I wanted to make a little mention about something.....

[Ron]

ol' Jeeps, I like your passion, but Im am afraid you are showing your age. (either real or thought process)

it is no longer enough to think about work in your community or even your country, my children better be prepared to compete and win on a GLOBAL scale. The internet has torn down mountains and built bridges across continents.

Many jobs now you are competing against people 1000s of miles away. Sure there will always be a need for hands on trades and we all agree on that. But if you choose the security of a hands on trade accept the fact that you have less earning potential (and inherently less risk)than a more volatile commodity driven occupation. Simply put service jobs cant bee exported because they are needed on site local, but many other tech jobs can be managed from anywhere in the world.

These jobs will, for the most part, pay more.
This leaves you with a few options:
1) Change occupations and reap the "reward"
2) Excel at your profession and be the exception. The best mechanics in America make 6 figure incomes.
3) Outwork/Hustle the competition. my best friend made 107k last year as a maintenance mechanic here in CHARLOTTE, how great job, good pay and he logged over 3500 hours last year (Ill save you the math thats nearly 70 hours per week EVERY WEEK) and he didnt need a union.
4) make less and accept it. To do nothing and bitch about it displays a sense of entitlement that quite honestly disgusts me.

This is after all America where everyone can succeed.

I grew up in government housing the son of a single mother who didnt finish high school and a dead beat father. I got my first job at 11 and helped to provide food for my family. Then earned a college degree by taking 21-24 credit hour loads and working 40-50 hours per week. Sorry if I am less than sympathetic to some concerns. At thee end of the day the aggressive and hard working prosper and the weak and lazy dont it is that simple.

 

[ol'Jeeps]

....

This is after all America where everyone can succeed.

I grew up in government housing the son of a single mother who didnt finish high school and a dead beat father. I got my first job at 11 and helped to provide food for my family. Then earned a college degree by taking 21-24 credit hour loads and working 40-50 hours per week. Sorry if I am less than sympathetic to some concerns. At thee end of the day the aggressive and hard working prosper and the weak and lazy dont it is that simple.

May be my age. I realize what you are saying is probably true to a large extent. I have worked very hard and a lot of hours trying to become one of the best in my field. And I earn a descent wage. (And my field cant go overseas...jus wouldnt work...yet! So Im safe, for now. LOL!)

But I still maintain, that hard work wont help if there is no work. And everyone in the world cannot go to college. Thats just a fact of nature. So are you willing to support those when the blue collar jobs are all gone? Im not. Are you willing to bear the tax burden of our roads and infrastructure when you are one of the only descent wage earners left? Im not.

And, lets say your a home builder. Will you survive on building homes when all the descent jobs are overseas? Service sector jobs dont seem to pay much. This "global economy" will have backlashes in every sector here at home. Some call it protectionism, but we need to keep some of this here at home. An example. Remember when the Iraqi war started, the Military couldnt get replacement parts? Could it be that we no longer have the industrial base to gear up to manufacture the parts to support a war, because all the parts manufacturers have moved off shore?

Maybe I try to oversimplify these things. Im not a political or economic major. But every free country in the world does a certain amount to protect the general welfare of it's citizens. And part of this is job protection to some extent.

 

[ol'Jeeps]

This has been most stimulating, but I must hit the rack!

 

[Cperry]

This has been most stimulating, but I must hit the rack!

see your already asleep you show your weakeness you better join a union.

Heres the otherside to your argument to if we are all managers there will be no one to manage. And this is already taking care of itself in the great free market. Which is more rare i guy who can sit at a desk and make spreadsheets do payroll even manage payroll, or a guy who can walk out to an empty lot frame a house, wire the house, plumb the house, ect. ect. This is when you get mr. money bags money back in your pocket these cats can barely charge their electric razor, so when there toilet stops up you stick it to them, when there expensive ferrari breaks down you get it back. Man i love free market. Skilled tradesman make excellent money b/c society has pushed the college thing where kids learn how to drink and fondle loose women. a starting salary out of college is about 30k. I can work as a mechanic at about any shop and if i actaully work you make 45k.

 

[ol'Jeeps]

see your already asleep you show your weakeness you better join a union.

Heres the otherside to your argument to if we are all managers there will be no one to manage. And this is already taking care of itself in the great free market. Which is more rare i guy who can sit at a desk and make spreadsheets do payroll even manage payroll, or a guy who can walk out to an empty lot frame a house, wire the house, plumb the house, ect. ect. This is when you get mr. money bags money back in your pocket these cats can barely charge their electric razor, so when there toilet stops up you stick it to them, when there expensive ferrari breaks down you get it back. Man i love free market. Skilled tradesman make excellent money b/c society has pushed the college thing where kids learn how to drink and fondle loose women. a starting salary out of college is about 30k. I can work as a mechanic at about any shop and if i actaully work you make 45k.

