I wanted to make a little mention about something.....

[InfantryYJ]

along with the above strong arm tactics above.. Maul-mart MAKEs moste suppliers operate on 90+days BEFORE they get payment.. So basically they sell products on consignment for the vendors..
So i'd rather pay $1 more for an item at a different store that doesn't support that. There was a time when I could NOT afford to put my $ where my mouth is... I can now so I do.. Maybe I won't always be able to in the future..
edit: good luck finding someone a crawl-mart to assist you in your RE lift kit install.. Better hope they don't MAKE the vendors create a special product for them that 'looks' the same but has a few less features than the closest competitor... Sounds like good business to me.. Check model/product numbers on items when your comparing sale items... Most lack 1-2 features or buttons than the 'same' product at other places.. So this great deal isn't really stretching your dollar, you just bought a lesser product...

Oh, so that Pedigree dog food is a bit different at walmart than kmart? How about that Garmin C330 GPS, I guess that has different features than the ones at Bestbuy or Circuit City You buy your Garmin from Bestbuy at $280, I'll buy mine from walmart.com for $228. As for the lift install, DIY like most of us do anyway And so long as the manufacturer warranty's the product, so what, I can get it replaced directly from the manufacturer.
Some of you people are amazing at how antiwalmart you are

 

[Archdukeferdinand]

And what you just described is business.

This is where you are wrong. What was just described was coercive strongarm tactics that are patently illegal, just very few people have the means to take the w store to task on it.

That's "just capitalism" the way a liquor store robbery is a proper commercial transaction.

There's a difference between best value and lowest price, currently the American way of thinking is rampant consumerism tilted towards the lowest price. Personal savings are the lowest they've been since the depression, but everyone has a cellphone, i-pod, computer, play station, etc...

Just remember that everytime you put your hard earned dollars in someone's hands, you are voting. You are saying "This is what I want to support. These people should take my money and do what they see fit with it."

THAT is just capitalism.

 

[InfantryYJ]

This is where you are wrong. What was just described was coercive strongarm tactics that are patently illegal, just very few people have the means to take the w store to task on it.
That's "just capitalism" the way a liquor store robbery is a proper commercial transaction.
There's a difference between best value and lowest price, currently the American way of thinking is rampant consumerism tilted towards the lowest price. Personal savings are the lowest they've been since the depression, but everyone has a cellphone, i-pod, computer, play station, etc...
Just remember that everytime you put your hard earned dollars in someone's hands, you are voting. You are saying "This is what I want to support. These people should take my money and do what they see fit with it."
THAT is just capitalism.

How do you figure? You've been buying a product from me for a while, I bounce a couple of checks, show up to pay the checks off, and then tell you to either lower your prices or I won't buy your product anymore. Nothing strongarm about it, unethical, yes, maybe.

People really want to whine about something, try finding the damn Hannah Montana tickets for a decent price

 

[Archdukeferdinand]

Oh, so that Pedigree dog food is a bit different at walmart than kmart? How about that Garmin C330 GPS, I guess that has different features than the ones at Bestbuy or Circuit City You buy your Garmin from Bestbuy at $280, I'll buy mine from walmart.com for $228. As for the lift install, DIY like most of us do anyway And so long as the manufacturer warranty's the product, so what, I can get it replaced directly from the manufacturer.
Some of you people are amazing at how antiwalmart you are

I have actually seen a cordless B&D drill that was badged exactly the same at lowe's hardware and WW, same 19.2 v logos on the drill, the packaging was the same save for none of the important specs were on the wally-world box. And the wally world drill came with an extra battery and the wally world combo was like $30 cheaper... I wanted the ft/lbs of torque the drill put out and it wasn't on the box ( the one at lowe's put out something like 300, clearly labeled on the box).

Went home and looked it up, the wally world drill was only available at wal-mart and put out half as much torque as the other drill.

So watch your back, the products you buy there may well be different.

And for the record, I'm not anti WW so much as I am anti people who don't think about their money before they spend it.

