Destruction of your own land

[UTfball68]

i get what your saying though with the character reference.
It would be like me going down a powerline trail. after all the bitching i do at people who do this, it would make me seem like a hypocrit.
in your situation, if one follows the tread lightly motto on trail systems and parks, then why does that not carry over into his personal life and on his personal land?
i knew this was going to be a fun topic. thats why i said it was interesting in my first reply =)

Exactly what I'm getting at

I agree with most other people on here that it is your land so do as you please as long as you are obeying the law.

That said, I know there are plenty of you on this board that believe just because something is a law, doesn't make it right or logical.

I'll play around on my land as if I own it or something, though to an extent I understand the responsibility thing. I clean up any spills if I break, and I try to keep the creek bank from washing out where the trails run near it, we also only cross the water where there is a relatively solid bottom. But, I will clear what I please when I please, to do with as I please. Luckily I have no neighbors to piss off within a few miles....

Yeah...that's basically what I'm talking about. I'm not saying I believe not to use your land, because I use my own.

what do millions and millions of people do everyday driving up and down the same road? tear it up. eventually having to repave it etc........... any difference?

So we're going with the 'they're doing it, so I'm gonna do it too'? That doesn't fly with me, especially considering all the folks on here that bash the guys that trash the public trails and then go clean up after them. If they're trashing the trails, why aren't you?

I was accused of speaking out of both sides of my mouth, I didn't see my point of preaching preservation/conservation and responsibility ever change. Nor did I see a post where I said wheel, but close up the land. So if anyone can point out my waffling, I'd appreciate it.






Alright...I think the point I was trying to make was slightly looked over and poorly explained by me. I'm not trying to sway anyone's opinion, but lemme try to explain again.


Your land is an asset like anything else. Can anyone name any other thing, asset or tangible item that they intentionally try to destroy? I don't see anyone trying to burn their house down. I don't see anyone taking a hammer to the body of their brand new car. Hell, I also don't know very many guys that intentionally try to tear up and destroy their trail rigs. Those are all your things as well, but common sense and responsibility says not to destroy them. So why is land any different?


As Red stated earlier, there seems to be a slight hypocrisy. On one hand, we have guys preaching trail clean-ups and flaming guys for going over young growth and generally acting like an ass on the trail, but the same mentality doesn't seem to make it home. That confuses me. Personally, I try to be the same person and hold the same ideals regardless of where I'm at. I think it's completely hypocritical to hop on this site and preach until you're blue in the face and flame even harder and put on a good show for everybody, but when no one is watching, who cares. As I said above, it's your land, do what you want with it, but the UNnecessary destruction, I think is a waste. Maybe it's the avid outdoorsman in me, but I've always believed in leaving a place better than I found it, regardless of it being public or private land...doesn't matter if it's my 40 acres of hunting property or a little 12"x3" strip of grass beside a sidewalk. I put land destruction on the same level as poaching...doesn't matter if it's your land or public land, poaching is poaching and it's still wrong.


That said, I'm not saying private land should be regulated and I'm not saying you shouldn't do what you want on your own land. You wanna clear cut it, go ahead, you wanna build a rock garden, go ahead, you wanna build a mud pit who am I to judge. But I think this is where my opinion gets hazy and a little abstract, making it difficult to understand. But I believe we all are adults here with common sense that should understand 90% of the time what land destruction is. And if you don't, if you'd come here and bitch about what some jackass did out at URE or flame somebody for posting what they did...I think you get the point.


With that dissertation typed out...opinions are like assholes. I just thought the topic would spur interesting discussion, I had no idea it would be such a foreign and radical opinion, especially with all the public land conservation this site seems to be a part of. I'd also like to say, I adhere to 'Don't Tread on Me', but I don't see why 'Tread Lightly' can't be implemented in to that. I just thought the survival of the fourwheeling sport needed support from all fronts, and not just when other people are looking. So do with that as you may.

