and toss a STUPID number at someone. But of course, he's the kind of builder Rob is describing above, who just want's to do his thing, and GTFO (while doing a good job) without a lot of red tape and without an owner truly overthinking a relatively easy thing.

Not even having met face to face, I can tell you right now I'd see "That look" from him if we were on a simple initial phone call because of these factors:

rockcity said:
It’s a garage.
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Fabrik8 said:
I hired an architect
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Fabrik8 said:
in the Charlotte area
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Not that hiring an Architect is bad....but that right there already tells a builder the level you're at with a "garage"

Again....I'm not at all saying the route you've chose is right/wrong or indifferent....it's just going to be a much more expensive one than it would have been if you'd teamed up with a builder initially and let them guide you
 
Fabrik8 said:
I haven't met the guy yet, and I've only spoke with him twice and a few emails, so that's probably not what's going on. He does do a lot of high-end though, mostly in Plaza Midwood and surrounding areas of Charlotte. I've seen his work though, which is why I got in touch with him (he's done a lot of projects with my architect). He's probably not looking for work, put it that way.... Also, Charlotte tax. I've sent just the concept package to 2 other builders in that area, and got similar numbers with barely any communication.
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Dude, I love ya.
But I dont think you understand how weird you are.
Let's use nicer language...how atypical you are.

When you have an architect at all for a residential building you are in the 1% of what most contractors quote.
When you have an architect for a garage you are 1% of the 1%.
They already know you are detailed and a PITA...if you ask them about material selection it gets worse...


FYI this AM I sent a quote for a $4.6MM power plant project. My quote was 3/4 (.75) of a page long plus separate attached T&Cs.
I used to do 8 page quotes then I realzied I was running people away BECAUSE of my thoroughness...
 
Ron said:
Dude, I love ya.
But I dont think you understand how weird you are.
Let's use nicer language...how atypical you are.

When you have an architect at all for a residential building you are in the 1% of what most contractors quote.
When you have an architect for a garage you are 1% of the 1%.
They already know you are detailed and a PITA...if you ask them about material selection it gets worse...


FYI this AM I sent a quote for a $4.6MM power plant project. My quote was 3/4 (.75) of a page long plus separate attached T&Cs.
I used to do 8 page quotes then I realzied I was running people away BECAUSE of my thoroughness...
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All of this is a big learning process to me.

I blame my father who was a GC, but also very much like me (he was previously a PE), but who passed right after we bought the house. He sent some graph paper sketches about 2 weeks before that, that I can't bring myself to look at. I can't even write that sentence without getting a pit in my stomach.


So you're saying the best two options are:
  1. Use the guy who almost always works with architects, and pay a lot.
  2. Draw something on a napkin, pass it to some builder who I run into at the Mexican restaurant at lunch time, and pray. In other words, start from scratch.
:D
 
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Fabrik8 said:
All of this is a big learning process to me. I blame my father


So you're saying the best two options are:
  1. Use the guy who almost always works with architects, and pay a lot.
  2. Draw something on a napkin, pass it to some builder who I run into at the Mexican restaurant at lunch time, and pray. In other words, start from scratch.
:D
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No. Not at all.
I liken it to technical sales. The key is to learn how to get what you want without hurting the sensibilities of the other party.

What I would suggest is, find a builder you like their work or that comes highly recommended. Set up a meeting. First meeting keep it loose and high level. Maybe show him a photo of a similar setup you like and say "thinking something along these lines from a look standpoint. Is that feasible."
Then hush and listen.
Get to know him let him get to know you.
Then as the process unfolds you can trickle out your info. Im not suggesting to be deceitful. Im saying not to overwhelm him.
I get the sense that you are knowledgeable but reasonable. You dont want him assuming you are ignorant and unreasonable. So develop the repoir first. Get his barriers down. Then get into the weeds.

If you start nice but in the weeds the assumption is that you will turn asshole ad in the weeds.
 
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Fabrik8 said:
All of this is a big learning process to me.

I blame my father who was a GC, but also very much like me (he was previously a PE), but who passed right after we bought the house. He sent some graph paper sketches about 2 weeks before that, that I can't bring myself to look at. I can't even write that sentence without getting a pit in my stomach.
:D
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I would start here! Check out these sketches!
1st, I bet they're awesome.
2nd, Especially if he was a GC... He obviously had an idea of what you are trying to achieve, and knew what type of restrictions/codes you would need to meet
3rd, He knew you better than 99% of anyone else on earth, and only wanted what to help the best way he knew how.

Your dad, like most of our dad's around here, I'm sure was a hell of man!

Like Ron said (my dad's name btw!), find a builder that comes recommended, bring your dad's sketches, and say, "here is what we had discussed, and kinda the direction I want to head to"


Unless your dad's sketches are WAAAYY OFF.... then nevermind! lol
 
Fabrik8 said:
Thanks for obscuring all of the things I'm telling myself to talk myself out of it. :D
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I think his comment should enhance, not obscure all the things you're telling yourself. You don't have the time to hound the subs to keep them on the job or make sure they're doing the right thing when the sub subs out his job to the C team.
 
awheelterd said:
I think his comment should enhance, not obscure all the things you're telling yourself. You don't have the time to hound the subs to keep them on the job or make sure they're doing the right thing when the sub subs out his job to the C team.
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Yeah, I think I misinterpreted that at first glance.
 
I legit need my own Random Thoughts thread.

So it's come to my attention that if I hire anyone unlicensed to do stuff on my garage build (assuming I'm the GC), then I may need to carry worker's comp insurance for them.

Anyone have experience with what the regs actually are? I'm really not sure this would be an issue, but it's potentially financially crippling enough (if anything were to happen) that I want to find out more to get ahead of things if it's actually needed. Very hypothetical, because I'm not sure I'm going to be my own GC (still deciding) and I'm not sure I would be hiring any unlicensed subs.

I saw some affidavits about such stuff, and went "fuuuuuuuuuuuu....".
 
Not all your subs are going to be licensed only the HVAC, plumbing and electrical will be. But all your subs should be insured BUT this will also mean that they typically charge more because they aren’t fly by night people.

We require all our subs to have liability and workers comp and have us listed as additionally insured. I can promise you that turns away a ton of potential subs that are to lazy to do the paper work or don’t want to pay for the insurance.


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