Uwharrie Trail Map - 2010 Update, Need your Input!

I can see a few reasons why its easier to read, here is the direction I am going with the simplified version:

badinlaketrailmaprevise.jpg


Of course the path difficulties will be updated and brought up current with the regular version. But I am waiting till I have the regular version finalized to update the simplified version. Here is the direction the regular version is going:

badinlaketrailmaprevise.jpg


Largest change is a flip flop in the colors of the road warnings and obstacles of interest. I made the trail obstacles red so they are easier to read, and changed the road warnings to orange since they are less used.

I am slowly scrapping the generic names for the obstacles and trying to go with more official names. Most of which aren't made by myself, but what I hear the obstacles called most often when talking about URE/at URE.

Z-Turn: The switch back that includes the 5 or so point turn and the tree is shortened from "The Z-Turn" to "Z-Turn".

Peak Climb: Used to be called the "3 Path Climb" but to simply things I changed it to the Peak Climb. Because if you look at a Topographical map of the area and guesstimate where the Daniel trail goes it is up to the/near peak of a Mountain.

Scenic Peak: Another reason for the change of the "3 Path Climb" is this which is an addition and not a name change. More and more I see in threads that mention Daniel people mention the scenic views from the top there. Not to mention its a common place area to stop for lunch etc.

Rock Slab: Used to be the Rocky Stream Crossing, but maybe its me but I haven't seen a stream running through it since 2006. It has turned into more of a Rock Slab for people to play on, even though you can still tell where the water used to run.

Mountain Descent: Again like Daniel a main obstacle is at the top part of a mountain. So the bottom side of the trail is the descent down the Mountain. Hence Mountain Descent, and of course Mountain part of Rocky Mountain Loop.

Rest Flat: This wasn't a name change really but an addition for a nice place to sit and eat lunch on Dickey Bell. Its right after the mini switch back at the top where the trail opens up into a nice sized flat.

Bell Hill: This used to be the "Rocky Hill Climb", but to shorten things and to go with the trail name I put it as "Bell Hill". It has gained difficulty and popularity in the past years so it deserves a more official name.

Falls Rock Ledge: I simply combined the sentence I would always hear into a title. "You know that rock ledge on Falls Dam?" and from that you get "Falls Rock Ledge". It works I think.

I am not saying people have to go by these names for obstacles. But it is what makes sense to me, and since they aren't labeled on any other map there is no precedent. If anyone has better ideas for the names please feel free to post up. I just put together what I have all ready heard/ is common place, so feel free to get creative and if it sticks we will use it.
 
I tried to make some more room on the map. And I also made room to enlarge the "Tread Lightly" logo so its more readable. I also revised the color difficulty scheme again. Tried to eliminate light colors as much as possible and used darker/bolder colors that are easier to see on a white backdrop. At the same time I also made the color coded difficulty system flow a little better.

Cool Colors = Easier Trails
Light Green -> Dark Green -> Dark Blue

Warm Colors = Harder Trails
Orange -> Red

badinlaketrailmaprevise.jpg


I also scaled the main roads down from 10pt to 8pt thickness. And Highway 109 from 20pt to 15pt thickness. Considering the trails are a 4pt thickness it makes the map have a little bit more room also.

I don't know how much more I can make the map easier to read. It has darker/bolder colors, I have cleared up a little bit of space, and things like the Tread Lightly logo are larger/easier to read. I also scaled down the Parking symbols and other symbols to open it up more also.
 
FunkSkunk said:
Nice work on the map as always!! You do to much for us low-lifes!
:D
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Not sure about the last part there (low lifes???), but I try to make it as user friendly as possible for as many people as possible. And if people are having issues reading it, that is a serious issue.

I noticed I missed updating a little piece of it, so I will update it later this afternoon. Keep in mind this is the work in progress version for the Summer update. So it won't be finalized till later around June (if you notice the date of update is set for June 1st). Giving people plenty of time to get their input/feed back put in.
 
one thing that I don't get is some of your bypasses. You seem to be inconsistent, but maybe it's just me. For example:

On Dutch John you've marked it Red, but the hill climb is black with no bypass. So what you seem to be saying is that most of the trail is difficult, but this one hill climb is most difficult, but since there is no bypass you can't complete the trail.