 

[6BangBronk]

This sounds like a GARAGE issue to me but I'll chime in. I'm married right. My wife wants to see a nice front yard. She can care less what the back yard looks like or over at my shop or elsewhere. I consider the same being my neighbors. It's degrading to them to have a ripped up mud hole right next door. Come time to sell, they are the ones hurting.
I can see doing as you please with your land but I also see keeping the adjoining views appealing to the neighbors. That's what they make landscaping and privacy fences for. Of course it's your right to hang toilet seats in your trees, but please don't do it in clear sight of me and my wife's front (beautiful to us) lawn. It's a mere term called "respect".
Besides that, if you got 100 acres and want to tear it up, have at it. Just try to be considerate of the appearances from neighbors and street scapes so that the whole concensus from everybody that drives by isn't harped on how bad 4 wheeling is to the environment. We're the 2% fighting for public trails. Don't ruin it for us by pushing away the other 98% when it comes to a public vote for the said trails.
But as for destruction of property itself, believe me, Mother Nature knows how to take care of herself. You ought to see how it looks in Durham now that Duke Power stepped up the rules on their tree growth around power lines. They have a machine that is like a steam roller that tears the hell out of some trees. And they ran that rascal up and down on both sides of every transmission line. From my shop, I can now about see the town of Butner 25 miles North along the power line. If a line goes from one property to another (transmission), they now mow it down roughly 25' on each side. And then trim up to 40' if that's what it takes to not have to worry about the power line.
As for tree hugging, you got to remember that trees are so abundant right now, you can't hardly pay for someone to come strip the lumber anymore. It cost more to cut and make boards than the money you'd make to sell it. But also remember that there's less trees all the time across the world. The rain forest can not be denied that it is shrinking at a record pace. It may take another 200 years around here but lumber will be a market one day. North Carolina had hundreds of thousands of old growth pine trees up to 4' in diameter as soon as 100 years ago that simply do not exist anymore.

 

[Fart]

Tear up what you want. Don't dump oil or other chemicals.
The land heals itself faster than people want to believe.

 

[UTfball68]

Tear up what you want. Don't dump oil or other chemicals.
The land heals itself faster than people want to believe.

And what scientific proof do you have backing that claim up? I'll agree it's a self healer, but how long does it take and how much traffic does it take before it can't sustain itself.


And the fact of the matter is, the people closing down our sport isn't worried whether or not the environment is self-correcting or self-healing, they're worried about the here and now and what the perception of offroaders do to the environment.


To be quite honest, when I've had a target on my back, I've never been one to piss in the face of someone that can shut me down.


I really am quite surprised by the reactions here, considering the efforts put forth on this to squelch land abuse on public land. Maybe the guys that actually do that aren't posting up in this thread. So is it safe to say we have a site full of guys that put on a show on the trails and on this site, but don't give a damn when no one is watching?

 

[BIGWOODY]

I bought it and keep paying higher and higher taxes for the right to own it. I'll do WTF I want to with it as long as it isn't pissing my neighbors off.

I got a couple of nice hill climbs and a little trail all through the woods on my property.

 

[UTfball68]

I think you guys are missing the point. I'm not saying not to use the land, not build trails, not build mud pits, etc. What I'm saying is, the very stuff you guys flame for and get pissed about on public land, why does that not transfer to private land? And if it doesn't, why do you have a right to complain on public land if you, yourself, aren't even holding yourself to the same standards at all times ?

 

[JeepKrawlr]

Wow, so many things could be said about this topic, so many opinions, personal beliefs, etc.
I, for one, believe that if you own the land you shouldn't have anyone else telling you what or what not to do. If you, as the owner of the land, want to carve a new trail, carve a new trail then. If you want a mud pit, make a mud pit. I believe that it's the owners right to do as they wish as long as it doesn't interfere with neighbors.
But I also believe that trashing your property, such as littering, not cleaning spills etc, should not be tolerated. Keep the land clean and pleasing to look at for others.
My family's house sits on a .78 acre lot. I'm sure if I lived in a rural area with 10+ acres, I'd have plenty of trails and mud pits spread through the land. Like I said, as the owner of the land, you preserve the right to do what you want with that land. People shouldn't be hated for cutting down trees and making trails on their own land, but keep it clean.
And if your wheeling on someone elses property, respect the fact that it's not your property. I can say a lot about this since I wheel on some land that I have permission to be on. I take responsibility for the land when I'm on it and clean up after myself.

