Where are the employees?

[WARRIORWELDING]

I should have articulated myself better, I was talking with public sector unionized teachers in Illinois which probably a whole different beast than in NC. Full disclosure for me I was privately educated and I can barely do multiplication in my head, so it's no better there either.

I guess the next question is how does the public education system really work then? The picture I have is it's almost slave labor with no benefit and only people doing it for the love of the kids, and totally not for the time off at all.

What I will push back on the no teaching degree part of your comment is the people who I learned the most from in college were people doing it not as a full time gif. Example being former company board members teaching business classes and specific subject matter like that. Degree doesn't equal competence in my mind.

That's a broad question. Better answered in convo. If your genuinely interested a meal, couple beverages and a campfire would be a great meeting point. Want to talk with people in the trenches? I can definitely make that arrangement. Our door is always open. For the moment I better get back to paper work.

short answer....It is still a job. Not every employee is a shining star, some really are though. The biggest hurt for public education is the lack of parental involvement. The down side from a private standpoint is you cannot simply kick out or choose the population. That one hurdle alone will break most ambitious really good teachers. The straw that breaks the back is when administration does not support the teachers and the "bad" population" rules the roost. It has become sacrilege to actually fail kids or hold them back, much less punishment for acting out. And 'failing" kids, 99 percent do it to themselves. Kids with little to no interaction, refusing to do class work in class much less home work. Little John has a 20 average knows it and suddenly 6 weeks in his parent/ guardian calls cussing yelling and blaming a teacher for "failing" the student. It is the teachers fault despite multiple letters, emails, and phone calls over and above the daily contact and attempts at teaching Little John.

Students fail themselves, the public system refuses to let it happen. Rinse repeat til grade 10, 11, then 12. Welp you now graduated a child who cannot read past the 6 grade level and has little to no math skills much less the much needed awareness of social systems and governmental bodies. The education they have received is how to get passed along, do little to move up, and no earned success: Read another adult with a hand out or entitled to just exist without effort to excel.

 

[gslander]

I had a whole response written out only to come to the conclusion that I'm not going to change your mind on anything so it's a waste of my time.

That said, I think you nailed these two point...



Food for thought...you do realize in the points you're making that you're implicitly drawing the same conclusions with first responders, right? If you don't understand my point here, then you've made my point in my first sentence too.

Nah you can probably change my mind, I was serious when I was asking how it is on the inside and gave context of the educators I was talking to.

 

[gslander]

That's a broad question. Better answered in convo. If your genuinely interested a meal, couple beverages and a campfire would be a great meeting point. Want to talk with people in the trenches? I can definitely make that arrangement. Our door is always open. For the moment I better get back to paper work.

short answer....It is still a job. Not every employee is a shining star, some really are though. The biggest hurt for public education is the lack of parental involvement. The down side from a private standpoint is you cannot simple kick out or choose the population. That one hurdle alone will break most ambitious really good teachers. The straw that breaks the back is when administration does not support the teachers and the "bad" population" rules the roost. It has become sacrilege to actually fail kids or hold them back, much less punishment for acting out. And 'failing" kids, 99 percent do it to themselves. Kids with little to no interaction, refusing to do class work in class much less home work. Little John has a 20 average knows it and suddenly 6 weeks in his parent calls cussing yelling and blaming a teacher for "failing" the student. It is the teachers fault despite multiple letters, emails, and phone calls over and above the daily contact and attempts at teaching Little John.

Students fail themselves, the public system refuses to let it happen. Rinse repeat til grade 10, 11, then 12. Welp you now graduated a child who cannot read past the 6 grade level and has little to no math skills much less the much needed awareness of social systems and governmental bodies. The education they have received is how to get passed along, do little to move up, and no earned success: Read another adult with a hand out or entitled to just exist without effort to excel.

Good stuff thanks. Yea I would talk about this stuff around a camp fire for sure with both you and rcalexander, and whomever else. I'm a very open minded person and like I put it in context earlier, I was dealing with a totally different subset of public educator that culturally has a much different mentality around the job. I agree a lot of parents are pieces of shit and a pain in the ass and an obstruction to the process. So if the job is such a literal hell that people make it out to be, why do it? Is it ego? Hubris?

BTW we would also be talking shit about my line of work and I will join in on that!!