 

[Archdukeferdinand]

How do you figure? You've been buying a product from me for a while, I bounce a couple of checks, show up to pay the checks off, and then tell you to either lower your prices or I won't buy your product anymore. Nothing strongarm about it, unethical, yes, maybe.
People really want to whine about something, try finding the damn Hannah Montana tickets for a decent price

It wasn't "lower your prices or I won't keep buying from you."

it was "lower your prices or I won't pay you the money I already owe you."

As was mentioned, wally was sued and lost. Most people don't have deep enough pockets to have money to live off while a couple of years revenue are in question so they take what wally offers.

Using your power to make someone do something that's not good for them and is good for you is the very definition of coercive. Illegal is for the courts to decide, and it sounds like they have.

 

[Rich]

Oh, so that Pedigree dog food is a bit different at walmart than kmart? How about that Garmin C330 GPS, I guess that has different features than the ones at Bestbuy or Circuit City

It's true on MANY , but not all.

I've been tent-shopping, and many of the products available at wallyworld are ONLY available at wal-mart - including the Coleman tents. Reading around online, seems that Coleman skimps on some of the waterproofing, thickness of the material, etc.. on the Wal-mart tents in order to meet their price.

Wound up buying one from Dick's.

 

[Rob]

We went to the new super walmart they just built in Sanford last night, needed a couple of items. (No where else to shop in Sanford).

I'll tell you, I hated that place, I'll never go back, the crowds are huge, and rude. While the store was nice and new, I felt like I had to watch my back.

But if you think it's just Walmart, look at Lowe's, Home Depot, etc. I've been looking at new lawn tractors, check out the John Deere's at Lowe's, then go to a John Deere store. The one's at Lowe's are all plastic. A cheaper version of their high quality tractors.

I avoid Walmart's and Kmart's, simply because I can't stand the places. Lowe's I would, except we don't have another decent hardware store here. I can really tell the difference between the Lowe's in Apex, and the one in Sanford. The one in Apex has better customer service, and more registers open. Why? Home Depot is across the street.

 

[purpleTJchick]

It's true on MANY , but not all.
I've been tent-shopping, and many of the products available at wallyworld are ONLY available at wal-mart - including the Coleman tents. Reading around online, seems that Coleman skimps on some of the waterproofing, thickness of the material, etc.. on the Wal-mart tents in order to meet their price.
Wound up buying one from Dick's.

x2 I noticed that in the past.

One of the contractors that come in my store was telling me about something he found out. He bought a drill at lowes for a decent price... went to wally world and found the exact one much cheaper, he figured he would buy that because it was so cheap and he could use an extra one. Wally world brand lasted 2 weeks, got a replacement, lasted a month.

 

[ol'Jeeps]

Might I suggest...

Take your country back! I saw a post at Pirate 4x4 that a guy stated, "...leave the politics to those in Washington" Gee, that's a REALLY scary thought! It scares me that this attitude exists in this Country!!!

Stop believing the Aristocrats that run our country, with every decision based on their unchecked greed.

Stop allowing the Moral Right to dictate policy in this Country. Mostly they are neither moral nor right

Dont believe "Party" lines. Neither political party in this country is going to help US! The Reps are too busy turning this country into a "Nobles/Serfs" kind of society. The Dems are so busy hunting for support they're courting the "to-far" Left of our society. They both only serve whoever will write the biggest check!

But not US!

BTW...

NAFTA was not the Democrats!
See here...
file:///C:/Documents and Settings/Scott/Desktop/EM371.cfm.htm
then here...
http://www.mediatransparency.org/recipientprofile.php?recipientID=153

The Unions did not destroy this country!
They only kept companies honest. Your jobs and wages declined with the decline of Unions. Once the Unions were quelled, corporate greed could run rampant. And it has been this way, all thru history. All of their shortfalls aside, they were the ONLY voice American workers had.

Fred Thompson? Just what we need...another actor for President...another "spokesman" for the "Rght"...a conservative puppet. I dont think Hillary is the answer, but Fred aint it either!

Next time your bashing France for being some pissant little country. Notice they are the 5th largest industrial nation in the world. A Country approximately 4/5 the size of Texas!