 

[UTfball68]

^^^Another one that missed the point. Nowhere did I say anything about not having those things.

I think you guys are missing the point. I'm not saying not to use the land, not build trails, not build mud pits, etc. What I'm saying is, the very stuff you guys flame for and get pissed about on public land, why does that not transfer to private land? And if it doesn't, why do you have a right to complain on public land if you, yourself, aren't even holding yourself to the same standards at all times ?

If I could simply get an answer to these questions, I'd be more than willing to shut up. But to be a hypocrite and say 'it's my land' in one breath and then jump on board with a trail clean up or to flame someone for driving up a tree and checking flex doesn't jive with me.



BTW...this can be moved to where ever it needs to be. I thought this was gonna be a good thread to display about land use, but kinda went the opposite direction.

 

[McCracken]

^^^Another one that missed the point. Nowhere did I say anything about not having those things.
If I could simply get an answer to these questions, I'd be more than willing to shut up. But to be a hypocrite and say 'it's my land' in one breath and then jump on board with a trail clean up or to flame someone for driving up a tree and checking flex doesn't jive with me.

I get what you're saying and I agree. However, most folks don't like others telling them what they should and shouldn't do on their land. I understand that completely. I pay the taxes and I make the payments so I should be able to do what I want.

On the other hand, just because you can doesn't mean you should. This point has already been made. What I'll throw in is people's perception of what they can do and to what extent varies. Are you going to dump nuclear waste on your land? probably not but if I want a mud bog out back there's nothing wrong with it. It's just dirt. What you're saying is it's OK to do whatever you want as long as it passes your moral test aka doesn't destroy the land (in your opinion).

The last point I'll make is that I've never heard of a local landowner getting hassled by greenies about 4-wheeling. Their neighbors, yes but making a campaign off of Joe Public's 40-acres, no.

 

[mbalbritton]

Unnecessary destruction is a relative term. How much is unnecessary? How much is necessary?

 

[drkelly]

I think you guys are missing the point. I'm not saying not to use the land, not build trails, not build mud pits, etc. What I'm saying is, the very stuff you guys flame for and get pissed about on public land, why does that not transfer to private land? And if it doesn't, why do you have a right to complain on public land if you, yourself, aren't even holding yourself to the same standards at all times ?

It is different. We all have to follow the rules when wheeling at public places. If too many idiots don't follow the rules, then we are threatened with losing those public places to wheel. There are no rules about 'staying on the trail' or 'do not climb trees' or 'do not drive through the creek' in my back yard. I do all of that stuff in my back yard, but I don't do it at places like URE. I don't throw trash out of my vehicle at URE or any other public wheeling places either, and I don't throw trash out on my own trails. When at places like URE, I follow the rules and stay on the trails. When in my back yard, I'll drive over small trees and cut them down if they are in my way and I want to make a new short cut or trail. I'll drive down the creek and then climb out of the 5 foot high bank if I want to. Nobody is going to complain because if anyone can see me doing it, they are tresspassing on my land.

The land heals itself faster than people want to believe.

x2

It is amazing how quickly my trails become overgrown. About twice a year I have to take my chain saw and lopping shears down my trails to keep them open. The forest wants to reclaim that open space at an alarming rate. Tree branches grow out into the trail to capture sunlight. Dead trees fall over blocking the trails. New seeds sprout in the middle of the trail and grow rapidly due to free space and sun. Right now I've got five trees down across my trails. Most of them fell during thunderstorms over the summer. One of them is a fawking 3' diameter oak tree that I am not looking forward to cleaning up, but it is blocking my best hill climb.

