Destruction of your own land

[UTfball68]

The ultimate 'Tread Lightly' would have had me not build any trails at all since none of them existed when I bought my property. So where is the line drawn? How many miles of trails per acre are OK in your book?

Actually, if there weren't any trails at all, there would be no 'treading' and 'tread lightly' wouldn't need to be practiced at all. But here again, I'm not against use, I'm not against trail creation, I'm against abuse and destruction. And your question goes back to the grey area, I dunno what the perfect number is, but I do think a far louder statement would be made by the offroad community by practicing what they preach at all times.

 

[Ron]

Let me try to explain, Ben, what most are saying and I agree with.

I own my house. It is mine. If I choose to take a crap with the door open I will, if you dont like it you are free to leave, no hard feelings no disrespect. If I were in your house, or in a public restroom I would always shut the door...it is respect.

I dont care if 100 people are at my house if I wanna shit with the door open I will.


Get it?

The issue isnt "tearing up the land" It's tearing up someone else's land.

 

[250krawler]

I think the difference you are missing is that you have to SHARE public land, so we need to follow the rules, and be considerate of others who will use it. Private land's current use is whatever the landowner wants to do at that moment. If they want to tear all the trees down, till it up, and have 10 wide mud racing, so be it. If they want to repair that "damage" and build a house in the same place, so be it. Then if they want to farm it, so be it. Any of these activities drastically change the landscape. For some reason it is "ok" to come in and mow down 200 acres of forest, and put 1000 cheap houses on it 6ft apart and cover 1/3 of it in pavement and concrete. But you are a "bad guy" or a nuisance if you have a rutted out 4x4 trail going into the woods. Grading is socially acceptable, but offroading is not?

Winner.

Public land is just that, public we have to be respectful and share it with many other people. People who don't like us very much. That being said you have a point. I own 10 acres that I use/abuse (depending on who you are) frequently but i also let my neighbor build horse trails on it too. I respect him, he respects me.

Granted I live out in the middle of nowhere and there's certain situations where you point has more validity. You have good intentions but this cant be applied as a whole when your talking about private land because everyone's land is different. Some have next door neighbors some have neighbors miles away, and some have neighbors who will come join you in your destruction fest.

 

[houdini]

i've spent 2 of the past 4 weekends "tearing up" my own land. cutting trails, clearning areas for shooting lanes, etc. do i think that is wrong? no.

i can run the gator, ride the the horses, hike the dog, let's my neice rides the horses, let them explore and play on those trails. go shooting with dad and let mom take some nail biting rides in the trail rig on that property.

we also let the local chruch run their "cowboy runs" (older group of church members that go on horseback rides once a month) on that land and all the while...we are cleaning our land and making parts of it more accessable and enjoyable for us and our guest.

it's our land. we'll do with it as we please.

and if you ask me...the land looks better, cleaner, and gets used a hell of a lot more.

pic of dad and i on our land.

View attachment apic90.picturetrail.com_VOL2148_3057962_13326489_391800082.jpg

 

[Green Giant]

We have about tens miles of ATV trails on ours, and last winter I widened the longest so I could do this:

Judging by the tracks that I find, the wildlife don't mind at all. Irresponsible people letting their dogs run loose does more damage than my vehicles.

 

[TPS]

just because others dont share your opinion dosent mean you are being flamed. you are a kid that has been taught things way differently than those that are 20 years or more older than you. you went through the doctored up PC version of school. your view of destroying vegetation and hogging through the enviornment is how many of the members of the wheeling community feed their families. you arent old enough to realize or understand the freedoms that we have lost because of government regulation that read much like some of your post. you dont understand. thats why you didnt know you would get a harshly contrary opinion to yours.

 

[shawn]

I'm against abuse and destruction

Yeah, but what constitutes "abuse" or "destruction".

A lot of the land I hunt on was homesteads and farms as recently as 50 years ago. Aside from the odd chimney or stone wall and the lack of old timber, most folks couldn't tell that it hasn't always looked just like it does now.

"Destruction" of the land implies it's not there anymore to be used. As Kermit said, you're not destroying anything, you're just rearranging the pieces. There's not a lot that you can do that will persist 10 years after you're gone... especially in this part of the country.

 

[shawn]

I think it's naive to make a distinction between public and private land, somebody somewhere has to assume responsibility [...] I realize there is a difference between public and private land, but I don't see how there can be a distinction in the treatment of the land.

Not one particular case, I've seen it hundreds of times. You and your buddy are on a private trail, or on his property. He sees a a young growth tree and he goes out of his way to go run it over. He sees a water crossing and he's got a leaky oil/tranny pan or leaky radiator...instead of being considerate of the environment, he continues on his way. He sees a pond with fish and tad poles, and goes out of his way to truck through it. Some of those might be soft examples, but you get what I'm saying.

