Full hydro steering lock up problems....help

M&M Offroad

M&M Offroad

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2006
Location
mocksville
I have searched for hours today and have not found anyone who encountered this exact problem..I have done quite a few full and assisted hydro setup and have never encountered this problem...

System Back ground. On 3000lb toyota buggy 39.5 iroks on toyota axles... using high stear arms on the rear of the front axle and factory arms on front of the rear axle..(just like factory)

New 2.25 bore 8 inch stroke Psc ram for (front),
New 2 inch bore 8 inch stroke psc ram for (rear stear)
New Psc 7.6 (5) port orbital valve... Swapped from 5 port 9.6 Valve had same Problem involved)
New Howe Resorvoir with filter, and Cooler
New Log splitter valve from Northern hydraulics(open center, works perfect)
All New Proffesionally cut and crimped hydro lines... (dayco)
Trail-gear pump that was working flawlessly with old hydro assist setup.
Each system front and rear are seperate systems with the returns from valves tied in with a T right before it enters the resorvoir.
Using Howe power steering fluid.

The problem is this... the rear stear works flawlessly
The Front stears great(full lock to lock with no problems)with out weight on it.. once you let the buggy down on it tires it will not stear to the left wich is the rod side of the ram. The steering wheel locks up like it is under extreme load....It seams to stear to the right just fine. If you wiggle and force the steering to the left it will fight its way over their... No cavitation or air in the system. This is a brand new system and when i first plumbed it and ran it turned fine for the first couple minute runs... went to load on trailer and no more left turn... been like that ever since .....Steering wheel locks up when turning to left....

things that were tried to alleviate issue.
..The original 2' bore ram has been replaced with a new 2.25 bore one and
..the Orbital has been replaced with a new one...
..switched pressure lines in reverse on the ram we still have bad move ment on the rod side of the ram...

Could it be bypassing for some reason? i am at a loss ... Please help....
I have not been able to put pressure gauge on it to see the output...
 
If it's a load reactive valve, could it cause this since it's an unbalanced setup? I know some of psc's valves are load reactive, and i'm not positive, but I don't know if they would work well with a single ended cylinder.
 
post a sketch of exactly how you have this plumed. I have seen this before but for various reasons on the equipment at work.
 
Damn, you've already done everything I would have suggested to try and isolate the problem...

switching the lines means it's not your orbital, lines, pump, etc..since it originally didn't want to steer left, but with the lines switched, it won't steer to the "right" (still turning the wheels left)

Can you swap the ram front to rear, see if the problem follows?
 
Rich, i would try that but i have replaced ram with another and same problem. I am starting to wonder if the pump crapped out on it... Becouse it seems like a pressure problem... Either pump is low pressure or pressure is being bypassed??? ++
As far as plumbing.. http://www.howeperformance.com/pdfs/rockcrawlrearsteer.pdfit is just like this diagram minus the double ended ram...(psc sold us the single ended with this setup so i don't think it is that.)The only other difference is that we used a 5 port orbital. With witch the front and rear are seperate minus the T that ties the returns into the tank...
 
make sure your pressure,aux & return arn't mixed up
 
If the system works well without a load on it(ie on jackstands) i would think that everything was hooked up correctly... Any one have experience with a 5 port o-valve from Psc? everything is pretty standard except it has the fith port in the middle that if for accessory.... Any ideas ... going crazy...
 
I didn't think low pressure or pump crapped out because you had said the rear works..

Hmm, I had an idea though..

The steering direction that works.. How well? 100%, like it'll push the rig sideways when the tire is against something? Or does it hit "the wall" pretty easily, where it won't turn? Same thing for the rear steer.. how strong is it... (This is my attempt at a redneck pressure test)

I'm sure you know I'm not a big fan of the power beyond orbitals, but I'm sure you had your reasons for running one.
 
good point Rich... that is exactly what i have been thinking.. is that yeah the rear works but i have not put it under a load.... so the pressure of the whole system may be low...enough to do certain things but not enough to over come front rod side pull on the front ram.... the rear is super light.... sending him pressure gauge to check line pressure at the ram... Man i hope is the pump now... it is the only thing in the system that has not been replaced...
 
I had a problem close to that. It ended up being shat in the line. Where I was used Aeroquip fittings and not aeroquip hose, it pilled up the lining on the inside of the line and caused a restriction. Take the lines off and check um. Flush system. Replace filter, and fluids.
 
i would think more into the lines but when the pressure lines were switched it still had a problem on the rod side of the ram no matter what side of the orbital was giving pressure...And they are two separate lines... Chris as far as rams go this is the second brand new ram from psc... they assured me they test rams bofore they leave... anybody esle think this could be pump problems ... honestly it is the only thing in the system that has not been changed... other than , res,and lines....
 
tc pumps

JUst wondering anyone have good suggestions from experience on tc style pumps?
 
I'd start changing lines. Could be the supply to the ram, but I'd bet your restriction is in the return. Also have you tried to disconnect the rear steering valve and cylinder to isolate the front system?

I've seen several hydroboost brake setups act up when using a restrictive single return. The pump quickly out flows the return and causes either the hydrobooster or the power steering to quit.

On your set up since the rear is in line first it will always work, while the front is struggling. You may need to increase the size of the return line and fittings.
 
