clunkers for cash bill

rockcity

rockcity

everyday is a chance to get better
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Location
Greenville, NC
Read about it, got kinda excited then realized its only for new cars. I cant afford a brand new car so that counts me out.

I think the people it might really benefit are companies who run fleets. They can trade in their older fleet, get 4,500 dollar per truck, and then buy new...seems like a good way to save a ton of cash.

Im under the impression that a person driving a vehicle on that list, who buys new, would already have purchased a new, more fuel efficient vehicle already.
 
Since the amount of $$ you get is dependent on the diference between ratd fuel economy of teh vehicles, I'm curious to know which system they'll use for creating the numbers.
Just recently, the EPA basis for how the ratin gwas calculated changed... so it more accurately reflected reality (in theory, anyways). This actually DECREASED the numbers people were seeing on the tags. Vehicles rated one year at 28 were suddenly at 24, etc.

So if they use the rating given to it the year it was produced, the metrics will actually be different for old vs new - making it harder to actually get the credit.

My biggest beef is with the idea it has to be a NEW car. That is what makes it clear is this is more about bolstering sales than actually about the environment. Many "old clunkers" still get better mileage than todays cars - e.g. mid 90s Escort, consistently 33 mpgs - or even just say a 3 year old vehcile that does better?
 
another way to look at it:

Cash for Clunkers Bill Passed by the House of Representatives

On June 10, 2009, The United States House of Representatives passed the environmentally harmful "Cash for Clunkers" bill. If made a law in its current form, this will prohibit automotive recyclers and dismantlers from harvesting and reselling engines from vehicles turned in under the program. This "Cash for Clunkers" program would force the destruction of certain vehicles' engines. Versions of this legislation under review in the United States Senate would also force the destruction of transmissions and drive train components in these vehicles. "Cash for Clunkers" will adversely affect both the environment and the automotive recycling industry - recycled parts save C02 emissions, energy, and our earth. We must take action.

The "Cash for Clunkers" program is a proposed inclusion to the American Clean Energy and Security (ACES) Act. In its current form, the Cash for Clunkers Temporary Vehicle Trade-In bill would prohibit recyclers from harvesting and selling engines from vehicles receiving an 18 mile per gallon or less rating. The automobile repair businesses and consumers who purchase these recycled vehicle components would be faced with a decline in available parts. Recyclers and consumers both rely on parts from recycled vehicles not only because of their substantial savings in reducing repair costs and lowering insurance premiums, but because of the very strong environmental benefits as well.

The United States Senate is also considering other versions of similar legislation and will likely be acting on this in the near future. Senator Debbie Stabenow (D-MI) has put forth a proposal which would allow automotive recyclers to sell individual drive train components. Another proposal put forth by Senator Diane Feinstein (D-CA) does not include that allowance and also provides for stricter fuel mileage requirements.


What can you do to help?

Make sure members of congress know that you oppose the Cash for Clunkers Temporary Vehicle Trade-In bill! If you are unable to schedule a personal visit, you can fax or mail a letter to your senator of representative district office.
 
and from another guy who is not in US


Same here in Germany, similar to the UK.
Right now they took about 800k cars older than 9 yrs off the road and scrapped them. We're talking totally perfect Audi A3's for example which had a value abouve the 2500€ you'll get as scrap allowance now, but market prices dropped the day the government announced the programm. They sold the same amount of new cars, mostly korean and romanian sub compactsfor less than 10k€.
The effect right now is that a big number of small shops have to close because they don't have customers with older cars to do maintenance and repair on, people have to go to the dealership for service to have warranty. A lot of used car dealers close, because they cannot sell their used cars in the 5-15k pricerange anymore with people buying new cars with scrap allowance for this money. So a 15k compact kIA is now better than a 5 yr old BMW
Junk yards close because scrap metal is down to 15€/ton and they have way too much stock. The export numbers are down 1.5b€ because all the cars that went from Germany to Africa are now scrapped and not sold anymore.
 
I have fought versions of this in the past. It really is an attempt to get older more polluting cars off the road, but IMHO its miss guided.

People seem to think that newer more efficient cars are somehow better for the environment. If you completely neglect the impact of designing, building, storing, and shipping these vehicles than yes in the long run newer more efficient vehicles are better.

HOWEVER, how much energy is needed to design a new car, to harvest the natural resources, to transport the natural resources, to refine the natural resources into raw materials, to transport the raw materials, to build the car, to store the car, to ship the car? How much natural resources are consumed? Are all new cars 100% recyclable? How long before that trickles far enough into the supply line that all vehicles are made from recycled material? How much energy will be needed to recycle the materials?

SO, if none of what I listed above requires any input at all then yes new more fuel efficient cars are better. If any of that is an impact than the newer more efficient cars are not making as much sense. How long before there is a pay off?

Oh and now there may be a precedent to get rid of older cars. So how long does a vehicle have to be on the road before it overcomes the impact of a new vehicle?

I suspect that the energy and resources required for new vehicles, even more efficient vehicles, is significant. Unless someone can show me otherwise I believe that keeping older vehicles on the road is better for the environment than new vehicles.

I will never buy a brand new car.

Given this argument its not hard to see why I believe that motorcycles are by far the most cost effective and most environmentally friendly means of transportation(given the right climate). Think about how much more energy and resources are required to build an transport one car compared to say 4 motorcycles.

Honestly in my mind this is nothing more than another solution desired by a limited section of our society that is looking for a problem. This country no longer seems interested in looking at problems and trying to solve them. It's all about solutions supported by opinions looking for problems.
 
Isn't it ironic, though?

it's GREEN to recycle. So the gov't says "don't do it - buy new!"
it's GREEN to use used parts. So the gov't says "don't do that! buy a new car!"
it's GREEN to reduce industry. So the gov't says "we need to sell more cars... build new ones... create more demand!!!"