You are hipocrit!

You are the essence of what is the worst element of any Union. The "screw mr money bags" attitude

People like you validate people like me.

You basically state here that you need to screw your customers to make your way in this
"free market". You can't make it honestly.

Your right, though. Real skilled Tradesmen can still make their way honestly. Hope that doesnt change!

 

[InfantryYJ]

Guess what im trying to point out, is, not about the job he accepted. But the jobs that will soon only offer workers "third world wages". Then what? Do we all go to college, (Who pays for that, when we are barely able to make our bills?), and all become management? And who will need us to manage for them. If we are all chiefs, we wont be worth anymore than we are now! (Thats prob why College wages arent any better than union wages. Too many of em!) And if we all are managers who we gonna manage? The immigrants we are trying to throw out of the country?

And where are we gonna work, no matter what they pay, when all the companies are allowed to go offshore to escape taxes and wages?

Damn..were back to Walmart!

The "go to college and get ahead attitude" doesnt wash! There will always be, and need to be, just plain ole workers in the world!

Tell me, WHO is getting "Third World Wages"?,....I'd really like to know.

 

[rattlecanpaint]

Anyone have any idea how long the last major world power lasted before corrupt government brought it down? Think Rome. 300 years before it's mojor world power status changed (And not for the better.) History has shown that no major word power/nation lasted more than 300 years. Quick, how old is the United States?

 

[InfantryYJ]

Good answer..."MERICA...LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT". But dont try to fix it. Just do what yer told

You brought up the comparison, and if you like their wages and benefits, go there and accept them, otherwise, find a job in the states that initially offers those wages and benefits. Don't try to force a company to produce something they never initially offered

Yea..nothing like the "magic financing" in this Country that has resulted in record foreclosures here of late!

Did you miss the part about 3rd and 4th GENERATION loans? Foreclosures only happen because people can't manage what they earn, can't put away enough for a buffer or buy more than they can afford. How about a little personal responsibility? It's not the banks fault you can't make the payment, it's not the company you work for's fault that you can't make the payment and it's not the government's fault that you can't make the payment, it's the person/s that signed the mortgage's fault that they can't make the payment.

Your right. I agree! So pay me enuff to do it without them! And as long as we are getting the government out of our lives, how about that same government stop providing ways for companies to avoid paying its share in this "Free Market".

When you accept a job, you are getting paid "enough", if you don't like what the job is offering, don't accept it. Also, it's not the company's, just as it's not the governments responsibility to take care of you, they offer a package, sometimes with benefits, sometimes without, whether you accept that job and those benefits or lack thereof, is up to you.

 

[InfantryYJ]

Anyone have any idea how long the last major world power lasted before corrupt government brought it down? Think Rome. 300 years before it's mojor world power status changed (And not for the better.) History has shown that no major word power/nation lasted more than 300 years. Quick, how old is the United States?

Hehe, funny, but we didn't become a major world power until after WWII, so, there's plenty of time

 

[rattlecanpaint]

Hehe, funny, but we didn't become a major world power until after WWII, so, there's plenty of time

Rome didn't start out as a world power either...
Don't get me wrong, I hope you're right, but it just seems that with every year things get worse and just when you think they can't get any worse some schmuck comes along and takes the cake. No one with any common sence is in power any more (with the possible exception of Joe Arpio) SP? All the countries leaders are just into lining thier own pockets and the hell with the rest of it.

And it's all Wal-Marts fault!

 

[Ron]

Did you miss the part about 3rd and 4th GENERATION loans? Foreclosures only happen because people can't manage what they earn

[snip]

Also, it's not the company's, just as it's not the governments responsibility to take care of you, they offer a package, sometimes with benefits, sometimes without, whether you accept that job and those benefits or lack thereof, is up to you.

See I agree both of these are simple capitalist principals.
Guess what if everyone refused to pay those outrageous home prices in Japan, they wouldd come down. Or if someone devised a way to build houses and sell for much cheaper they wouldd be in excepinal demand.

Smae goes with healthcare. Im not begrudging doctors, they deserve every penny they make. They work their ass of to get their certification and provide a needed service, however their is no need for thee health administrators of the world to charge $25 for a box of kleenex and all the other autocities (sp?) you read about.

WHen people begin refusing to pay their rates they will come down. Now the question becomees how do you choose where to shop in a life and death emergency....