M&M Offroad said:
The problem is this... the rear stear works flawlessly
The Front stears great(full lock to lock with no problems)with out weight on it.. once you let the buggy down on it tires it will not stear to the left wich is the rod side of the ram. The steering wheel locks up like it is under extreme load....It seams to stear to the right just fine. If you wiggle and force the steering to the left it will fight its way over their... No cavitation or air in the system. This is a brand new system and when i first plumbed it and ran it turned fine for the first couple minute runs... went to load on trailer and no more left turn... been like that ever since .....Steering wheel locks up when turning to left....

things that were tried to alleviate issue.
..The original 2' bore ram has been replaced with a new 2.25 bore one and
..the Orbital has been replaced with a new one...
Click to expand...
I know I know this is crazy "thread revival" LOL, but it came up in my search and I have literally, to the tee, same problem with my steering and I'm beyond frustrated, need ideas please, thank you very much!!
3 Power steering pumps...same thing
Just installed New Orbital yesterday, same thing (warranty company found nothing wrong with old one but gave new one anyways)
2x10 ram only few months old, took apart everything looked new like it should, same problem
Running a big Remote Resi with built in filter right above a Saginaw P style chevy pump designed for remote reservoir..
new lines were made again..same issue
running 2 coolers...added the second...same issue, fluid stays cool even after 1hr or more of idling and turning in the shop messing with it
running a good magnetic inline filter also on the return side (normal 3/8 power steering return hose like I've always used)

yes I'm welded front but yall know me, I've always been welded front and never had this issue. With driver side hub unlocked, turns just fine with weight on the ground, lock in the axle and it stops turning left a little past straight. So turns right just fine, turns left pretty smooth till a few degrees past straight then it stops...or you really gotta force the wheel to turn which then it wants to "screech"
I've been fighting this issue for 3 weeks now and still haven't gotten anywhere no matter how many times I change fluid, change pump, change Orbital.
I know it's not air for sure...last night I manually filled the ram, the lines, the orbital then manually turned the wheels lock to lock till it got stupid hard about 1.5hrs later lol, then cranked it up and still no difference.
Driving it doesn't really help either when locked in, still struggles to turn the last 3inches or so to the left....revving it up doesn't change it when locked in weather standing still or driving it.
ONLY thing I haven't tried is putting a pressure gauge on the pump ( I don't have one, suppose I need to buy one just for this purpose???)
PLEASE note: I've ran this same axact Ram and Orbital on the Mountaineer I built, the ZJ buggy I had and never had issues so I know it's not the "mix/matching parts".
The ONLY difference I can think of is these 40" Boggers are 16.5 wide vs older rigs had either 12.5 or 14 wide tires (42s also),..and possibly the way it's mounted???
ANY and ALL advise is greatly appreciated.
 
oh and yes my axles are "phased" so that can be ruled out.
There's the whole "it's gotta be binding somewhere" thought comes to mind but wouldn't I have noticed it while turning the wheels manually lock to lock for an hour. It felt nice and smooth lock to lock, when it was easy and as it got harder to turn by hand since the system was filling up with fluid, still stayed consistent...idk, I'm really at a loss, I've never encountered this before. It done this with hydro assist/steering box which is why I went full hydro thinking/hoping it would fix the issue but nope, still chasing it.
Thanks guys
 
You mentioned lines are "made". Some hydraulic hoses really restrict flow at the fittings. Dual coolers will do the same
When it's acting up, feel for the hottest part of the system. Line, cooler, etc.
I bet you have a restriction w/o realizing it
 
Jody Treadway said:
You mentioned lines are "made". Some hydraulic hoses really restrict flow at the fittings. Dual coolers will do the same
When it's acting up, feel for the hottest part of the system. Line, cooler, etc.
I bet you have a restriction w/o realizing it
Click to expand...
Well with it running and big resi cap open, there's really good flow in there so I assumed it's not a restriction?! And everywhere I touch the system its always just luke warm
 
Even tried T fitting to direct flow to the back of pump quicker, no change. These are the same amount of 90fittings I've always used also so just hard to believe it's my issue on this setup.
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16672211845474583975538004125423.jpg
 
Bebop said:
Flip the lines around at the ram. See if the issue changes side.
Click to expand...
So this time it'll struggle to the right, but still turning steering wheel to the left correct?
And you mean a 1/2" return from orbital straight to remote reservoir, Right?
 
How about some more pictures of how the ram and tie rod are mounted? And you understand that the 1.125" rod side of your cylinder is going to be putting out roughly 65% of what the piston side is putting out right? This is a large reason for getting rid of the single ended ram... Your pump probably just doesn't have the pressure needed to turn a welded 16.5" wide tire on a heavy rig while sitting still, are you running the factory relief pressure on the pump?
 
braxton357 said:
are you running the factory relief pressure on the pump?
Click to expand...
No got rid of that long ago.

braxton357 said:
Your pump probably just doesn't have the pressure needed to turn a welded 16.5" wide tire on a heavy rig while sitting still,
Click to expand...
This rig isn't as heavy as others I've had, or right at the same in front so can't be the weight..
I'm not doubting its a possible pump issue..but that's what's confusing is others are using chevy P pumps and no pressure issues or lack there of.

braxton357 said:
while sitting still
Click to expand...
I mentioned it does it while driving too just not as bad
 
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