Kodak rock closed?

This trail closure is Very disapointing, but not a surpise.... Someone Please open up a well ran, clean, and challenging off road park with no ATVs in NC. Anyone.... Anyone? The time is right...
 
Making it too difficult to get trail passes will just cause more people try to get away with riding the trails without purchasing them. Banning ATV's would be a problem since then do you also ban UTV's and dirt bikes? Then if you ban UTV's do you also ban small one-seater buggy's since they are the size of a Side-by-Side? Then what's next?

The best plans I have read is what we are already doing... volunteering for work days, continuing to educate our friends, the newbies, and younger wheelers on Tread Lightly/Low Impact wheeling, being proactive in picking up trash whenever we see it, politely telling people to stay on the trails, and not causing more problems by bringing them to the attention of the authorities/Forestry Service unless it is truly warranted (IMHO the more negative activities they hear about the greater chance of the place getting hut down).

A group of us are coming down on the weekend of the 20th and we will do all we can to keep ALL of the trails at the place we love to wheel open to the public!

Sean DeVinney
 
I don't think explaining the rules for 2 minutes and signing a paper saying you understand is too much to ask nor will it hurt sales at all. Anywhere else that requires any type of pass usually has something along these lines. I don't mean an application to get a pass, just a way to present the general rules.

Example:
A few 16-17 year old guys ride down from VA or somewhere a little ways away to ride for the weekend, they've never been. Being kids they don't take the time to read up too much cause they are 17 and just want to ride. They stop at the outpost, pay for their passes and the lady says "thanks have fun". They don't bother to read any of the stuff on the signs in the parking lot other than a quick glance at a map, then they take off and ride where they please and don't think it's a big deal. No one informed them otherwise so why should they think it matters?
Now let's say they get a pass and the lady says "no problem, I just need to make sure you understand how important it is to stay on the designated trails, and please don't litter. These trail systems count on volunteers and riders like you to keep it in great shape. Now please sign here saying you understand these rules and enjoy your trip!" Then give them a brochure that they may or may not choose to read, either way they got more info than just handing them the pass and saying have fun, and they have something to think about.
I highly doubt anyone will say "I hate those rules and that you just wasted 45 seconds of my life explaining that to me, I'm not buying one now". It doesn't need to be hard to get a pass, it just needs to more informative.
 
77GreenMachine said:
I highly doubt anyone will say "I hate those rules and that you just wasted 45 seconds of my life explaining that to me, I'm not buying one now".
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And if they do, great!
 
Find out when they sell the most passes and get a group of well spoken volunteers( maybe 10) to hang out at the outpost and talk to people as they come out. Maybe even print out a paper explaining the trail closures due to " going off trail" and littering issues. The off road uwharrie community is not that big. After a couple of weekends I think a decent percentage of people will be informed and maybe pass the message along to their buddies. It wouldn't cost anymore than a pack of printer paper and some volunteer hrs.
 
77GreenMachine said:
I don't think explaining the rules for 2 minutes and signing a paper saying you understand is too much to ask nor will it hurt sales at all.
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Have you actually been at the Outpost on a Saturday morning?

Now, if you want to talk about getting volunteers to man the doors and talk to people or hand out information, that's something else entirely.
 
It's literally an extra 45 seconds, rather its the lady selling the passes or volunteers like us standing there and handing out papers about closing, the whole idea is informing people better.
I think we have some great ideas here we just need to out them into action.

Print out a bunch of the papers explaining the situation, ask the outpost to include one with each pass. They are usually pretty understanding and willing to help.
 
Allow folks to pay an extra fee to be able to shoot (with frozen paintballs) folks who go off trail, litter, vandalize, etc.