They contradict themselves every friggen breath.
 
well if you read the bill off KBB.com it clearly says its to bolster the failing auto industry. The Environmental effects are just a bonus.
 
So who is this money going to? We the people.
So where is this money coming from? The federal government.
And where do they get money from? We the people.
So how does that help us?
 
hell, at least the tax $$$ comes from everyone. Typically the people that pay the most taxes get paid the most and are most likely to buy new cars. So, maybe the folks that now pay the most taxes will benefit from some new program since they are most likely to buy the new cars
 
this bill is so f'ing rediculous i dont know where to start. We are in a debt crisis. The economy crashed because people took on more debt than they can afford. So to bail us out His plan is to give us a credit so that we can take on debt to buy cars. If i am correct, you dont even get the money until you file taxes in april so you have to carry the $4500 or so until tax time.

Not only that, but you have to get (i think) 10 mpgs better in your new vehicle. Well, what cars get better mpgs than what you are driving now. Honda, Toyota, Kia, suzuki.

This is just going to push the foreign auto makes further out ahead of the domestics.
 
rockcity said:
Typically the people that pay the most taxes get paid the most and are most likely to buy new cars. So, maybe the folks that now pay the most taxes will benefit from some new program since they are most likely to buy the new cars
Click to expand...

True, but those in the top tax bracket.. how many of them own cars worth less than 3500-4500?

Hell, I got a little enthusiastic when I first read it, thinking I'd get an EXTRA 3500 when trading in my tow rig on a new truck, but nooo.. that's total trade-in. :poop:

I think we're gonna be seeing lots of people who shouldn't be buying new cars going out and buying new cars... and then getting them repo'd when they can't make the payments.
 
Rich said:
I think we're gonna be people who shouldn't be buying new cars going out and buying new cars... and then getting them repo'd when they can't make the payments.
Click to expand...

exactly as I see it.. these are the folsk that will use it, but should not use it.. so now our Gov't is the new Fannie and Freddie.
 
BigRedB2 said:
this bill is so f'ing rediculous i dont know where to start. We are in a debt crisis. The economy crashed because people took on more debt than they can afford. So to bail us out His plan is to give us a credit so that we can take on debt to buy cars. If i am correct, you dont even get the money until you file taxes in april so you have to carry the $4500 or so until tax time.
Not only that, but you have to get (i think) 10 mpgs better in your new vehicle. Well, what cars get better mpgs than what you are driving now. Honda, Toyota, Kia, suzuki.
This is just going to push the foreign auto makes further out ahead of the domestics.
Click to expand...


You need to read the links.

You don't actually get any of the $$$. The $$$ goes straight to the dealers. So, when you agree on a $20,000 purchase price on a car, the govt. picks up $4500 of the tab and you pay $15500. You actually never see the $$$

at least thats what i understand
 
rockcity said:
You need to read the links.
You don't actually get any of the $$$. The $$$ goes straight to the dealers. So, when you agree on a $20,000 purchase price on a car, the govt. picks up $4500 of the tab and you pay $15500. You actually never see the $$$
at least thats what i understand
Click to expand...


okay, so i misunderstood who gets the money. end result is still driving people to foreign auto makers.

Unless they put in a provision that it must be a domestic (or even a government owed)
 
BigRedB2 said:
t
Not only that, but you have to get (i think) 10 mpgs better in your new vehicle. Well, what cars get better mpgs than what you are driving now.
Click to expand...

Cars: The new one has to get at least 22 mpg. If the improvement is at least 4 mpg, the credit is $3,500. If the improvement is at least 10 mpg, the credit is $4,500.

Light trucks: The new one has to get at least 18 mpg. If the improvement is at least 2 mpg, the credit is $3,500. If the improvement is at least 5 mpg, the credit is $4,500.

Heavy-duty light trucks: The old one has to get 15 mpg or less, the new one has to get 15 mpg or more. If the improvement is 1 mpg (or if you trade in a qualifying work truck), the credit is $3,500. If the improvement is 2 mpg or more, the credit is $4,500.

Work trucks: Trade in any pre-2002 model year work truck and get a $3,500 credit toward a new one (or toward a heavy-duty light truck, as mentioned above).

In an effort to spur new-car sales, Congress is considering a program that would allow owners of cars and light trucks rated at 18 mpg or less (EPA combined) to trade those vehicles for vouchers worth up to $4,500 toward the purchase of more fuel-efficient new vehicles.
Click to expand...

Clearly designed for automotive sales, NOT Environmental effects!

Also, just because a car isnt an American Manufacturer, does NOT mean its not made in America!! They still create American Jobs. May not be as much as Ford or another domestic car company creates, but there are still jobs to be had from Toyota, Suzuki, Kia, Hyundai....

IMO, good deal if you have the money to buy a new car....which MOST of us dont have right now, so I see very little effect from this bill. And there is no way in hell they are going to provision it to only Domestic auto manufacturers....thats completely ridiculous.
 
I hate this bill.
Its fuckin balogna... this aint gonna help us one bit and the junk/scrap/repair/towing businesses are gonna suffer.
The stealers are already damn expensive. F a 100k 5 year warranty. At 100,001 is when you're gonna have you're problems.
I've said it before, this is all about the car companies and not us.
They sucked at makin cars to compete with the rest of the world. And Brazil took 10 years to run all their cars on grass.
WTF are we doin?

And For some reason the News jackholes keep picking on isuzus too:

First line below the grid: http://jalopnik.com/5285833/a-guide-to-the-cash-for-clunkers-bill

Fox News: http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video...alPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/

And all our trucks get minimum 18mpgs and we're all body on frame.

beater I think not.
 
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