 

[jeepinmatt]

I'm going to come off as an ass here, but I'm good w/ that.

The "pay for performance" (i.e., "your pay should be based on how well you teach your students") is where you're dead wrong. This simply isn't how it works in public education so explicitly stating that to those who earn a living in that space makes you look like a dumb, insensitive ass (which is prob why they don't want to talk to you about it anymore; frankly, can't say I blame them). This is how it should work and largely how things work in the private sector, but not in the public education sector (I'm assuming we're talking about public educators here as they make up the majority of this population).

Aren't yall saying the same thing?

 

[Futbalfantic]

If they aren't understanding of stuff that is planned, that isn't a place you want to work for.

My second week into my new job I had to be out unexpected, no questions asked at all from leadership, I told my director if you were going to question this, this wouldn't be a good place for me to work.

I disagree with this. I’ve trained plenty of (entry level) new hires. And while there are outliers. If someone is calling out, requesting huge amounts of time off within their first (3?) months of on-boarding. They will have attendance problems and are not worth the time.

 

[Futbalfantic]

Aren't yall saying the same thing?

Public education =/= private education?

 

[DSM Turbos]

I disagree with this. I’ve trained plenty of (entry level) new hires. And while there are outliers. If someone is calling out, requesting huge amounts of time off within their first (3?) months of on-boarding. They will have attendance problems and are not worth the time.

I probably do fairly different work, but at my company and my team nobody is entry level, and we work the hours we need to get the job done, there aren't set hours, set places I need to work, etc. I'm not talking about entry level or retail, etc. I'm not also saying huge amount of time off, but in a week it was time here and there that I couldn't be available, sometimes an hour, sometimes a half day. If my work said nope I couldn't leave to take care of what I needed to, I would have said i'm finding a new job.

 

[Loganwayne]

I disagree with this. I’ve trained plenty of (entry level) new hires. And while there are outliers. If someone is calling out, requesting huge amounts of time off within their first (3?) months of on-boarding. They will have attendance problems and are not worth the time.

i understand this point of view, and why I was planning on waiting till I get back to really look. at the same time good jobs aren't always open. last time this company hired was 2 years ago, I waited to long to apply then and job was filled. The guy I'm interview with remembered reading my resume then and wished I would have applied sooner.
This also isn't an entry level position, and im not going to hide the fact i will be taking this time off. i plan on letting them know from the get go.

 

[awheelterd]

i understand this point of view, and why I was planning on waiting till I get back to really look. at the same time good jobs aren't always open. last time this company hired was 2 years ago, I waited to long to apply then and job was filled. The guy I'm interview with remembered reading my resume then and wished I would have applied sooner.
This also isn't an entry level position, and im not going to hide the fact i will be taking this time off. i plan on letting them know from the get go.

Telling them about your upcoming funeral during the interview process is great. Waiting until you're hired and then springing it on them 3 weeks out isn't.

 

[awheelterd]

That's a broad question. Better answered in convo. If your genuinely interested a meal, couple beverages and a campfire would be a great meeting point. Want to talk with people in the trenches? I can definitely make that arrangement. Our door is always open. For the moment I better get back to paper work.

short answer....It is still a job. Not every employee is a shining star, some really are though. The biggest hurt for public education is the lack of parental involvement. The down side from a private standpoint is you cannot simply kick out or choose the population. That one hurdle alone will break most ambitious really good teachers. The straw that breaks the back is when administration does not support the teachers and the "bad" population" rules the roost. It has become sacrilege to actually fail kids or hold them back, much less punishment for acting out. And 'failing" kids, 99 percent do it to themselves. Kids with little to no interaction, refusing to do class work in class much less home work. Little John has a 20 average knows it and suddenly 6 weeks in his parent/ guardian calls cussing yelling and blaming a teacher for "failing" the student. It is the teachers fault despite multiple letters, emails, and phone calls over and above the daily contact and attempts at teaching Little John.

Students fail themselves, the public system refuses to let it happen. Rinse repeat til grade 10, 11, then 12. Welp you now graduated a child who cannot read past the 6 grade level and has little to no math skills much less the much needed awareness of social systems and governmental bodies. The education they have received is how to get passed along, do little to move up, and no earned success: Read another adult with a hand out or entitled to just exist without effort to excel.

