14 bolt front tech

[Chris_Keziah]

I believe busted knuckle will do this for similar cost as well. It would probably be even cheaper with a 14 bolt and inner c's to turn in as "cores" also.



Be careful with the 450 and 550 stuff, the brakes are different. Might be hard to find a smaller brake package to fit a 17" wheel. I know my 450 will not fit a 17" wheel for sure....

Yeah they're similar in cost. $1,330 for housing with seals. Still needs knuckles, unit bearings, shafts, etc.

14 Bolt Steering Axle Assembly with 05+ SuperDuty outers (Rockwell size knuckle)

 

[Van-go]

I believe busted knuckle will do this for similar cost as well. It would probably be even cheaper with a 14 bolt and inner c's to turn in as "cores" also.


Be careful with the 450 and 550 stuff, the brakes are different. Might be hard to find a smaller brake package to fit a 17" wheel. I know my 450 will not fit a 17" wheel for sure....

Pretty sure the C’s are the same. I’d be swapping all my SRW60 parts over to it.
All I’d need is the beam with C’s

 

[Mac5005]

Depending on price and what you already have on hand, check out the ultimate 60 from ECGS.

It’s really not that expensive for a housing with tubes and inner C’s.

The perk is the nice high pinion.

Just saying if you are spending 13-1500 on housing/tubes/C I’d rather have the high pinion to get the drive Up a bunch over the 14b.

 

[NickMaul]

Depending on price and what you already have on hand, check out the ultimate 60 from ECGS.

It’s really not that expensive for a housing with tubes and inner C’s.

The perk is the nice high pinion.

Just saying if you are spending 13-1500 on housing/tubes/C I’d rather have the high pinion to get the drive Up a bunch over the 14b.

Rockwell’s have a pretty decent high pinion too IIRC












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Dawnpatrol]

That looks so easy to make. I wanna know how lol

This is just speculation, but it looks as if he is just retubing them with 3.75" tube and likely having the tube machined down to 3.5" where it enters the pumpkin. This is assuming that the stock SD C that he is resuing is 3.75" ID. Have you priced out the cost for 3.75" DOM?

 

[Van-go]

This is just speculation, but it looks as if he is just retubing them with 3.75" tube and likely having the tube machined down to 3.5" where it enters the pumpkin. This is assuming that the stock SD C that he is resuing is 3.75" ID. Have you priced out the cost for 3.75" DOM?

Nope. Just starting to do some research. Not is a huge hurry, but just want to have a plan.

 

[Chris_Keziah]

This is just speculation, but it looks as if he is just retubing them with 3.75" tube and likely having the tube machined down to 3.5" where it enters the pumpkin. This is assuming that the stock SD C that he is resuing is 3.75" ID. Have you priced out the cost for 3.75" DOM?

Hopefully that's not how they're doing it. Leaves you with .375" thick tubes in the housing.

Edit: I'm an idiot engineer who can't do math sometimes.

 

[Dawnpatrol]

Hopefully that's not how they're doing it. Only leaves you with 1/4" thick tubes in the housing.

I doubt they are boring out the cast pumpkin, that would be even worse I think since there is less material there. What is common for 3.75" DOM? If it is 0.5" that would leave 3/8" wall inside. Could sleeve it but then it is getting even more complicated.

 

[Van-go]

Hopefully that's not how they're doing it. Only leaves you with 1/4" thick tubes in the housing.

Check yo math engineer

 

[Mac5005]

I doubt they are boring out the cast pumpkin, that would be even worse I think since there is less material there. What is common for 3.75" DOM? If it is 0.5" that would leave 3/8" wall inside. Could sleeve it but then it is getting even more complicated.

Most are boring out the the center section.

The ribbed dually and newer can housings have .75 to 1.0” thick castings around the 3.5” tubes.

Boring them for 3.75 or 4.0” tubes still leaves more material around the tube than early srw housings.

That’s also why you don’t see many 4.0 or 3.75 tube axles with early srw centers.

 

[1stgenxxx]

unless you're in a 1000hp hill killer...Is it really worth the cost and time vs a SD 60? I get that the 14b center is strong but its low pinion and a ton of work.