Something that really saddens me and and is good illistration of our "industrial might" is the Airbus 380. (French, I believe). No longer is our proud, US made 747 the largest. Boeing sites all that bullshit about it "not being economically feasible to build aircraft that large...blah blahh blah" What happened to American pride? What happened to the time when being the best was important. (Remember, it wasnt "economically feasible" to go to the moon)

Police state? Billery's fault? Sheesh...I think you need to look up the "Patriot Act" my friend. That was King Goerge II who did that! Remember, one of our Founding Fathers, Benjamin Franklin said,

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security"

Immigration...Unless you're an Native American, YOU are, or are descended from, an Immigrant. Fix the problem...the Companies that hire illegals. Then there is no reason for them to be illegal! They will have to become legal. (And I have no problem with ANY American taxpayer.) Or they will go home! (And at the rate were going, they'll all go home anyway, cuz thats where the jobs will be!)

Jap cars better than American? Gee lets see... "Toyota currently operates 13 vehicle, engine and parts plants in North America...". "In the fall of 2001, Honda will open its 11th North American plant in Lincoln, Alabama...". Hmmm thats American labor. Then what must be the problem with the Detriot Three? (Notice they're not called the "BIG THREE" anymore) Could it be good old American unchecked greed and bumbling management? Could it be in their rush to shove as much money in their pockets as fast as they can, that they have been too busy moving our plants to Mexico, and such. So now "American" cars are built in other countries, buy the same people we only deem capable of doing lawn work and driving drunk in our country?

Stop shopping at Walmart "cuz it's made overseas"? There was a time I only bought my auto parts from NAPA. They were usually a lot more expensive, but they "fit" and they "worked" and they were "made in America"s
Now I shop at Advance Auto Parts and Car Quest, because the parts are all the same, made in all the same places! (And Advance will have a special order for me on a Sunday, which is when I have to fix things cuz thats about the only day Im not workin for someone else!

Stop believing everything the populist media is telling you. Read beyond the fluff and bling of of sensationalist journalism. Re-examine what the term "patriot" means.

I am a Christian. I enlisted, not drafted, USMC. I love my Country. I hate who is running it. I dont give a shit about Gays, or Abortion...God will handle that as He sees fit. (Sheesh...we, as Americans, have much more pressing issues than whether or not Lance wants to marry Bruce!)

I will not profess to know how to fix it. I only know that the way were going has an unhappy ending.

well...enuff rambling for me here!

 

[bronco slim]

As a former Home Depot dept head I helped open the new one here in my town about nine years ago and the "Ivory Tower" in Atlanta's philosphy was to open the store and crush the competitors at all cost even if it means huge losses in profits. They know that when mom and pop buckle under then you will have to buy from them and they will gain what was lost back. Depot would sell some products less than what was paid for them in order to gain customers. Is this business? Sure... Unethical but it goes with the times that we live in. I left the company 3 months later because of my disappointment in them.

 

[Cperry]

Let free market dictate society and all will be well.

Unions are a form of communism, and promote laziness, just b/c your in a union does not make you lazy but i have had personal expierence with some shitty union employees. Most unions are hostile and dangerous. Unions say give me what I want, I say earn what you want with sweat blood and tears. Not whinning and strikes.

Back to free market although i also loath walmart and try not to shop there b/c of the way they strong arm farmers ect.,and the clientel inside. The money one saves at wally can be spent else where in the market. The recalls made on the china toys are going to hurt the companies selling them and therefore either china will change production protocols or the companies selling them will change where and how they are produced.

I believe jap cars are far superior to american made cars which is why american car companies are bankrupt and japaneese car companies are not. No matter where there produced. However it is hard for the americans to compete b/c they are hamstringed my union employees and big pensions, so they cut costs by building bad products. I mean really look at a cavalier next to a corrolla there is no comparison whatsoever. the money saved on repair costs and gas savings can be spent elsewhere.

To answer the question posed I buy cheap sometimes b/c i don't want to go in debt. For example i bought a chineese cordless impact gun same torue rating as the snap on one sold for $350 dollars mine $100 shipped. Guy i used to work with had a snap on we tourqed a dump truck tire until niether could back the nut off they quit at the same time we were going in 50lb increments so they could differ that much. I think my battery weakens slightly faster though. So now i have an extra $250 in my pocket and when the snap on truck shows up i smile, as oppossed to get out my check book and right him that monthly pymt. I don't use a cordless much but when needed its nice to have. All my dialy use tools are snap-on but some shit just does not matter. better to save your money and make your house pymt.