Absolutely spot on. The covid remote learning situation from 2020 just exacerbated this mentality by not letting anyone fail. My wife is a teacher as well and she said it's taking a lot of effort to even get the good kids to give a shit now. They all realized there were no consequences during remote learning and they are all expecting to pass no matter what now as well. There are some poor teachers out there, but the no 1 problem is shitty parents. If your kid gets a bad grade and your first instinct is to accuse the teacher or school for your kids failure, you're a shitty parent.

 

[RatLabGuy]

Public education =/= private education?

Public education =/= private business.

One has a clear product that has monetary value and generates revenue, giving a clear metric of success, while the other does not.
You simply cannot use the type of performance metrics that are used in Private industry for education scenarios and expect it to work out properly

 

[skyhighZJ]

Absolutely spot on. The covid remote learning situation from 2020 just exacerbated this mentality by not letting anyone fail. My wife is a teacher as well and she said it's taking a lot of effort to even get the good kids to give a shit now. They all realized there were no consequences during remote learning and they are all expecting to pass no matter what now as well. There are some poor teachers out there, but the no 1 problem is shitty parents. If your kid gets a bad grade and your first instinct is to accuse the teacher or school for your kids failure, you're a shitty parent.

Agree with this but I’d add that; people for a long time now (not just kids) have realized there are no consequences for being mediocre and are expecting a pass because how dare you blame me? It’s your fault for not teaching me how to (insert something here) better so, yep, you’re fault not mine obviously. But he shitty patent thing is 100% I am seeing those kids show up to the army in DROVES! The simplest thing is beyond 99% of them because they were never taught. Pushing a lawnmower, driving a car, managing finances, keeping their room clean, studying for a skill test or promotion. Nope I’ll just play video games. The bad part in the army is we have become so touchy freely we can’t punish them and, once again, no consequences equals no better performance to achieve a positive outcome. They know as long as they don’t fuck up big time (drugs, DUI, kill somebody) they will skate by. It’s really quite a scary perspective when you step back and look at it big picture.

 

[WARRIORWELDING]

Agree with this but I’d add that; people for a long time now (not just kids) have realized there are no consequences for being mediocre and are expecting a pass because how dare you blame me? It’s your fault for not teaching me how to (insert something here) better so, yep, you’re fault not mine obviously. But he shitty patent thing is 100% I am seeing those kids show up to the army in DROVES! The simplest thing is beyond 99% of them because they were never taught. Pushing a lawnmower, driving a car, managing finances, keeping their room clean, studying for a skill test or promotion. Nope I’ll just play video games. The bad part in the army is we have become so touchy freely we can’t punish them and, once again, no consequences equals no better performance to achieve a positive outcome. They know as long as they don’t fuck up big time (drugs, DUI, kill somebody) they will skate by. It’s really quite a scary perspective when you step back and look at it big picture.

yes..... a whole population is fuuuuuuggged. The good ol USA is in for a very rough path in about 20 years or less. I say this not as a doomsday profit but the inevitable. 20 somethings are the new teens in reference to maturity and skill. The scale slides. My greatest hope is the glimmer I see in some very young parents who are realizing some of what is going on and are starting to say: WTF is going on? In a sense my personal belief is we have had a good 15-20 year decline or shift in a lot of variables and values. It will take twice that long to reap the seeds sewn and then again another couple generations to reset........I do not see it happening. Our Country will not be the same in 40 years. Globally we will slide or become engulfed. Our numbers of immigration, loss of leadership, and the warped new generation will be the America we understood and grew up in, undoing.



Well that was depressing.

 

[skyhighZJ]

yes..... a whole population is fuuuuuuggged. The good ol USA is in for a very rough path in about 20 years or less. I say this not as a doomsday profit but the inevitable. 20 somethings are the new teens in reference to maturity and skill. The scale slides. My greatest hope is the glimmer I see in some very young parents who are realizing some of what is going on and are starting to say: WTF is going on? In a sense my personal belief is we have had a good 15-20 year decline or shift in a lot of variables and values. It will take twice that long to reap the seeds sewn and then again another couple generations to reset........I do not see it happening. Our Country will not be the same in 40 years. Globally we will slide or become engulfed. Our numbers of immigration, loss of leadership, and the warped new generation will be the America we understood and grew up in, undoing.