 

[Chris_Keziah]

Check yo math engineer

opps, I can be dumb at times.

 

[Van-go]

So 05+ f450/f550 2wd/4wd front axles have different looking inner C's. Are they still compatible with the 250/350 knuckles? want to be sure before I source a 2wd beam axle to cut and press into the 14bolt housing.

 

[paradisePWoffrd]

from my understanding, the inner and outer knuckles on a f450/550 are different from the f250/350. The 450 ones have bigger spacing and balljoints, but can share the same unit bearing. The 450/550 stuff is also wider than 250/350.

99-04 smaller unit bearing, Dana 50/60 same outer

05-08 larger unit bearing hence the 7k rating

09-14 same unit bearing but knuckle lightened and castor different

05up f450- 550 same unit dimension, larger ball joints, larger spread, 1550 axles, only on 4.88 and lower geared axles.

Here are some comparison pics between a 05up Dana 60 knuckle and an 05 - up super 60 knuckle (4.88 and lower)

 

[Caver Dave]

from my understanding, the inner and outer knuckles on a f450/550 are different from the f250/350. The 450 ones have bigger spacing and balljoints, but can share the same unit bearing. The 450/550 stuff is also wider than 250/350.

Just confirmed with a buddy that swapped his 2wd F-450 to 4wd.
He initially bought & geared an '05+ F-350 D60 and found it a few inches too narrow
He said the knuckles on the original beam axle were identical to the replacement (2nd) F-450 D60 he purchased, but did say that axle used the same 8-lug unit bearings as the previous F-350 axle....

 

[Van-go]

Just confirmed with a buddy that swapped his 2wd F-450 to 4wd.
He initially bought & geared an '05+ F-350 D60 and found it a few inches too narrow
He said the knuckles on the original beam axle were identical to the replacement (2nd) F-450 D60 he purchased, but did say that axle used the same 8-lug unit bearings as the previous F-350 axle....

I knew it was more narrow. Coils mount to C’s on 250/regular 350’s and to the tube on 450/550’s.
Just didn’t know if the knuckles and C’s were interchangeable for my purpose.

 

[paradisePWoffrd]

I knew it was more narrow. Coils mount to C’s on 250/regular 350’s and to the tube on 450/550’s.
Just didn’t know if the knuckles and C’s were interchangeable for my purpose.

the knuckles and Cs from the 450 are stronger and give more options for axles in the future. The big bell RCVs have been proven to fit in the F350 knuckles, though. So I would use whichever you get the best deal on.

 

[jeepinmatt]

Just to muddy the water some more: There are also 11-16 "fatboy" F350s that have the same axles as the F450/550, but with 8x225? Bolt pattern.

 

[shawn]

Just to muddy the water some more: There are also 11-16 "fatboy" F350s that have the same axles as the F450/550, but with 8x225? Bolt pattern.

That started in 08. They're the same width as 450, but mostly the same guts as regular F350. They do have a better steering angle, though.... Accomplished with the same steering box from the 450/550

450 stuff was largely the same from 08-16, but 350 parts (brakes, knuckles, unit bearings) changed every couple of years.

 

[jeepinmatt]

That started in 08. They're the same width as 450, but mostly the same guts as regular F350. They do have a better steering angle, though.... Accomplished with the same steering box from the 450/550

450 stuff was largely the same from 08-16, but 350 parts (brakes, knuckles, unit bearings) changed every couple of years.

Cool. Do the 08-10s have the same ridiculously huge fender flares? I know the 11+ are easy to spot.

 

[Van-go]

That started in 08. They're the same width as 450, but mostly the same guts as regular F350. They do have a better steering angle, though.... Accomplished with the same steering box from the 450/550

450 stuff was largely the same from 08-16, but 350 parts (brakes, knuckles, unit bearings) changed every couple of years.

Pardon my ignorance. Getting confused.

If I’m following correctly, the f450/550 and special f350’s have bigger C’s, knuckles and more steering angle?
Or are they just wider?
Can 05 up 250’s and regular 350 axles get the same steering angle and fit the 1550 joints?