You're confusing two separate issues here. Leaking oil or driving through a pond have implications beyond your property line. It's no longer just about what you do on your land, but a question of societal responsibilities and (literal) downstream effects. But running over a sapling on your own land? Are you worried you're going to offend the tree?

It seems like your definition of 'abuse' or how to 'treat' the land is fairly arbitrary. Is it okay to mow over a sapling that's growing in your yard? Is it abuse of the land to till a field? Is cutting timber 'destruction' of the land? What about cutting down a sapling that obscures the view from your tree stand? Do you imagine there's a distinction between potentially productive activities and those done strictly for pleasure or aesthetic reasons?

 

[TPS]

we always "bush hog" before we plow. there is plenty of "thrashing" of vegetation going on there. saplings get cut in this process as well. thats how a field or forrest is prepared to grow a crop. cant very well stop doing that because that is how we get our food. but if doing this with a tractor is ok then what is the difference if a truck is being driven in the field or forrest. my guess is that the court of public opinion that has taught gen x that the truck is destroying the enviornment. that is the difference. the tractor and plow is tearing up much more than the truck ever could but its ok so long as the tractor is being used. thats the whole problem, when people make their opinions based on the ignorance they have been taught to believe by someone that has an agenda and dont want them thinking for themselves.

 

[UTfball68]

The majority of you guys can't seem to differentiate between use and abuse. My concern is abuse, I've stated several times use isn't an issue. If there's a purpose for the bush hogging, instead of simply to run over young growth...fine whatever, but I'm really getting sick of arguing semantics about that. I'm not sure how classification could or should be handled, but I think something should be done, because self policing doesn't seem to be working.


That said, from what everyone has expressed, I'm understanding that really the only difference between public and private land to you guys is the people around you. So the only reason you act the way you do on public trails is out of respect and consideration for your fellow man, yet have complete disregard for the land still. Is that correct? If that is in fact the case, I have to say I'm floored. I figured there would be more of a give and take in this relationship, but it seems like, at least the folks that replied in this thread, are more worried about what they can take from the environment than what they can give back and return. And to be quite honest, if that's the attitude the offroad community is painting of themselves, now I see why there's so much public land being closed down, and I don't blame 'them'.


Now let's flip the scenario. Say you're still on public land, but there are no rules, no regulations and generally no repercussions for your actions and you don't have to worry about land closings. Are you guys still doing trail clean ups? Are you still respecting your fellow man? Or was that respect simply a show so you wouldn't get in 'trouble'?


Now don't get me wrong fellas...I'm about as conservative as you can get, and far from being a leftist greenie, but damn, this thread has been eye opening for me and almost appalling. I like trail riding, mudding, hunting, etc. as much as the next guy...but I classify the majority of that as use, and have firm belief and solid understanding of respecting the land (literally and in it's entirety). I don't go about and volunteer my time just so they don't close down a trail system. I do it because I think it's the right thing to do as an outdoorsmen. And to me, it doesn't matter if it's my land, public land or something on the side of the road, if I can make it better, I'll try my damndest to try and balance out what I take. I guess, really, that's all I have to say in this thread. I've said what I had to say, and saw how the rest of you feel...we simply have differing viewpoints and will have to agree to disagree.


Let the flaming ensue.

 

[Reid]

The issue isnt "tearing up the land" It's tearing up someone else's land.

hmm...thats an interesting point of view.

 

[shawn]

The majority of you guys can't seem to differentiate between use and abuse. My concern is abuse, I've stated several times use isn't an issue.

Then define 'abuse'. Oh, right... you can't, because it's subjective and arbitrary.

That said, from what everyone has expressed, I'm understanding that really the only difference between public and private land to you guys is the people around you. So the only reason you act the way you do on public trails is out of respect and consideration for your fellow man, yet have complete disregard for the land still. Is that correct? If that is in fact the case, I have to say I'm floored.

Pretty sure you made up the rest of this out of whole cloth.

As others have stated repeatedly in this thread, public land is EVERYBODY'S land, so you can't just to WTF ever you want with it. Somehow you've confused that to mean that folks would tear ass all over a public park and chop down trees if they weren't afraid of getting a ticket.

 

[Reid]

Somehow you've confused that to mean that folks would tear ass all over a public park and chop down trees if they weren't afraid of getting a ticket.

lol, ive spent enough time at URE to know that may not be far from the truth.