 

[ol'Jeeps]

...Unions are a form of communism, and promote laziness...

What misguided comment. Did you quote that from some Right Wing manifesto?

...However it is hard for the americans to compete b/c they are hamstringed my union employees and big pensions...

Same manifesto? Got news for ya..Honda workers in Marysville, Ohio have about the same pay and benefits as the same UAW workers in Detroit. Same is true of autoworkers in Japan. But look at the Management pay difference.

Pensions a problem? Maybe the automakers shouldn't have made these big promises to the workers they never intended to fulfill, when they offered pensions instead of wages!

You really should study a bit more of what the history of the relationship between the rich and the working class has been. And why Unions even came to be. And then look around around you and see that we are regressing back to those dark ages!

Dont blame "Unions" for ANY of our woes! Unions are nothing more than representatives of working America. They are our only voice and they are what ever their membership makes them. Much like America once was, they are BY, OF and FOR their people. If Unions are lazy, it is because their membership is lazy. If America is lazy, it is because our citizens are lazy. If that is communism, then America is communist!

Rememeber...or maybe its time you learned...the preamble to the Constitution of the United States:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

 

[Rich]

Unions started before there was OSHA and all the other safety agencies to look out for the workers. before unions, the factories could work the workers to death. Unions today don't need to prevent that...

But all they do prevent is them being treated like the rest of america.. lifetime medical? puh-leeze. you didn't serve for 20+ years, 24/7 like a soldier... Friend's father makes over $30 an hour on an assembly line.. yeah, that's not hurting the bottom line.

Oh, and that whole consitiution quote is lame... Union has 27 meanings according to Merriam-webster.. Union is also a type of yarn..

 

[Ron]

Same manifesto? Got news for ya..Honda workers in Marysville, Ohio have about the same pay and benefits as the same UAW workers in Detroit. Same is true of autoworkers in Japan. But look at the Management pay difference.

Your liberal bias is blinding your philosophy.
You are right that individual workers make the same amount, but what you miss is that due to union demands, Detroit employs ~ 8 extra employees per line.

Oh yeah, who pays those union reps....yep so a honda employee makes the same wages as a GM employee then the GM employee has to pay his dues.

The point about management?

Again free market. Tell the damn assembly worker if he doesnt like how much management makes tighten up his act and get promoted. Or better yet go found his own car company.

Absurd you say?

Thats what they told the Dodge bros. also...

Unions had their place and their time.

But not today. Today the combination of affordable auto transportation and the internet globalizing and decentralizing our economy, a company can not abuse their workers but so much. If they do the employee will simply quit and work elsewhere. Once enough workers do, then there is a lack of workforce and management will ahve to adapt.

In the 30s when unions were found mainly for mine workers. There were no other jobs for hundreds of miles, and very little transportation options. Quite simply an employee didnt have a choice. that is not the case today.

There is not an employee on this board who couldnt quit his job tomorrow and find another one some place else.

I dont want or need a socialist welfare.

Thee often misquoted Franklin quote, "those who will sacrifice a little liberty for some security deserve neither and shall lose both" was actually in regards to a socialist economic initiative.

 

[ol'Jeeps]

Re: Your liberal bias is blinding your philosophy

Im just liberal enuff to offend the Very Conservative. I did not make a point of whether or not we should be or have "Union". I made the point that the Unions are not the problem.

And on that point. Yes, I disagree with much of what labor unions have become. Yes, there is still a place in America for a strong labor voice. Especially a voice that speaks to protect American workers jobs. Government agencies that are subject to political winds are not going to protect the American worker if there isnt a Labor voice to police them!

The point about management?

Look it up. You talk about how many extra workers the Union gets? Sheesh, look at the fattened management structures in US companies.
The pay difference? Last I saw it was in the neighborhood of 600% more in the US than Japan, while worker wages were about 1 1/2% more here.

free market.