The look at Daniel, you've made the whole trail black with easy bypasses. The truth is most of this trail is easy with a couple of most difficult obstacles that absolutely have no bypass. But you could easily get to the top of Daniel and spectate, then turn around and head back.

So I'm struggling to understand your rating. It seems to me that the trail is rated based on the level of difficulty to complete the trail from start to finish following the easiest path possible. So for example Falls Dam is easy and there are some challenging obstacles along the way, which you've done a great job pointing out. That being said if the overall trail is dark green, there is no point showing light green bypasses. I would only show obstacles on the trail that are harder then the trail rating, then show the bypass in the same color as the rest of the trail. If you can handle dark green, then its not important to know that there is a light green bypass, only that the there is a blue obstacle that you can choose to attempt or avoid.

Dickey Bell is the greatest example of where you seem to provide too much info. The trail is blue and yet you have light green bypasses. I like what you've done with bell hill, this is great info. Go left, right or center. Conversely the streams ledge bypass does not make sense to me, if the obstacle is blue then why bypass? I think what this shows is that really the trail is a dark green trail with a couple challenging but avoidable obstacles. Then the bypasses whould be dark green and the obstacles would be blue or orange and this would be more consistent.

Anyway, hope that makes sense and sounds constructive becasue I think you are real close to having a great map!
 
^woah, I feel like I just read a psychological breakdown of the map. "So what you really mean is..."

bigdog, those are some very valid points. Just pickin' with ya
 
DRaider90 they are all great maps, Lets not forget that a new visiter to the forest is looking to get in and out of the "trails" and some of the roads that get's them out to 109highway. the trail map is what they are after from my standpoint at the D P. They are trying to get back to their truck or camp. They not looking for Zeno's, Please don't take this the wronge way. A simplified version is what I need to help these people at that point. Maybe small enough to print two on a single peice of paper and cut in half and make smaller and if the map falls out of pocket, then half of litter. Just a thought
 
I will try to answer your questions etc as best I can. Let me know if I am on the wrong track, etc. Warning this won't be a short post. Lets also keep in mind the goal for this map is for this scenario: "Some guy that has never been wheeling takes a stock open/open vehicle on 235 street tires out for a break in run and wants to know about the area." while at the same time being useful/user friendly for the more experienced people.

On Dutch John you've marked it Red, but the hill climb is black with no bypass. So what you seem to be saying is that most of the trail is difficult, but this one hill climb is most difficult, but since there is no bypass you can't complete the trail.
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Dutch John is one of those trails that isn't straight forward as far as rating goes. In reality most of the trail is moderate at best when the trail is dry. BUT the Hill Climb is a "Difficult" obstacle for a stock vehicle even when dry. I remember very well last year when we spent over an hour and a half trying to get a Land Rover up it. And you are correct, if you cannot get up the Hill Climb you have to turn around and go back. Because it is more difficult than the rest of the trail. But lets not forget about the rain factor.

When it is wet things change drastically. If you are out there in a vehicle with street tires you could possibly get stuck on the trail when its raining/wet. And to reflect this the Forest Service has given it a "Difficult" rating. If you go down the switch back, and then can't make it up the Hill Climb when its wet you may end up stuck there on the trail if you can't make it back up the switch back. I have been out on Dutch John when it was raining on aggressive A/Ts, this is very possible for a truck with street tires.

So you have a trail that is mostly moderate when dry, then mostly difficult when wet. BUT the trail has a Hill Climb that can't be bypassed that is difficult when dry, and is extremely (or most) difficult to impassible when wet for a stock truck. So what do you rate the trail? Not to mention this trail has had a Difficult rating from the Forest Service for the longest time.