If I source an f450/550 2wd beam axle to cut down and press into my 14 bolt center, can I use my f250 knuckles brakes etc?

 

[shawn]

Cool. Do the 08-10s have the same ridiculously huge fender flares? I know the 11+ are easy to spot.

Yeah, same as 450s, but 8 lug. The 350 is super rare, though. I don't see many of them.

 

[paradisePWoffrd]

Should probably change the title or separate this thread out. It is becoming more about SD 60s vs 14b.

Back on topic.... I havent tried this, but the info looks sound. From the Pirate SD60 thread. There is some good info in it, but you have to wade through alot.

fwiw in 2013 the 250 and 350 went from 13.5ish to 14.5ish rotors


2008-2012 450 factory pickups had smaller brakes than 450/550 cab and chassis did

another oddball thing is starting in 2008 they offered the f350 in a wide track which had the wider housing like the 450/550. it has the sharper turning radius like the 450

05-up f450/550 have 45 degree steering. 05-up f250/350 i think are around 38-40 degrees stock. I havent measured it but 99-04 was 32 degrees stock. It is virtually impossible to use much more than 40 degrees with a link type suspension and 40" tires due to link to tire clearance with available mounting points on these axles. Any of them can turn 45 degrees by cutting stops..

I believe the answers are here, but, 05- current f250/350 castings go like this:

05-08 is gen 1

09-12.5 is gen 2, same as gen 1 with a hole in it and slightly different caster, swappable with gen 1

12.5-16 is gen 3, caliper mounting ears moved apart for bigger brakes, bj spread the same as all 05-up

17-18 is gen 4, 1550 shafts and very different casting from others

I can add casting id numbers later if wanted..

F450/550 stuff is different bj spread. Different animal..

Casting numbers

9c34-a is 09-12

Hc34-a is 2017-up

Dc34-a is 2012.5-2016

05-08 doesnt have casting numbers like these

Okay, so just to make it clear, if one wants 8x170 on a 2005+ F-550, use a 2005+ F-250 unit bearing and a 2003 F-550 rotor.

Found it by accident here - Ford Super 60 Axle Question


Okay, so here is a really weird (dumb?) question.


Does anyone know whether it would be possible to mix and match brake components on the F-250 and F-550 axles?

I looked up information for the model year 2006, XL package so no goofy wide track on the F-250.

The F-250 has a front rotor with an outside diameter of 13.65 inches.

The F-550 has a front rotor with an outside diameter of 14.53 inches.


Some '04 F450 & F550's use the same size (14.53") rotors as the 05 and newer F450 and F550's but with a 8 on 170mm bolt pattern. Use them with the '05 and newer F350 unit bearing and the '05 and new F450/F550 caliper to convert '05 and newer F450/F550's to 8 lug.

Swapping over to unit bearings with a 8-on-170mm wheel bolt pattern requires 14.53-inch brake rotors from an '04 Ford F-450 (Brembo PN 27271). In order to install an '05 Super 60 in our '02 F-250 we used Fabtech Motorsports' four-link conversion kit, a set of '05 F-350 locking hubs, '05 Ford F-350 unit bearings, '05 F-550 brake calipers, and '04 F-450 brake rotors.

If I am repeating information, I apologize.

This post is referring to a 2005/2008 (not sure which was which of the two) F-550 Super 60 "Fat Boy" 10 lug axle.

I do not know if you were referring to the earlier (1999-2004, 8 lug) F-450 / F-550, but I just measured one of mine (2005+, 10 lug) tonight and it is 84" WMS to WMS, which as I recall is what they said in the article covering the axle for the magazine. So complete as factory 2005+ "Fat Boy" Super 60 is 84" WMS to WMS.

As for further information, I do not know if this will help anyone but I want to get it available and out there.

The width inside the factory spring towers is ~37.5". So unmodified a person needs that much to clear inside wheel arches with the factory sized tires (9" x 32").