 

[XJfreakHO]

The majority of you guys can't seem to differentiate between use and abuse. My concern is abuse, I've stated several times use isn't an issue. If there's a purpose for the bush hogging, instead of simply to run over young growth...fine whatever, but I'm really getting sick of arguing semantics about that.
That said, from what everyone has expressed, I'm understanding that really the only difference between public and private land to you guys is the people around you. So the only reason you act the way you do on public trails is out of respect and consideration for your fellow man, yet have complete disregard for the land still. Is that correct? If that is in fact the case, I have to say I'm floored. I figured there would be more of a give and take in this relationship, but it seems like, at least the folks that replied in this thread, are more worried about what they can take from the environment than what they can give back and return. And to be quite honest, if that's the attitude the offroad community is painting of themselves

Judging by the fact that your the only one who is having issues determining use and abuse, I would say your the one who is having problems differentiating the two. You keep repeating the same argument over and over and when someone answers your questions you either mention some gray area, or you overlook that reply and try to act like your shit don't stink. If you really want to discuss this, get your facts, look into that gray area and come back with some answers.

The community is painting themselves as what? People who enjoy 4 wheeling on private land where they aren't bothering anyone else? People who run over the occasional tree? Ive never seen anyone swerve off the trail to take out a small tree, and that sounds like it might be children on atvs or go carts or what not if anything. If I run over a tree at URE, its because I had to get out of someones way and there were no bypasses available. If I run over a tree on my own land that was not in the direct path, chances are there was another reason. Its not like we are all driving through the woods looking to run over young trees like you are making it out to be.

now I see why there's so much public land being closed down, and I don't blame 'them'.

Your asking for trouble there... Not gonna touch this one.

 

[shawn]

Reid, you're not helping.

 

[TPS]

That said, from what everyone has expressed, I'm understanding that really the only difference between public and private land to you guys is the people around you. So the only reason you act the way you do on public trails is out of respect and consideration for your fellow man, yet have complete disregard for the land still. Is that correct?
no thats not correct
Now don't get me wrong fellas...I'm about as conservative as you can get, and far from being a leftist greenie,
you would have an easier time convincing users of this thread that your the president!!
this thread has been eye opening for me and almost appalling.
maybe you started something in an offroad forum you should have started on the green peace forum.

 

[drkelly]

I figured there would be more of a give and take in this relationship, but it seems like, at least the folks that replied in this thread, are more worried about what they can take from the environment than what they can give back and return.

Couldn't be further from the truth. I've spent about $5,000 and a ton of my own sweat planting a variety of trees and bushes in the front of my property over the past 2.5 years. I think I am 'giving back'. My property is like a mullet. Business up front, party in the back, LOL!

 

[TPS]

thats funny^^^^^

 

[UTfball68]

Couldn't be further from the truth. I've spent about $5,000 and a ton of my own sweat planting a variety of trees and bushes in the front of my property over the past 2.5 years. I think I am 'giving back'. My property is like a mullet. Business up front, party in the back, LOL!

Great and that is all I was looking for. I give you kudos for that. But I'd bet you're in the minority. Essentially, that was the whole point of this thread. It wasn't to not use your land, or to dictate how to use your land. Rather, give back what you take and have purpose with what you're doing.


The assumptions I made in my last post were soley based of the retorts I was receiving in this thread.

I was told they could do what they want on their land because cities are clear cutting acreage every day. While true, and I understand that perspective, I've never been one to do something just because everyone else is...instead, I'd rather be independent and make my own decisions, and not have the mob mentality. On top of that, cities clear cutting is typically a result of expansion due to progress. There's nothing I or anyone else in the 4x4 world can do about that.

It was also stated there's mass clear cutting for neighborhoods and the like. Well, populations grow. There's nothing I can do about that either. Only thing that can be done is you either keep your dick in your pants or tell your chick to keep her legs closed and swallow next time. Any volunteers?

Lastly, there were plenty of posts explaining how they clear cut fields and plant this or that. I don't see how that's destruction at all, if anything, it's replenishment. There were also fellas who described cutting shooting lanes or over growth or the like, and tooling around their own little trails. Never once did I ever say not to use your land, and most of those examples sounded like maintenance to me. I find that completely different than just running shit over for the sake of running shit over with no intent of reconciling that action.


Now at this point, I'm sure most of you guys are just assuming I'm some whining bitch, which is fine with me, there are a hand full of guys here that know that to not be the case...but this is just the internet, so I won't put much weight into it. I was simply trying to get some perspective, while having an adult conversation, and to those of you that did...I appreciate it. I also expected some personal shots from the ones that don't have the intellectual capacity to hear new ideas and discuss them, whether they agreed with them or not. If I didn't explain myself well enough, I apologize for that. If you didn't like my opinion, that's fine, we all have them. But to close my stance on things, I'm a firm believer in everything stems back to home. Just like parenting, if you have a brat of child at home, what is to make you think they'll act any differently in public? I respect this land no matter where I am. So I'll continue doing what I'm doing, and you guys can all continue what you're doing. No hard feelings what so ever. And I'll see you guys on the board.