Well that was depressing.

I guess I could have just made a simple statement not a drawn out one:



-$15/hr minimum wage-


Understanding the ramifications of the mindset demanding such lunacy should explain it all….. should.

 

[83oldyoda4x4]

So about these kids acting out in schools, especially elementary kids. From the teachers i know There has been a huge uptick in acting out since everyone is back in classroom. this has been partially attributed to, too much screen time while at home. Look into how it affects childrens brains... And how they handle emotions.

I'm sure some parents where just like here is an Ipad and a TV, go be quiet while i work from home.

 

[gslander]

Public education =/= private business.

One has a clear product that has monetary value and generates revenue, giving a clear metric of success, while the other does not.
You simply cannot use the type of performance metrics that are used in Private industry for education scenarios and expect it to work out properly

Why not? The output would be educated kids to a certain standard. I get the shitty parent part, but taking that to it's logical conclusion are smart kids solely the result of good parents? If so where's the educator performance in both scenarios?

Not being an ass just driving the discussion and curious to hear thoughts around that.

 

[rcalexander105]

Why not? The output would be educated kids to a certain standard.

If I'm picking up what Dave is putting down it's b/c the correlation to the higher standards would lead to increased revenue (which would, in turn, allow for an increase in incentive pay).

 

[awheelterd]

Why not? The output would be educated kids to a certain standard. I get the shitty parent part, but taking that to it's logical conclusion are smart kids solely the result of good parents? If so where's the educator performance in both scenarios?

Not being an ass just driving the discussion and curious to hear thoughts around that.

Smart kids are 75% the product of good parents IMHO.

 

[awheelterd]

yes..... a whole population is fuuuuuuggged. The good ol USA is in for a very rough path in about 20 years or less. I say this not as a doomsday profit but the inevitable. 20 somethings are the new teens in reference to maturity and skill. The scale slides. My greatest hope is the glimmer I see in some very young parents who are realizing some of what is going on and are starting to say: WTF is going on? In a sense my personal belief is we have had a good 15-20 year decline or shift in a lot of variables and values. It will take twice that long to reap the seeds sewn and then again another couple generations to reset........I do not see it happening. Our Country will not be the same in 40 years. Globally we will slide or become engulfed. Our numbers of immigration, loss of leadership, and the warped new generation will be the America we understood and grew up in, undoing.



Well that was depressing.

They made a movie about it. Idiocracy

 

[83oldyoda4x4]

Smart kids are 75% the product of good parents IMHO.

Not so much smart but productive kids. I can't tell you how many "projects" i put off until last minute, if i didn't have parents willing to drive me to the staples or walmart whatever to get materials to put stuff together. It just wouldn't have gotten done.

 

[RatLabGuy]

Why not? The output would be educated kids to a certain standard. I get the shitty parent part, but taking that to it's logical conclusion are smart kids solely the result of good parents? If so where's the educator performance in both scenarios?

Not being an ass just driving the discussion and curious to hear thoughts around that.

Because it just isn't that clear and simple.
What exactly is the quantitative metric of success in education? Is it higher test scores? No, b/c it could be that the scores are just inflated by the tests being easy or the kids being smart to begin with. Is it an increase in score year over year? What about the kid who learns a lot but has test anxiety and just fails the test? Or the fact that you then have teachers only "teaching to the test" and not the actual broad basis needed? Is it the income bracket of graduates, becauset hey got "better" jobs? Well thsts dumb too bc there's lots of great, important, noble carreers that don't pay so well.

There are a hundred ways you could try and measure successful education and 101 ways that those ways could be wrong or debated. Its subjective by nature.
Most if not all of us would agree that many of the real success stories in education and the influence of a really good teacher on a particular students often aren't even evident immediately but come up years later when they've hadt he apprpriate real life trials.

In business, you make a thing or sell a thing and make money. We know your business is working because you have made more money or made more things. Easy to quantify success. I know my salesman did his job bc he sold more stuff.
Plus by definition a good business is self-sufficient.

But when the goal of the enterprise is not to make an easiy quantifiable thing, you can't use the same type of attitude or metrics to measure success. Education - public or private - education will never be self sufficient, because it doesn't generate its own revenue to support the enterprise.