I couldn't bring myself to rate the entire trail Most Difficult because it just isn't. On the other hand I couldn't rate that trail moderate or moderate-difficult when it has a most difficult rated obstacle. So I did figured give it a difficult rating, and keep the hill climb as most difficult.

The look at Daniel, you've made the whole trail black with easy bypasses. The truth is most of this trail is easy with a couple of most difficult obstacles that absolutely have no bypass. But you could easily get to the top of Daniel and spectate, then turn around and head back.
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Daniel is just about as rough as Dutch John to rate. There are 2 sides to consider here. 1st off is the biggest thing, which is the reputation of Daniel. For the longest time, Daniel has been rated an "Extremely Difficult" trail by the Forest Service. And there for has gained a reputation of being the hardest trail, to the point its legendary for lack of a better term (I am sure there is one but lets just leave it at that).

Because I will agree most of Daniel is a moderate trail at best except for the two ledges (lets ignore the fact the 2nd ledge has been filled in). So you have 2 obstacles that don't have bypasses that are considered extremely difficult when the trail is dry. When the trail is wet they are impassible. Then you have the dead tree on the climb up after the Z-Turn (the 5 point turn or what ever you want to call it). That tree can cause you hell if you get stuck up against it. I know, I had to be winched sideways from my rear bumper once. Throw in the rutted hill that is forming before the 2 ledges, and you really have 4 obstacles that are very difficult.

So you have 4 difficult spots with no bypasses keeping in mind by Fall the 2nd ledge will be back in its full glory because of erosion/tire spin. And then you have the rest of the trail which is moderate mostly with plenty of bypasses etc. Unlike Dutch John we are talking 4 spots versus 1 spot. Combine that with the history of the trail being rated Extremely (Most) Difficult it ends up with that rating.

Also remember we are talking a bone stock open/open rig on some 235s. Do you really want them looking at the map, and saying hey maybe I will give that shot? Trust me this is something I have mulled over again and again.

So I'm struggling to understand your rating. It seems to me that the trail is rated based on the level of difficulty to complete the trail from start to finish following the easiest path possible. So for example Falls Dam is easy and there are some challenging obstacles along the way, which you've done a great job pointing out. That being said if the overall trail is dark green, there is no point showing light green bypasses. I would only show obstacles on the trail that are harder then the trail rating, then show the bypass in the same color as the rest of the trail. If you can handle dark green, then its not important to know that there is a light green bypass, only that the there is a blue obstacle that you can choose to attempt or avoid.

Dickey Bell is the greatest example of where you seem to provide too much info. The trail is blue and yet you have light green bypasses. I like what you've done with bell hill, this is great info. Go left, right or center. Conversely the streams ledge bypass does not make sense to me, if the obstacle is blue then why bypass? I think what this shows is that really the trail is a dark green trail with a couple challenging but avoidable obstacles. Then the bypasses whould be dark green and the obstacles would be blue or orange and this would be more consistent.
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You are 100 percent correct here and I actually have never thought of it this way. I can think of reasons why including trail accuracy, etc but you made a valid point right here:

If you can handle dark green, then its not important to know that there is a light green bypass, only that the there is a blue obstacle that you can choose to attempt or avoid.
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I can think of a couple scenarios but I keep coming back to this point. For example:

You decide to try a trail and find its too difficult. Lets say you are doing Rocky Mnt. Loop. You take the bypass around the Double Ledge and you think hey maybe I need to turn around. You take out the map and look at the next obstacle which is the Kodak Rock Garden. You see there are some hard lines but you also see it has a green bypass. If that bypass was orange (Difficult) they may decide to turn around. When in reality they could have easily bypassed Kodak Rock Garden and then turn on Saw Mill to bypass the rest of Rocky Mount Loop. They would have missed out on a good show, getting to see people playing on the rocks etc.