I'd pay extra to do that. More $ for whomever and less folks out there fucking around. One shot with a frozen paintball and you will be rehabilitated!!
 
josh m said:
Find out when they sell the most passes and get a group of well spoken volunteers( maybe 10) to hang out at the outpost and talk to people as they come out. Maybe even print out a paper explaining the trail closures due to " going off trail" and littering issues. The off road uwharrie community is not that big. After a couple of weekends I think a decent percentage of people will be informed and maybe pass the message along to their buddies. It wouldn't cost anymore than a pack of printer paper and some volunteer hrs.
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That would be a good club event

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 2
 
shawn said:
I'll be sure to remember that when I'm waiting in line to pay for my fuel behind five people trying to buy day passes.
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Maybe during really busy times they just get a brochure and person behind the counter just politely ask to please read cause they are trying to close the trails if the rules are not followed and the brochure will explain everything and why. I think education is definitely a big part of this cause I don't think the importance of following the rules and why is as well know as people think especially to your occasional wheeler or first timers.
 
Go to the Ranger Station to get passes. Everyone gets to eyeball the Ranger(s), Shawn can fuel up quicker and some eductionizing can be accomplished.
 
It's not about me. My point is that it's not Chris Cagel's responsibility, and his business shouldn't have to bear the burden. The arguments about how much time it takes completely ignore the fact that IT TAKES TIME and he's paying his people by the hour to sell gas and groceries on thin margins.

If anything, what needs to happen is that we print up a pile of flyers explaining the closure, explaining Tread Lightly rules, etc, etc, and get a few people to man a booth by the front door next weekend. I don't think this is something Chris would mind, and it's not difficult to stand there and ask the folks coming out carrying a trail pass if they've got a minute.

NC4x4 can cover the costs of this if somebody else can head it up. I can bring a folding table and chairs, maybe some of the TreadLightly guys have a banner or other "branding" type stuff.
 
shawn said:
It's not about me. My point is that it's not Chris Cagel's responsibility, and his business shouldn't have to bear the burden. The arguments about how much time it takes completely ignore the fact that IT TAKES TIME and he's paying his people by the hour to sell gas and groceries on thin margins.
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Do they make anything at all on the passes? I'm guessing not. Likewise, the argument could probably be made that they wouldn't have much business without UNF right there.
 
jeepinmatt said:
Likewise, the argument could probably be made that they wouldn't have much business without UNF right there.
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That's a bullshit thing to say.

I guess he should have to pay to repave 109, too... since people couldn't get to his store if the road wasn't there.
 
shawn said:
That's a bullshit thing to say.

I guess he should have to pay to repave 109, too... since people couldn't get to his store if the road wasn't there.
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I'm speaking for someone else, but I think he's saying that the Outpost probably gets a significant portion of their business form the OHV crowd and if the trails are closed or if attendance decreases because PARTs of trails are closed it could effect their business.

I know that my friends and I have spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars (excluding trail passes) at the Eldorado Outpost. If it weren't for the UNF trails I would never have seen, heard of or visited his store.

therefore, he may be interested in doing a little extra to protect the forest that is the reasom most of his customers come there. Customers are OHV, ATV, hunters' fishermen, campers, cyclists, hikers, etc.
 
GotLime? said:
I'm speaking for someone else, but I think he's saying that the Outpost probably gets a significant portion of their business form the OHV crowd and if the trails are closed or if attendance decreases because PARTs of trails are closed it could effect their business.

I know that my friends and I have spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars (excluding trail passes) at the Eldorado Outpost. If it weren't for the UNF trails I would never have seen, heard of or visited his store.

therefore, he may be interested in doing a little extra to protect the forest that is the reasom most of his customers come there. Customers are OHV, ATV, hunters' fishermen, campers, cyclists, hikers, etc.
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It's still bullshit. It's not his responsibility, and advocating otherwise is just another sort of "you didn't build that" argument.
 
Not to mention the fact that it basically says "Hey, we have this problem amongst ourselves that we need to figure out how to solve. How about we enlist an outside party, against their will, to be responsible for addressing it on our behalf, with no remuneration except for the fact that we think they should do it because they'd probably be worse off if not for us. Deal?"
 
shawn said:
That's a bullshit thing to say.

I guess he should have to pay to repave 109, too... since people couldn't get to his store if the road wasn't there.
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:rolleyes: Handing out passes is a cost of doing business, having one of the only businesses right at the entrance to one of the only OHV areas in the middle of the state is a perk with a captive audience. Is it there job to inform everyone of the rules? No. Is it ours? No. Is it happening? No.