The dual adapters, wheel adapters, whatever you want to call them add ~3" each side (~6" total) to the WMS/WMS width. Without them you would be at ~78". This might also be the source of the other WMS/WMS measurement, but that is conjecture. They space out the wheel mounting surface (I believe the idea is to offset the same amount as the wheel is offset thereby effectively centering the expression of the load with the bearing). However, they also change the pattern. It goes from a very small 10 lug pattern (that I do not know the spread of) to the 225mm "small" 10 lug pattern seen at the wheels. Logically I would assume changing the unit bearing (F-250) and the brake rotor (2004 F-450) results in ridding yourself of this "inner" 10 lug pattern.

Lastly, the factory lockout is inset ~1.5" from the WMS of the dual adapter. Removal of that adapter should leave the lock out face protruding from the "inner" 10 lug pattern by ~1.5". The protection is nice with the adapter, but it requires dual wheel offset. SRW wheels should still be wider at the rim lip than the lockout face, though - so not a huge concern.

 

[paradisePWoffrd]

Here is an info dump, since i was in that thread. Most likely info people know, but a good reference.

"QUOTE=TBItoy"

2011 v 99-04


Tore into the 2011 axle today. Had it sitting right beside my 14b front with 99-04 style outers. Lots of comparisons to follow


first up, unit bearings.

2011 top, older bottom.

Roller bearing in top, needle bearing is already removed from older UB

It would be very difficult to change bolt pattern with newer UB. See on older UB, there is a "flange" that the studs are in, plenty of room for new and smaller patterns.

New style there is NO room for new pattern, bearing housing is HUGE.

You can see the 2 types of drive splines here. New style has a smaller diameter and larger splines, old style uses the same drive slugs as "standard" D60 wheel hubs.

stub shafts


Here are the stub shafts.


2011 top 35 spline

99-04 style 10 Factory 35 spline chromo

stock 99-04 30 spline

Brakes


here is a 99-04 rotor on the 2011.


The caliper/caliper bracket did not fit. The bolt spread is a couple inches wider on the older knuckle

2011

99-04

99-04

2011

shaft size


roller bearing area on shaft is ~1.773"


This means you could run a 40 spline shaft with the stock roller bearing in the UB.

Also, knuckle comparisons


2011

1480 shaft in 99-04, note, NO extra room for larger shaft

2011 knuckle, plenty of room! bring on the 1550!

also there is a nice "notch" in the stock 2011 knuckle.


looks like there is plenty of room for some machine work and a steering arm that is "keyed" to the knuckle.

 

[Van-go]

Should probably change the title or separate this thread out. It is becoming more about SD 60s vs 14b.

Back on topic.... I havent tried this, but the info looks sound. From the Pirate SD60 thread. There is some good info in it, but you have to wade through alot.

Here is an info dump, since i was in that thread. Most likely info people know, but a good reference.

"QUOTE=TBItoy"

2011 v 99-04


Tore into the 2011 axle today. Had it sitting right beside my 14b front with 99-04 style outers. Lots of comparisons to follow


first up, unit bearings.

2011 top, older bottom.

Roller bearing in top, needle bearing is already removed from older UB

It would be very difficult to change bolt pattern with newer UB. See on older UB, there is a "flange" that the studs are in, plenty of room for new and smaller patterns.

New style there is NO room for new pattern, bearing housing is HUGE.

You can see the 2 types of drive splines here. New style has a smaller diameter and larger splines, old style uses the same drive slugs as "standard" D60 wheel hubs.

stub shafts


Here are the stub shafts.


2011 top 35 spline

99-04 style 10 Factory 35 spline chromo

stock 99-04 30 spline

Brakes


here is a 99-04 rotor on the 2011.


The caliper/caliper bracket did not fit. The bolt spread is a couple inches wider on the older knuckle

2011

99-04

[/QUOTE]
That helps alot. I was reading through that thread on pirate, but it was 218 pages yesterday.

Sounds like I need to buy the DANA builder inner C's mentioned earlier and use 3.5in DOM pressed into my dually 14 bolt.

Only other option I can think of is to remove the tubes from my 60 and machine out my 14 bolt housing for the 3.75 tubes.
Will need to take measurements of 60 so I can use stock length shafts in my 14 front.