BUT then we go back to what you posted:

If you can handle dark green, then its not important to know that there is a light green bypass, only that the there is a blue obstacle that you can choose to attempt or avoid.
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So it really leaves it up in the air. Any other opinions on this? Because this is really something I had never thought about. I know its just a map, but humor me and post what you think.:beer:
 
burrellsjeep said:
This one
uwharrie_map2.gif
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Yes I think that was the revision I was referring to. I found it but it is a .art file which is AOL proprietary and of course I don't use AOL any more and I haven't been able to find a converter yet without paying $29.95.

Eli, if you notice the old map puts the priority on the trail system with the surrounding roads and info visually in the background. I suggest that on the uncluttered version you make the trail system the focal point and bring it to the foreground and push the non trail roads and info to the background. Making the trail system larger on the page and the rest of the roads and such smaller and maybe not to scale if need be will greatly enhance usability.
 
I think you get what I am saying. IMHO the trails should be rated based on the easiest path to complete. That approach would make Daniel all black, and Dutch John is either all red, or all black. That rating should keep the bone stock trucks off of those trails.

By showing the harder obstacles on the easier trails then riders can be confident that they will not get stuck on the trail, and no where to look for the challenging obstacles that would help confirm that they are ready to proceed to a more difficult trail. I like these extra details, and frankly I've never known the names for most of these obstacles before so I think that helps folks tell a story and trail leaders advise folks and make the ride more interesting.

To me Daniel is the one exception to all this because the view from the top is exceptional. Taking the Daniel trail from Rocky Mount to the top of Daniel "scenic peak" is worth the ride even if you know you are not going to attempt the obstacle. Not to mention there are some decent obstacles to attempt at what you call "rock slab" and "3 way decent".

That being said we should in no way under-rate the "z-turn" or the "peak climb" these are extremely difficult obstacles and should not be taken lightly. Frankly these are the reason that Dutch John should not be black. Can we really compare the hill climb on Dutch John to this obstacle? Folks should know that being able to complete Dutch John is not as difficult as being able to complete Daniel.
 
I wanted to throw out another idea; A general area map. I.E. how to actually get to Uwharrie. Too many times when getting gas in Albemarle I've had random people walk up to me asking, "You know 'bout that place, Yooouuu-wwwwhhhaaarrrr-eee?"

Had it happen once with a guy who drove his Brand new Jeep Commander up from Myrtle Beach. He was all upset, stomping the ground, getting discombobulated since he couldn't find the place.

Just a thought. A quick google maps or something along that line would be helpful for the first timers.
 
LR Max said:
I wanted to throw out another idea; A general area map. I.E. how to actually get to Uwharrie. Too many times when getting gas in Albemarle I've had random people walk up to me asking, "You know 'bout that place, Yooouuu-wwwwhhhaaarrrr-eee?"
Had it happen once with a guy who drove his Brand new Jeep Commander up from Myrtle Beach. He was all upset, stomping the ground, getting discombobulated since he couldn't find the place.
Just a thought. A quick google maps or something along that line would be helpful for the first timers.
Click to expand...
I gotta say that if they can make it to Albemarle from Myrtle Beach and can't get the rest of the way to URE then maybe it's best they don't fine it.

Seriously, if someone is heading out to the trails, camping or what ever, they should at lest be able to get to 109 on their own with all the internet/gps resources available after that Eli's map would be their guide.
 
Rox&Mud said:
I gotta say that if they can make it to Albemarle from Myrtle Beach and can't get the rest of the way to URE then maybe it's best they don't fine it.
Seriously, if someone is heading out to the trails, camping or what ever, they should at lest be able to get to 109 on their own with all the internet/gps resources available.
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You are correct, but it happens anyway.

The guy in the Commander was...yeah. They had significant confidence in the fact that their vehicle was "Trail Rated".
 
Responding to Rox&Mud... if you, or anyone, wants a .gif of one of our older versions just drop me a PM with you email address and I'll be happy to send you one. I don't have all of our old versions anymore as a hard drive crash a few years ago ate them. I have however been able to recover most of them.