You said get promoted? We promote everyone? Thats absurd! We will always have and need those that don't live to work but work to live. Nothing wrong with that, but he should still be afforded a descent wage. Yes I expect those who work for me and with me to work hard. Then I can say, "hey we're worth this"

Companies can demand higher prices when thier product is of higher value. So should higher value workers

Again free market.

I agree with a free market economy. But paying 50 cents an hour to produce products in other countries for sale in America while those companies escape taxes and fair trade concepts and labor practices aint "Free Market".

In the 30s when unions were found...

Sorry, but Unions date back to the 18th century I believe.

there is not an employee on this board...

I hope your right. I have found most of the people I have met in the Offroading community are good, capable people. But I will also tell you that the buying power of that wage for those jobs is shrinking. And yes we will always find jobs...I hope, "always"...Those jobs will pay less and less as long as there is no protection from companies moving off to where ever they dont have to pay those wages. I think you'll see our shrinking textile industry is going to bear this out.

that whole consitiution quote is lame...

Shame, cuz if that group of people hadnt banded together in a "Union" to protect themselves against, the "old world ways" we wouldnt have this forum to even debate these things!

 

[Archdukeferdinand]

The point about management?
Again free market. Tell the damn assembly worker if he doesnt like how much management makes tighten up his act and get promoted.

No, there's a legitimate point about "management"

A gross economic comparison of the % disparity between management and labor pay in USA and japan since 1980 shows that the ratio has stayed about the same in japan whereas in the USA it has become wildly different, with the management figure getting to ridiculous heights.

I've heard large CEO severance packages blamed for it, but whatever it is, apply your "free market" thinking globally, and you see the japanese management making less per capita and annihilating the competition in market share, customer satisfaction, etc. Wierd, huh?

 

[Cperry]

Why would i need a union to represent me, i represent myself, and take sole responsibility for my actions and work, if i can't cut it, fire me. If you don't pay me enough or give me good benefits then ill quit and get another job or start my own business. Unions protect the weak. From your left wing manifesto you should have picked up on darwinism survival of the fitest. Management will give the good workers what they deserve b/c they need them to effect their bottom line. Its so simple its alarming. say i run a mechanic shop i have a great mechanic that can fix about anything, has a great additude, works hard, will stay late and finish any job. he has only been with me a year, i would like to keep him, but the union says i can only pay him $24 hour, I have another mechanic that has been there 5 years and is usually smoking by the coffee pot, he makes $30 an hour produces little and usually have comebacks on what he works on. I don't fire him b/c of the arbitration i would have to go through with the union to get rid of him. Ya thats communism right left up down. Unions protect the weak and hinder the performers.

 

[Rob]

Its so simple its alarming. say i run a mechanic shop i have a great mechanic that can fix about anything, has a great additude, works hard, will stay late and finish any job. he has only been with me a year, i would like to keep him, but the union says i can only pay him $24 hour, I have another mechanic that has been there 5 years and is usually smoking by the coffee pot, he makes $30 an hour produces little and usually have comebacks on what he works on. I don't fire him b/c of the arbitration i would have to go through with the union to get rid of him. Ya thats communism right left up down. Unions protect the weak and hinder the performers.

I saw this very thing happen in a UAW plant I worked in for 5 years. I hated the way the union saved jobs of people that didn't want to work and should have been fired. I made good money at this plant, but I went back to school and learned a trade I didn't have to be in a union to do. Also, when my first wife was sick with cancer, couldn't take care of the kids, I went to the union asking if I could be temporary assigned to first shift so I could take care of my kids. They said there was nothing they can do. My manager went to the department head, and he hooked me up, let me work 1st shift, I was able to take care of the kids and my wife up until she passed on.

I needed a union? Yeah, right. Unions raised GM's wages in MI, the cost of living also went up, but no one else's wages went up. Did the unions help the other people in the area? My ex father in law, Mechanic in MI, has nothing good to say about the unions. His buying power went down, everyone else's went up, until the cost of living went up also.

Unions had their place at one time, not any more. Sorry, but after 5 years in a union plant, I was glad to get out of that place. Right now I'm better off then I ever was in a union plant, because of the sacrifice of going back to school and working a 40 hours a week. No union helped me get to where I am now.

