Engine will not fire after Inj Pump rebuild?? NEED HELP

BRUISER

BRUISER

silent.. but deadly
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Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Location
Raleigh
Hey all,

Here is what we did to my truck.

Inj pump started leaking so we put engine at top dead center which put woodroff key point at 6 o'clock(down) we then took inj pump off and gave to a local guy to rebuild..which he did and he also put in the 3200 spring

I then checked KDP(killed it - just incase)

then we put cover back on and put inj pump back on..
I also had to put 1 new inj line and 1 bolt we broke on.

All is together and we primed the entire system but when we try to fire it nothing just spin engine but no sign of life...

Here is what we did:
1st we re-bleed the entire system and we have fuel at every line that is to crack.. with good pressure..

2nd we took #1 valve cover off and rotated engine to make sure engine squirt fuel at same time as valves

3rd we rechecked throttle lever index and it is fine..

4th we re-bleed system again

5th we took off oil fill tube to check and make sure we did do everything at Top Dead Center and we are pretty **** cloe atleast by what we could feel and see with shroud/fan etc stil on

6th we hooked up umper battery since we were killing my regular battery

7th we continued to try to crank it even with throttle wide open and still no luck..
nothing not even a glimmer of hope

8th we check fuel cut off switch and it is workin correctly

So from what I am reading there is no way for me to check the timing cause the pump is timed when rebuilt??

SO I am SO lost I just have no idea what to do..

Here are the questions:
1: can a pump be built 180degeers off from when I gave the guy the pump
what I mean by this is when we got pump back the woodruff key is located in same place on pump when we gave it to guy to build it.. so is it possible to have the key in correct locationbut the insides be off ???

2: Please give me all ideas you can think of I really want to get this fixed and I am Just lost ????

answer in case someone asks:
Yes we did take off the pump gear. but we also made sure all the marks were aligned before we took it off and when we put it back on.

so question: worst case the gear is off one tooth...I have read many times were guys adjust there timing buy moving tooth one gear so I still do not understand if mine is off one tooth how it would still not let the engie start???

See pics as to marks we used to make sure we had them in line

also last night when we were still confused we rotated engine till the timing pin went in and we checked and the holes(on inj pump gear) that you use to take the gear off ( 2 little holes on sides of big bolt) were set at 3 and 9 (hope that makes sense) so I honestly do not believe we are out of time..(if we are it is by a little)

This pic is off the crank markings
pic1.gif


and this pic is of the gear markings
pic2.gif
 
Bleed Bleed And Rebleed.If their is the slightest bit of air in the system it wil not fire.Specialy in the injector pump.I had about the same problem and after about 6 hours of bleeding it finaly came to life.
 
Actually, it was found that the woodruf key that locates the gear to the pump shaft had fallen out when the gear was installed. luckily found on the floor and not between gears when it was discovered missing. timing was off just a few degrees, which is enough for un-run.
 
Well I went to shop an tore front end apart and I think I found my problem..

The woodruff key was missing.. It fell out onto cross member when we took timing cover off..

So we 1st checked all the gears and I am very very lucky al lthe teeth are still on gears with no marks or broken teeth..

what we found out was someone has been inside this engine before..
reason you ask??
the woodruff key is the incorrect size.. it is to small so when we put it backin only about 1/16th of it was in gear side and rest was in shaft side.. that is not very much holding it there. so I went to NAPA and found one size width but tall so there is now only 1/16th not covered with the key...

hope that makes sense..

so I did not get it al lback together tonight but I am going to try to get it finished and see if it fires tomorrow night. so if all goes well I wil be driving truck again soon..

I will keep ya updated..

Thanks for all the advise and help
 
oh and tonight I got the entire engine back together and then guess what.. I broke the damn banjo bolt :( .. the same one we broke the first time we reinstalled everything...

hope I can find a 8mm banjo bolt tomorrow so i can try to start it tomorrow night
 
StudNuts said:
You need to quit braking those. I dont have anymore.
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hahhaah you have no idea how pissed i was at myself when that happened.. it was the last bolt to tighten to see if the dang truck would fire and snap.. i about fel lon the floor crying...
 
psst... its called a torque wrench :)

I used to HAVE to use one on the zuke, I kept breaking the tiny/crappy hardware on everything I touched.. that or stick to 1/4" drive :)
 
Seriously Ken.. banjo bolts don't have to be very tight at all.
That does suck though.. I do feel for ya, ya big paw-fisted monkey.. :fuck-you:
 
yager said:
psst... its called a torque wrench :)
I used to HAVE to use one on the zuke, I kept breaking the tiny/crappy hardware on everything I touched.. that or stick to 1/4" drive :)
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well bad news is i could not find torque specs for this bolt

and i literally was just turnign wrench and did nto even feel it start to get tight just liek what happen to john on last bolt.. kinda makes me think banjo bolt is like a one time use and once torque down it looses some strenght
 
MR. GADGET said:
Maybe he just needs to have you do the work for him.......:lol:
Or hold his hand when he does it, :popcorn: sorry forgot about Sat night when you did that :rolleyes:
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well you sure were not muc help.. mr. i think you have gas in your fuel


and then we compare it to yours and it looks and smeels the same


:) heehhe
 
Rich said:
Seriously Ken.. banjo bolts don't have to be very tight at all.
That does suck though.. I do feel for ya, ya big paw-fisted monkey.. :fuck-you:
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well i just order 2 new bolts so if i break one i have an extra :)
 
BRUISER said:
well you sure were not muc help.. mr. i think you have gas in your fuel
and then we compare it to yours and it looks and smeels the same
:) heehhe
Click to expand...