 

[McCracken]

Right now I've got five trees down across my trails. Most of them fell during thunderstorms over the summer. One of them is a fawking 3' diameter oak tree that I am not looking forward to cleaning up, but it is blocking my best hill climb.

If I can have the wood, I'll clear them out

 

[UTfball68]

I get what you're saying and I agree. However, most folks don't like others telling them what they should and shouldn't do on their land. I understand that completely. I pay the taxes and I make the payments so I should be able to do what I want.
On the other hand, just because you can doesn't mean you should. This point has already been made. What I'll throw in is people's perception of what they can do and to what extent varies. Are you going to dump nuclear waste on your land? probably not but if I want a mud bog out back there's nothing wrong with it. It's just dirt. What you're saying is it's OK to do whatever you want as long as it passes your moral test aka doesn't destroy the land (in your opinion).
The last point I'll make is that I've never heard of a local landowner getting hassled by greenies about 4-wheeling. Their neighbors, yes but making a campaign off of Joe Public's 40-acres, no.

I agree 100% with that. But per your last point, if it's pushed hard enough by neighbors, what do you think the next step is? Legals problems? Ordinances implemented? I dunno.

Unnecessary destruction is a relative term. How much is unnecessary? How much is necessary?

And I guess this sums up the sticky grey area of my thought process. Personally, for me, if I don't do it out in public, typically I won't do it with my own stuff. And I realize that what I deem unnecessary is completely different from what someone else deems unnecessary. But we all know as 'wheelers, there's a target on our backs, so common sense should be of the utmost importance. With the way the world is run today, it's stupid to think that there are only eyes on you at public places. As I've said before, I don't go to the gun range and preach responsibility and safety, then go home and play Russian Roulette. I don't go to work and preach GAAP and SOx, then go home and practice tax fraud. Those are all the time things, I don't change my ideals and beliefs just because no one is watching me any longer, and I try to apply the same thing to fourwheeling. Maybe that comes on too strong and rubs people the wrong way, and maybe I'm all on my own on this thought process, but I thought it would be an interesting discussion which I appear to be in the vast minority.

 

[6BangBronk]

I still don't quite get this thread yet? I feel like it's comparing apples and oranges... But I think it boils down to why we have young guys dieing every single day... For the freedom we enjoy every minute in the US. Free to do what we want to do but in a respectable manner. Free to buy some private land and wheel as we please. If I had too many to drink and had a buddy along the back of MY land and I had an old tree I wanted to climb the side of and act foolish. You damn well better believe I'm going to. Might flip over in the process? But it's what I wanted to do on MY land at the time.
On the other hand, on public lands, you don't act like a wild heithern. You act like you got some sense and just MAYBE those public lands will offer wheeling for years to come. How many new public lands you hear about opening up around here? I don't know about you but my closest legal wheeling spot is over 2 hours away besides my own back yard. And how many closures do you hear about? Open your eyes man, we're fighting a battle to wheel publicly. Just to drive a 4wd up a trail publicly might be a thing of the past 10 years from now. There's 2 seperate sets of rules to follow between behind closed doors and out in the public. You dance naked out in YOUR woods. You walk the thin line in the public? It's the manners we're tault as kids. Give respect and you might be respected in return. Wheel respectively on public lands. Raise your hell at home? It's not a double standard at all. Just two totally different events your trying to compare? Drinking at home in my own back yard and drinking in public. Guns at home and in public. Hell, sex in the public and sex at home. Totally different set of rules man...

 

[BIGWOODY]

Hey fellas...I was just wondering how you guys felt on a topic. The topic being 'wheeling on your own property or having permission to wheel on someone's property. The dilemma being, trashing vegetation, bush hogging through the environment, etc. Basically just tearing up the land.
.

Yes I must not understand....What specifically are you talking about doing on this land? Running over vegetation? Bush hoggin? WTF are you talking about that wouldn't be good outside of making a waste dump out of it?

 

[UTfball68]

^^^Very well said. But I guess this is just where I'll have to split ways and accept I'm in the minority. I don't believe in being someone else in public as I am in private. I'll leave it at that.