 

[UTfball68]

Reid, you're not helping.

That is what I was talking about. I'm just a commie bastard though, trying to ruin everyone's fun, so what do I know. But it's his land (or URE as the case may be)...I lost, no need for me to say anything more on the topic.

 

[BIGWOODY]

I was told they could do what they want on their land because cities are clear cutting acreage every day. While true, and I understand that perspective, I've never been one to do something just because everyone else is...instead, I'd rather be independent and make my own decisions, and not have the mob mentality. On top of that, cities clear cutting is typically a result of expansion due to progress. There's nothing I or anyone else in the 4x4 world can do about that.
It was also stated there's mass clear cutting for neighborhoods and the like. Well, populations grow. There's nothing I can do about that either. .

Don't buy new construction....

Great and that is all I was looking for. I give you kudos for that. But I'd bet you're in the minority. Essentially, that was the whole point of this thread. It wasn't to not use your land, or to dictate how to use your land. Rather, give back what you take and have purpose with what you're doing.
.

I get the feeling you think the majority of people on here live in a shithole that they drain oil out in the yard and don't take care of their stuff. I live in a 70 year old house, and not some track mansion a developer clear cut a nice patch of woods with dollar signs in his eyes, to creek a bunch of poor bastards in vinyl boxes for acres across the landscape. This may not be what you mean..but this is how you're coming across. I too have spent countless $$$ improving my property and am generally told by neighbors that they are glad I bought the place because we've got it looking great. Like DK's, it's a mullet.

 

[UTfball68]

^^^First of all...kudos to you as well. That's what I like to hear. Secondly, I don't see where someone living in a shithole would have mattered anywhere in this discussion, even if I did feel that way or give off that impression.


Maybe I approached this subject and topic wrong, if I did, that's on me. Maybe the title shoulda been 'What are you doing to improve your land'. I dunno if that woulda received a better reception. But I do know, out on the trail or where ever I am, I see and know guys that will preach to stay on the trail, respect the land, leave the place better than when you got there and overall don't be a jackass...then if no one is looking or on nonpublic land it's complete anarchy and they're riding for the sole purpose of fawking shit up. Sure, that's their prerogative, but to me, that's plain old hypocrisy. Personally, when I first typed out this thread, I thought of all places that would endorse responsible land management and use, regardless of arena, would be the 4x4 crowd. Especially considering how well versed they seem to be in it when it pertains to public land. I dunno if I took the wrong approach, or if I was wrong. That said, I guess I'll just keep my hippie, tree hugging (haha) opinions to myself from now on.

 

[UTfball68]

Judging by the fact that your the only one who is having issues determining use and abuse, I would say your the one who is having problems differentiating the two.

Sure...I got big shoulders, I'll take the blame for not get my point across and giving poor explanations.

You keep repeating the same argument over and over

That's because my argument never changed. I said what I had to say and stuck to my guns.

and when someone answers your questions you either mention some gray area, or you overlook that reply and try to act like your shit don't stink.

I don't really recall anyone flat out answering my questions with logic and reason and being open to discussion...beyond it's my land, I'll do what I want. But I suppose that should be good enough, even though I was hoping for a little more depth than that.

The only grey area I recall was 'how much is too much'...and you guys more than willingly put me in my place letting me know there are no issues at all.

Buddy...you obviously haven't been with me after a trip to Taco Bell, that'll be enough for you to realize my shit does stink.

If you really want to discuss this, get your facts, look into that gray area and come back with some answers.

I did address what I thought the issues were, I dunno if you were too busy waiting to pounce or what, but in just about every single one of my posts, I did address what I thought the issues were. And believe it or not, I'm a big enough man to be able to admit I don't have all the answers. That's why I brought the topic here, I thought maybe someone might feel the same way I do and offer advice or tips.

The community is painting themselves as what? People who enjoy 4 wheeling on private land where they aren't bothering anyone else?

From the responses and retorts that were posted in this thread, it was apparent that when out on public land, the only concern some folks have is for the people, and not the land.

People who run over the occasional tree? Ive never seen anyone swerve off the trail to take out a small tree, and that sounds like it might be children on atvs or go carts or what not if anything.

Just because you haven't seen something happen, doesn't mean it doesn't go on.