Looked the same but smells like A@@. :flipoff2: Was some difference who knows..coulds have been a pissbomb
Let me know if you need help..
Jon
 
Well I can shocked Diesel Injection of Cary got me the bolt today..

so I will see if the truck can fire up tonight :)
 
All I can say is I am just slam wore out....This is driving me nuts..

Well we got banjo bolt on bleed entire system and truck still will not fire..

short version: I took engine complete back apart and found out that the first woodruff key did do some damage.. it creased the seal on inj pump shaft so some diesel was leaking into timing cover area

so off comes the pump to be sent back to be rebuilt for a 2nd time

but while doing this i was very conserned that the pump timing is off. so i took off bolt that holds the alignment key on and looked inside it.. what i found was you can see the inj pump shaft and if you rotate this there is a black mark on that shaft.

Question: when that black mark is lined up with the hole where should the wood ruff key be facing.. should it be at 6pm ish or not..

mine looks more like when the black mark is lined up with hole it is about 430ish...

this is in association to the truck being set at TDC..

Here are some pics. I hope this helps explain

boltwithmark.jpg


messedseal.jpg
 
Well of course I have tried everything I can think of and everyone else can also..

and since I am leaving for 3 weeks The truck wil stay sitting at my house till I get back..

Oh well I guess that is life
 
Hang on.... so some "local guy" rebuilt the pump, and now it's inop?

Did your guy bench test it? Check pressures, timing, etc?
 
BRUISER said:
The truck wil stay sitting at my house till I get back..
Oh well I guess that is life
Click to expand...

I was hoping you were gonna get it last night... At least now you don't have to worry about it getting stolen while you're gone.

J
 
Well, I dunno... but it sounds like you need to back the fawk up and start over from the beginning.

From what I'm reading, you've got a no-start with an unknown-condition injection pump with fawked up seals and an improperly-sized woodruff key. You're not sure the pump is timed correctly. You think it's bled, but elsewhere Ken was talking about starting it on a single Optima yellow top. IME, the likelihood of getting the fuel system bled on a single battery is between slim and none.

When we replaced the pump in the 6.2, it took two brand-new 1100CA batteries with generous recharging times from a wall charger *plus* a jump from a running vehicle just to have enough battery to crank it until the injector lines were cleared. That truck fires immediately under normal circumstances, but it had to sit there for a damn long time and sputter before it lit the first time.
 
saf-t scissors said:
Well, I dunno... but it sounds like you need to back the fawk up and start over from the beginning.
From what I'm reading, you've got a no-start with an unknown-condition injection pump with fawked up seals and an improperly-sized woodruff key. You're not sure the pump is timed correctly. You think it's bled, but elsewhere Ken was talking about starting it on a single Optima yellow top. IME, the likelihood of getting the fuel system bled on a single battery is between slim and none.
When we replaced the pump in the 6.2, it took two brand-new 1100CA batteries with generous recharging times from a wall charger *plus* a jump from a running vehicle just to have enough battery to crank it until the injector lines were cleared. That truck fires immediately under normal circumstances, but it had to sit there for a damn long time and sputter before it lit the first time.
Click to expand...
We have gone through some batteries, 4 different ones in a night. There is over a gallon of diesel on the floor due to bleeding the system. I have limited diesel experience, but I think the system is bled, its a timing issue at this point.
The woodruff key was a gem from the PO, but thats been addressed. We are not 100% sure if the shaft slipped on the gear when the key was out. Its a tapered shaft and the bolt is torqued to 45 ftlbs, i doubt it moved.
We have found a way to check the timing of the pump, but we have stopped working on it for the time being. I must say this has been one of the more frustrating projects I worked on. On the bright side, Ken and I can get the pump out in about an hour.
 
Engines with a mechanical "lift" pump will have a much harder time priming and over coming the air in the fuel lines. Just because fuel starts moving thru the lines doesn't mean the air has been purged.

Now you have fluid AND air in the line, and the air compresses, then pushes back when you quit cranking, moving fuel backward to an extent.

then you also have to recompress the air, then push it thru the injector, then get enough fuel to atomize to create combustion, all the while keeping engine RPM up so you create enough compression to create heat for the fuel to ignite, AND keep the grid heater/glow plugs hot enough to help create enough heat for initial combustion in a cold engine.

WHEW ! thats a lot of work even for fresh batteries to overcome.

RARELY have I ever had it happen in the first few cranks of an engine after an IP swap.

I've delt with a lot of out of fuel trucks (CAT engines are/can be a PITA)

Especially when you don't have the SST used for priming the engine.
 
saf-t scissors said:
Hang on.... so some "local guy" rebuilt the pump, and now it's inop?

Did your guy bench test it? Check pressures, timing, etc?
Click to expand...

I honestly do ot know if it was Bench Tested or not
 
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