 

[UTfball68]

Yes I must not understand....What specifically are you talking about doing on this land? Running over vegetation? Bush hoggin? WTF are you talking about that wouldn't be good outside of making a waste dump out of it?

Alright...I've tried clarifying in a few other posts. But what I am talking about is respect and responsibility pertaining to land. I personally believe I should use my land no differently than what is expected and expressed and preached about on this site about public land. It's apparent, I'm probably the only one that feels this way.

 

[jeepinmatt]

I think the difference you are missing is that you have to SHARE public land, so we need to follow the rules, and be considerate of others who will use it. Private land's current use is whatever the landowner wants to do at that moment. If they want to tear all the trees down, till it up, and have 10 wide mud racing, so be it. If they want to repair that "damage" and build a house in the same place, so be it. Then if they want to farm it, so be it. Any of these activities drastically change the landscape. For some reason it is "ok" to come in and mow down 200 acres of forest, and put 1000 cheap houses on it 6ft apart and cover 1/3 of it in pavement and concrete. But you are a "bad guy" or a nuisance if you have a rutted out 4x4 trail going into the woods. Grading is socially acceptable, but offroading is not?

 

[XJfreakHO]

It is different. We all have to follow the rules when wheeling at public places. If too many idiots don't follow the rules, then we are threatened with losing those public places to wheel. There are no rules about 'staying on the trail' or 'do not climb trees' or 'do not drive through the creek' in my back yard. I do all of that stuff in my back yard, but I don't do it at places like URE. I don't throw trash out of my vehicle at URE or any other public wheeling places either, and I don't throw trash out on my own trails. When at places like URE, I follow the rules and stay on the trails. When in my back yard, I'll drive over small trees and cut them down if they are in my way and I want to make a new short cut or trail. I'll drive down the creek and then climb out of the 5 foot high bank if I want to. Nobody is going to complain because if anyone can see me doing it, they are tresspassing on my land.

I agree 100% with this... I follow all the rules when I am elsewhere, especially on public land, but if I want to cut down a path in the woods behind my house, and take my jeep through there running over everything in my path, and you have a problem with it, you can guess my response.

As others have said, if I ever won the lottery, I would have a huge amount of land, with plenty of trails, and would let all my friends come wheel on it.

I think the difference you are missing is that you have to SHARE public land, so we need to follow the rules, and be considerate of others who will use it. Private land's current use is whatever the landowner wants to do at that moment. If they want to tear all the trees down, till it up, and have 10 wide mud racing, so be it. If they want to repair that "damage" and build a house in the same place, so be it. Then if they want to farm it, so be it. Any of these activities drastically change the landscape. For some reason it is "ok" to come in and mow down 200 acres of forest, and put 1000 cheap houses on it 6ft apart and cover 1/3 of it in pavement and concrete. But you are a "bad guy" or a nuisance if you have a rutted out 4x4 trail going into the woods. Grading is socially acceptable, but offroading is not?

This too... The old farmhouse my Dad used to rent was in a similar situation, he wanted to buy it, but the owner wouldn't sell it because some millionaire contractor was willing to pay much more just to flatten the place and build a nieborhood.

 

[hadfield4wd]

And what scientific proof do you have backing that claim up? I'll agree it's a self healer, but how long does it take and how much traffic does it take before it can't sustain itself.

I have a buddy with 200 acres. 3 years ago we cut trails through it. We didn't take down any big trees, however we took down several smaller ones. No bigger than 2 1/2" - 3". We wheeled it almost every weekend. Took dirt bikes and quads through. Generally reaked havoc on the trails. But no more than we do at other places. Stayed on the trails etc. Did this for basically 1 summer and every other weekend in the fall and winter. Havent' touched it since.

I was on the property last week for something else and we were walking around it. We literally couldn't figure out the exact route the trails took. It has completely regenerated itself.

All this to say as long as you don't do something against code or property variances or start dumping oil etc I think it's fine.