 

[InfantryYJ]

Same manifesto? Got news for ya..Honda workers in Marysville, Ohio have about the same pay and benefits as the same UAW workers in Detroit. Same is true of autoworkers in Japan. But look at the Management pay difference.

Japanese auto workers make the same as here???? Really??, it seems that you are mistaken. In the states the average auto worker for Japanese manufacturers make almost $30 less per hour, which is almost $50k less per year. In Japan, the average worker gets roughly $3500 a month. The problem with these unions is that they value their time too much and want higher wages, thus pushing the wage hike on the consumer,....and people wonder why the Japanese vehicles sell so well If autoworkers aren't happy with their wages, get an education and get promoted to the white collar arena, until then, you took the job at the wages advertised, don't like it, leave.

reference 1

reference 2

 

[ol'Jeeps]

auto worker for Japanese manufacturers make almost $30 less per hour,

come again?

reference 1

Guess my figures on Japan are outdated.
Or figured differently! What about the fact they also have in place of those wages, Government funded Health care and pension system. That equates into pretty big chunk of my income!

reference 2

This one is misleading because it reflects company mismanagement of human resources and the costs that the companies incurred while promising their pensions to the workers


Lets reference some more resources...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/02/AR2005120201377_pf.html

And something else to keep in mind here. To put my position in better perspective.
Lets take the term "Union" out and replace it with...ummmm "association"

So, Industry has associations such as NAM, NEMA, SOCMA, PhRMA, NACS, AIMA, to name just a few. Why should it be acceptable for companies, of all sizes and products, to have trade organizations that promote thier product and enable them to work together to improve sales and profitability and it is wrong for workers to have the same type of association?

Yea...every body has a horror story of "...I knew a guy who got screwed by the union" or "the union made me have to do this...". But the Unions have done more for EVRYONE in this country than just autoworkers wages. How many people here in skilled trades? Do you think your paid what your paid, because the Bosses think they just have too much money? Nope its cuz thats what "worker protection associations" has fought for and established that a carpenter or a welder is worth.

Also, my point here isnt just wages. Its protection of American workers jobs and that the American worker should not stand for third world wages and working conditions, while companies greed and profits go unchecked

BTW...earlier post...the guy makin $30 per hour. Good for him. Did it affect the bottom line? Not nearly as much as some deadwood at the top makin $1 mil plus a year. Figure out how many $30 per hour guys we cab get for that $1 mil. how much pension investment earnings we can realize. How much health care can it pay for. (and a mil is a small salary at the top these days!)

 

[ol'Jeeps]

*Whew*

I haven't typed this much since College!

 

[InfantryYJ]

The bottom line, that guy in America working for what you consider third world wages, while the bosses profit, ACCEPTED that job working for what you consider third world wages, if he doesn't like it, he needs to bust his and either get an education to start working in management, or work his ass off to work up the damn ladder.

No different than the waiter that bitches because I don't leave a tip,....hey waiter, you chose to take the job that pays less than minimum wage, don't EXPECT me to supplement your income

It irks the crap outta me when people work for a company, knowing the wages when they were hired, then demanding higher wages or striking,....bring back someone like Reagan I say, and let ATC's strike again,....fine, you strike, you're fired. Baseball players want to strike, fine, you're fired and banned for life, auto workers want to strike, fine, fired get off the property.

 

[InfantryYJ]

come again?
reference 1
Guess my figures on Japan are outdated.
Or figured differently! What about the fact they also have in place of those wages, Government funded Health care and pension system. That equates into pretty big chunk of my income!