Even if it is small children, who do you think teach those small children, where do you think they're learning their tendencies from? Who has the responsibility of teaching them, and where? They've got to be taught by somebody and somewhere...and if they're not mature enough to handle generally accepted rules and regulations, the parent should be responsible enough to realize that and do something about it.

If I run over a tree at URE, its because I had to get out of someones way and there were no bypasses available.

I'll use your line
Your asking for trouble there... Not gonna touch this one

On second thought, maybe I will...now we're up to running over trees on public land. Way to go buddy, you're cool.

If I run over a tree on my own land that was not in the direct path, chances are there was another reason. Its not like we are all driving through the woods looking to run over young trees like you are making it out to be.

I didn't say it was everyone anywhere in this thread. I said it went on, and it's my opinion, that it shouldn't.

Your asking for trouble there... Not gonna touch this one.

And what kinda trouble is that. Trust me, I can handle it.

 

[XJfreakHO]

I feel if you had came about the subject differently you would have gotten more respectful responses. I do not mean to be disrespectful, but I took it about the same way as everyone else. As for the running over a tree at URE, Ive never done it to my knowledge, was speaking it as a for instance... Not intending to be cool surely, just making an example of how that may happen without complete disregard for the enviroment.

Im not wanting to "pounce" I just didn't like the way you came across the first time, after your responses to BigWoody and Dr Kelly I understand what you were meaning, and I agree with that.

Lol I haven't been to Taco Bell with you, but maybe sometime down the road we can make that happen, but I am pretty sure taco bell does that to anyone. I took your argument the wrong way, and reacted poorly, but as most others thought, I thought you were basically calling out anyone who 4 wheeled on there own land, and as big woody said, viewing us as the "lets dump oil in the yard or stream" types.

As for asking for trouble, anytime Ive ever heard mention of the "people who shut down trails" it doesnt end well, so I wasn't wanting to keep pushing that one.

Im sure I didn't hit all the topics there... but there is no real point anymore, I understand your initial statement now.

 

[Ron]

Only thing that can be done is you either keep your dick in your pants or tell your chick to keep her legs closed and swallow next time. Any volunteers?

Totally out of line IMHO for a non-garage thread...

Ok...for a more thoughtful (and less drunk) response than my previous one.

I think you are incredibly arrogant if you truly think you are capable of harming the land. Mother nature is a bitch....after you are dead and gone, in a mere matter on moments she will erase any trace that you ever existed.

Just down the road from my house they relocated the highway some 100 yards to eliminate a deadman's corner. In less than 6 months the road bed is no longer distinguishable from the new road and takes some looking when you walk through it. Grass has broke down and over took the asphalt.

Leave a rut...feel free.....give it a few months and go look for it.

Really define "hurting" the land...
Running over a sapling?
Ok I will bite. Why is that hurting the land? Why does that sapling deserve to live there? Why not another sapling somewhere else? Want to guess what has caused the dramatic increase in deadly wild fires in the last decade and a half? The 3 decade old ban on controlled burns in National Forests and the near elimination of Forestry timber harvesting activities in those same forests.

"Old Growth Forests" sound great, and big tall ancient trees sound like a noble goal, guess what..those forests are virtual nursing homes full of sick old dieing species...there is no young vigorous life when the entire canopy is choked out and all forms of sunlight are blocked from the floor.

In short, I feel the reason you have received the response you did is you have fallen into a popular trap, that is perpetuated by green nazi's. That trap? Contrary to what wilderness activists would have you believe, humans are PART of our Ecosystem, to preclude human intervention and modification to our flora and fauna is not protection, or conservation it is unhealthy modification. You can not have a healthy ecosystem WITHOUT human intervention. Smokey bear had it wrong, NO ONE CAN PREVENT WILDFIRES, only you can postpone them.

No one here is praising dumping oil or chemicals into the ground and destroying the water table, no one is suggesting that reckless massive dumps (and I am not talkin about the kind taken at Taco Bell) are encouraged. But really in a select (private) location what damage is running through some fields? When I was in high school we used to have "mud slings" on the back side of my grandad's farm in a huge pasture....on a rainy weekend you might see 25 trucks out there just throwing mud and cutting donuts...all in the name of fun. Within weeks the grass would be back and all traces of those activities would be gone....nothing was ever hurt. This is what I thought of when I read your thread.....

It really is all about personal choices and values. I HATE the introduction of non-native plant species into a local ecosystem...but I dont tell you not to plant Leyland Cypresses, or roses, or peace lillies or mountain laurel or rhododendron in the piedmont...why? Because it is yourr land to modify as you see fit.

If I choose to raise a little hell on my property that is my right.