GotLime? said:
I'm speaking for someone else, but I think he's saying that the Outpost probably gets a significant portion of their business form the OHV crowd and if the trails are closed or if attendance decreases because PARTs of trails are closed it could effect their business.

I know that my friends and I have spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars (excluding trail passes) at the Eldorado Outpost. If it weren't for the UNF trails I would never have seen, heard of or visited his store.

therefore, he may be interested in doing a little extra to protect the forest that is the reasom most of his customers come there. Customers are OHV, ATV, hunters' fishermen, campers, cyclists, hikers, etc.
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Exactly my point.
 
jeepinmatt said:
Is it there job to inform everyone of the rules? No. Is it ours? YES. Is it happening? NO.
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FIFY. That's basically what the FS said at the December meeting -- that it was our job to police our own. They didn't have the resources to do it.
 
shawn said:
Not to mention the fact that it basically says "Hey, we have this problem amongst ourselves that we need to figure out how to solve. How about we enlist an outside party, against their will, to be responsible for addressing it on our behalf, with no remuneration except for the fact that we think they should do it because they'd probably be worse off if not for us. Deal?"
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We are feeling the effects of ATVs behavior and are trying address those issues w/o renumeration.

Evidently, you feel strongly about this Shawn. That's great. I respect that.

I think this whole thing is bullshit from top to bottom.
 
GotLime? said:
We are feeling the effects of ATVs behavior and are trying address those issues w/o renumeration.
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You get to use the trails. The fact that you blame the problem on "the ATVs" means you're part of the problem.

There were 40-50 people at that meeting in December, and if anybody saw things differently, they're free to speak up. But basically what I heard the FS say was that these are our trails to maintain. The FS doesn't have the resources. They look at the mountain bikers or the horse people and see organized groups that maintain their own areas, write grant applications to build and maintain new trails and facilities. Meanwhile, they look at us, and all we want to know is why they aren't fixing our problems for us.

Edit: we're lucky enough to have local management folks that believe in a place for OHV use within the forest. That could change. And when it does, we had better be self-sufficient.
 
Who benefits from URE being there and open?

1) The Rangers. Maybe not. I guess they could be USFS employees somewhere else?

2) Us.

3) Outpost

4) Local/Regional 4wd shops/stores/etc

5) Other non-street legal motorized users

6) Campers

7) Cyclists

8) Hunters

9) Fishermen

10) Boaters

11) Local restaurants/cabin rentals/gas stations

Who is damaged by this trail closing?

Does anyone benefit from it?

Who bears the repsonsibility to fix the issues?

I'm still struggling with relating this to any other "public service".

if there was a problem with school kids putting gum under the chairs in the library:

Would close the biography section of the libray?

Threaten other libray users that the library will close if they don't start "policing" the kids that come in after school?

Would we be asked to set up booths to educate school kids about the dangers of depositing thier used gum under chairs?

Would we fight amongst ourselves while the kids are in the other room putting gum under chairs?

I need to take a break: from this, from URE and maybe from wheeling altogether.
 
shawn said:
You get to use the trails. The fact that you blame the problem on "the ATVs" means you're part of the problem.

There were 40-50 people at that meeting in December, and if anybody saw things differently, they're free to speak up. But basically what I heard the FS say was that these are our trails to maintain. The FS doesn't have the resources. They look at the mountain bikers or the horse people and see organized groups that maintain their own areas, write grant applications to build and maintain new trails and facilities. Meanwhile, they look at us, and all we want to know is why they aren't fixing our problems for us.

Edit: we're lucky enough to have local management folks that believe in a place for OHV use within the forest. That could change. And when it does, we had better be self-sufficient.
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Thanks for sharing that Shawn. I'm going to think about that.

Do you see "us" as OHVs, ATVs, and SXSs?

maybe that's part of MY problem. I see "us" as OHVs, but we get lumped in with anyione who burns fossil fuel. I see these groups as very different but perhaps to the "outside world" we're all the same..................
 
GotLime? said:
maybe that's part of MY problem. I see "us" as OHVs, but we get lumped in with anyione who burns fossil fuel. I see these groups as very different but perhaps to the "outside world" we're all the same..................
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This.
 
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