Move to Japan, become a citizen and enjoy life, but I guarantee, you won't once you see the prices of products over there. On my salary, there would be no way that I could have lived on the economy at the current lifestyle that I am at. Oh, and when you buy a house over there, you are taking out a 3rd and 4th GENERATION loan, not a 15 or 30 year loan, your children's children will be paying for the house that YOU bought
I don't see where it's the governments responsibility to provide your health care and I really don't see where it's the governments responsibility to provide a pension. You want that, get into a job that provides it, or assist's in providing it.

reference 2
This one is misleading because it reflects company mismanagement of human resources and the costs that the companies incurred while promising their pensions to the workers
Lets reference some more resources...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/02/AR2005120201377_pf.html
And something else to keep in mind here. To put my position in better perspective.
Lets take the term "Union" out and replace it with...ummmm "association"
So, Industry has associations such as NAM, NEMA, SOCMA, PhRMA, NACS, AIMA, to name just a few. Why should it be acceptable for companies, of all sizes and products, to have trade organizations that promote thier product and enable them to work together to improve sales and profitability and it is wrong for workers to have the same type of association?

Nobody says you can't have your precious little association, but don't "lean on" those that don't want to belong to it, don't "force" new workers to put into it and don't strongarm company's that don't want union workers. You can have your organization, pay your dues and let your dues cover the shortfall's that the company you're working for doesn't provide.

Yea...every body has a horror story of "...I knew a guy who got screwed by the union" or "the union made me have to do this...". But the Unions have done more for EVRYONE in this country than just autoworkers wages. How many people here in skilled trades? Do you think your paid what your paid, because the Bosses think they just have too much money? Nope its cuz thats what "worker protection associations" has fought for and established that a carpenter or a welder is worth.
Also, my point here isnt just wages. Its protection of American workers jobs and that the American worker should not stand for third world wages and working conditions, while companies greed and profits go unchecked
BTW...earlier post...the guy makin $30 per hour. Good for him. Did it affect the bottom line? Not nearly as much as some deadwood at the top makin $1 mil plus a year. Figure out how many $30 per hour guys we cab get for that $1 mil. how much pension investment earnings we can realize. How much health care can it pay for. (and a mil is a small salary at the top these days!)

 

[ol'Jeeps]

The bottom line, that guy in America working for what you consider third world wages, while the bosses profit,

Guess what im trying to point out, is, not about the job he accepted. But the jobs that will soon only offer workers "third world wages". Then what? Do we all go to college, (Who pays for that, when we are barely able to make our bills?), and all become management? And who will need us to manage for them. If we are all chiefs, we wont be worth anymore than we are now! (Thats prob why College wages arent any better than union wages. Too many of em!) And if we all are managers who we gonna manage? The immigrants we are trying to throw out of the country?

And where are we gonna work, no matter what they pay, when all the companies are allowed to go offshore to escape taxes and wages?

Damn..were back to Walmart!

The "go to college and get ahead attitude" doesnt wash! There will always be, and need to be, just plain ole workers in the world!

 

[ol'Jeeps]

Move to Japan, become a citizen...

Good answer..."MERICA...LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT". But dont try to fix it. Just do what yer told

when you buy a house over there...

Yea..nothing like the "magic financing" in this Country that has resulted in record foreclosures here of late!

I don't see where it's the governments responsibility to provide your health care and I really don't see where it's the governments responsibility to provide a pension.

Your right. I agree! So pay me enuff to do it without them! And as long as we are getting the government out of our lives, how about that same government stop providing ways for companies to avoid paying its share in this "Free Market".

Nobody says you can't have your precious little association, but don't "lean on" those that don't want to belong to it, don't "force" new workers to put into it and don't strongarm company's that don't want union workers. You can have your organization, pay your dues and let your dues cover the shortfall's that the company you're working for doesn't provide.

I am not a Union employee, nor is my industry Union. But I have been Union. UAW Aircraft.

I agree with about all of what you are saying in this section! And you are absolutley right about foul US Union tactics and practices. I have never accepted protection of lazy nonproductive workers. (But really that was a pretty small minority) Unions should not "strong arm and use other tactics" (Which BTW are the same things that companies used to break Unions.) But by the nature of the name, and as in any democracy, what the majority votes, we have to live with.

I m sure traditional Unions are gone or going. But I maintain that we will always need representation as a working nation to protect us from Greed driving jobs going off shore.

Thats just a good system of checks and balances that all free societies need.

We build it here.
We work hard
We are paid a fair US wage.
We create our own retirement programs
We rein in the medical industry so heathcare can become affordable.
Good wages and strong American companies, in America = huge tax base. We all can pay less taxes and get more for the taxes we pay!