I think a big misconception of people who wheel private land, which is most of the wheeling I do, is that you have land abuse anarchy and do what you want, where the fact of the matter is the private parks have rules like everybody else and they need to be followed. Pick up garbage, clean up spills etc.

Use is not abuse.

 

[BIGWOODY]

Alright...I've tried clarifying in a few other posts. But what I am talking about is respect and responsibility pertaining to land. I personally believe I should use my land no differently than what is expected and expressed and preached about on this site about public land. It's apparent, I'm probably the only one that feels this way.

It sounds ike you've got a specific case in mind that you're dancing around and not just putting on the table....that's what I'm getting from this.

 

[UTfball68]

All this to say as long as you don't do something against code or property variances or start dumping oil etc I think it's fine.
I think a big misconception of people who wheel private land, which is most of the wheeling I do, is that you have land abuse anarchy and do what you want, where the fact of the matter is the private parks have rules like everybody else and they need to be followed. Pick up garbage, clean up spills etc.
Use is not abuse.

There we go...that's my thought process. I feel as outdoorsmen, we have a responsibility to maintain and preserve the environment and if possible, leave it in better condition than when you found it. I think it's naive to make a distinction between public and private land, somebody somewhere has to assume responsibility. You know, I've always been taught actions speak louder than words, if you want to be a leader out on public land, I think it all stems back home. I'm sorry if I don't buy in to the whole 'it's my land I'll do as I please' or 'other people are doing it, so I will too' mentality, to me, that's a cop out. I'm still just confused on how someone can be a proponent for tread lightly and preservation when pretaining to public land, but not when it comes to private. If you're gonna be an advocate for smart land use, do that at all times, not when it's convenient for you or because you'll get a pat on the back on the forums or out on the trail. I realize there is a difference between public and private land, but I don't see how there can be a distinction in the treatment of the land. Just doesn't make sense to me.


On that note, I realize I'm alone in my thinking, so instead of going round in circles, I'll probably be done posting in this thread.

 

[UTfball68]

It sounds ike you've got a specific case in mind that you're dancing around and not just putting on the table....that's what I'm getting from this.

Not one particular case, I've seen it hundreds of times. You and your buddy are on a private trail, or on his property. He sees a a young growth tree and he goes out of his way to go run it over. He sees a water crossing and he's got a leaky oil/tranny pan or leaky radiator...instead of being considerate of the environment, he continues on his way. He sees a pond with fish and tad poles, and goes out of his way to truck through it. Some of those might be soft examples, but you get what I'm saying.

 

[drkelly]

I'm still just confused on how someone can be a proponent for tread lightly and preservation when pretaining to public land, but not when it comes to private. If you're gonna be an advocate for smart land use, do that at all times, not when it's convenient for you or because you'll get a pat on the back on the forums or out on the trail. I realize there is a difference between public and private land, but I don't see how there can be a distinction in the treatment of the land. Just doesn't make sense to me.
On that note, I realize I'm alone in my thinking, so instead of going round in circles, I'll probably be done posting in this thread.

The ultimate 'Tread Lightly' would have had me not build any trails at all since none of them existed when I bought my property. I was 'off the trail' and not 'treading lightly' as soon as my tires left my lawn and entered the forest behind my house when I first started building my trails. So where is the line drawn? How many miles of trails per acre are OK in your book?

 

[trailhugger]

I've seen plenty of farming, logging or whatever 'trails' grow over in one season to the point of being unrecognizeable... even the logging, which was the most dramatic.

I don't think it's been brought up... but if a creek crosses your property and is part of a watershed, you do have rules to follow... the EPA will potentially tear you a new one. Special habitat? Same thing. Farming? There are people in your business over the fertilizers, pesticides and maybe even the seeds you use... If you're not way out (heck, maybe if you are) or have certain types of neighbors close enough, there may be rules or even zoning ordinances. The simple fact is very little is really yours to do with as you please.

That doesn't answer the question of *how* to treat anything, but I'm just sayin'.