Also, for anyone who still has an interest, the latest (up-to-date) version of our map is still hosted at: http://home.windstream.net/ezduzit/uwharrie.gif
 
Rox&Mud said:
Eli, if you notice the old map puts the priority on the trail system with the surrounding roads and info visually in the background. I suggest that on the uncluttered version you make the trail system the focal point and bring it to the foreground and push the non trail roads and info to the background. Making the trail system larger on the page and the rest of the roads and such smaller and maybe not to scale if need be will greatly enhance usability.
Click to expand...

badinlaketrailmaprevise.jpg
 
No, that's worse.

Take the "simple" map, and simplify it. Prune down or rearrange all the stuff at the margins so that you can make the important part of the map bigger. And take that other guy's advice about changing the colors. Painting an entire trail red only to call out a blue bypass doesn't make any sense.
 
what are you making your map with?

Ive got access to ArcGIS here at school, and if I can find an accurate DEM of the park I can knock something up in it pretty easy.
 
First thing is the old map that is working in a space of 848px × 1,100px. To better fit the map on a single page I am working in 800px x 944px. So even if I delete everything the biggest you can make the map before removing the even more important stuff like Badin Lake Campgrounds etc is this:

notgonnawork.jpg


I honestly don't see that as any bigger or more readable than the first uncluttered version. The only way to make the trail portion of the map larger is to scale down the roads on the top, or cut them out entirely. And if you scale the road section down and make the trail area larger you end up with what I have posted at the beginning of this page. It won't line up etc.

If was making a massive fold out map like the FS uses now sure it could be done easily. But fitting a large amount of information onto a single sheet of paper means things are going to be cramped. Other wise it makes having a new/different map pointless. If you delete all the obstacle locations, all the additional points of interest, all you have left that make this map different is the bypasses being marked.

As far as implementing what bigdog_06 and I were discussing earlier with the trail colors/difficulties I have all ready made that change in the normal "cluttered" map. I will transfer those changes to the "un-cluttered" map when the layout or how ever you want to put it isn't going to change anymore.

I am using Fireworks to make the map, so I am not being limited by what I can do/not do as far as the program goes. What I am limited by is the constraints of fitting a lot of information into a map that needs to fit on a single sheet of paper. There is so much to fit on this map consider the fact Chris actually blew the map up and split it into 4 pieces to put it up at the Outpost and it just looks about right that way. So you can almost say its un-realistic to try to cram it all on one page.

I am close to reaching the conclusion you can't have super simple and have the trail ratings, etc too. I really want to make versions of this map that everyone can use/enjoy, and make everyone happy. But after spending at least a 100 hours now on this thing (from start to where I am at now), I honestly don't think I can make everyone happy.
 
DRaider90 said:
I am close to reaching the conclusion you can't have super simple and have the trail ratings, etc too. I really want to make versions of this map that everyone can use/enjoy, and make everyone happy. But after spending at least a 100 hours now on this thing (from start to where I am at now), I honestly don't think I can make everyone happy.
Click to expand...

Now you are getting the idea... just do it your way and be happy with it. :)
 
The map with the full info is great all I was saying is a trail map with out all the other info would be easier to use on the trails.
Here is another idea for you. On the full version pull the extra trail info other than trail difficulty and add it to a trail only map for the back. With a trail only map for the back it should be large enough for all the trail info and still be easy to read. These are just ideas but like Don said, it's your map and you will never make everyone happy.
 
burrellsjeep said:
Rox & Mud,
If you want a copy of the old map, Right Click on the one here and click, save image as
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This is Rox&Mud,
I got the old map that you posted. I was simply offering an idea to Eli since some others seemed to agree that a simple trail map might be a good thing. Eli has lots of good info in what seems to be a small space and if the info was slightly rearranged it might be more helpful to all of us imho. I am in no way criticizing what he has done but trying to offer some, hopefully good, input.
 
My last stab is what I am going to call the "Classic Edition", it will be replacing or you may say its the new "simplified/un-cluttered edition". It is of course not complete but after 4 hours I have re-drawn the map essentially to fit the "classic" guidelines including trail/road thickness.

badinlaketrailmapclassi.jpg
 
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