 

[mbalbritton]

As much as I FREAKIN HATE WALMART (the who's who of Mental Illness as Caver puts it) I'm with Infantry on this. When I go to the local Harris Teeter, Food Lion, or WTF ever and drop $250 in Gorceries and household goods that lasts my family a week, then I go to Wallyworld and drop $175 and it lasts two weeks..... Damn right, I'm going to Capitalize on Capitalism. I don't go to WalMart for certain types of things.. like Furniture.. electronics... music... etc.

but yes, until I can afford to avoid Wal-mart, I will make best use of my dollars earned.

for those that think it's a $1 more per item.... off the top of my head, 20# bg of Dog food and the Grocery store = $18. 44# of the same Pedigree dog food @ wally world $16.

 

[OnlyOneDR]

I have actually seen a cordless B&D drill that was badged exactly the same at lowe's hardware and WW, same 19.2 v logos on the drill, the packaging was the same save for none of the important specs were on the wally-world box. And the wally world drill came with an extra battery and the wally world combo was like $30 cheaper... I wanted the ft/lbs of torque the drill put out and it wasn't on the box ( the one at lowe's put out something like 300, clearly labeled on the box).
Went home and looked it up, the wally world drill was only available at wal-mart and put out half as much torque as the other drill.
So watch your back, the products you buy there may well be different.
And for the record, I'm not anti WW so much as I am anti people who don't think about their money before they spend it.

I can tell you for a FACT that Igloo in Houston, TX has a separate manufacturing line for their "$20 cooler" to supply to Walmart to sell at $18.whatever instead of the $19.99 you would get at Target or other stores. Looks exactly the same but the plastic is slightly thinner and the insulation is not as robust as the slightly more expensive cooler. The consumer thinks they are getting the same thing but they are not, so they lose out. I have (for my job) worked at a few Walmart Distribution centers in the past. Huge warehouses full of boxes shipped in from suppliers, all with "Walmart" printed on the boxes. This stuff is made just for Walmart and like stated above many times is not the same product as found elsewhere.

This is not to say the same thing doesn't happen with other stores or products (try to buy the same John Deere at a Deere dealer instead of at Home Depot, they will laugh at you). My point is that the consumer ultimately loses, we send more money overseas, businesses close, another country becomes a superpower, we run out of oil and natural resources, go into a depression, the world goes to hell, and all our kids have to live with it. All because people are trying to "stretch a buck" now, instead of thinking of the future.

Wow, that was a fun rant! Off the soap box!

 

[ol'Jeeps]

 

[RenegadeT]

I can tell you for a FACT that Igloo in Houston, TX has a separate manufacturing line for their "$20 cooler" to supply to Walmart to sell at $18.whatever instead of the $19.99 you would get at Target or other stores. Looks exactly the same but the plastic is slightly thinner and the insulation is not as robust as the slightly more expensive cooler. The consumer thinks they are getting the same thing but they are not, so they lose out. I have (for my job) worked at a few Walmart Distribution centers in the past. Huge warehouses full of boxes shipped in from suppliers, all with "Walmart" printed on the boxes. This stuff is made just for Walmart and like stated above many times is not the same product as found elsewhere.
This is not to say the same thing doesn't happen with other stores or products (try to buy the same John Deere at a Deere dealer instead of at Home Depot, they will laugh at you). My point is that the consumer ultimately loses, we send more money overseas, businesses close, another country becomes a superpower, we run out of oil and natural resources, go into a depression, the world goes to hell, and all our kids have to live with it. All because people are trying to "stretch a buck" now, instead of thinking of the future.
Wow, that was a fun rant! Off the soap box!

I've heard that same deal with oil filters, same p/n, different quality/quantity materials between the walmart version and the elsewhere version. That's just plain wrong IMHO, its deceptive.

 

[InfantryYJ]

Conspiracy theory's abound

 

[nosnomis]

I have been reading through all of this & feel like I have something to add.

I've had a hard time in my life in feeling very strongly for something because I can always come up with a reason for what the other side is thinking or feeling but I guess that can be a good thing sometimes.

This may be just my babbling but it's just something to think about & add to the discussion.

As far as unions, I understand what they're there to offer but I feel they tend to screw people over also. I started a job at a factory in '98 in the maintenance departement & felt like I started at a good salary for my knowledge. Over the 6 years I worked there my salary went up approx. $5 per hour which was due to performance promotions & cost of living increases, which I thought was pretty good. About 2 years before I left there some of the workers tried to get a union in there. Well, the company decided that if they were going to try to get the union in they would stop bidding on jobs & let the factory close due to not having enough work. The union never made it in & due to not bidding on jobs work got slow. I got very close to being layed off so I decided to look for employment elsewhere.

My point in this is I worked very hard at my job always willing to learn new things, volunteering for overtime & generally putting the work 1st.

On the other hand, I can understand the reason for people trying to get the union in there. We would work for months on end without a day off. Mandatory weekends were normal.

If I am correct in stating this, the minimum wage was designed for a person to work & that be enough to support your family on. Due to inflation & other reasons there is no way you can support your family on minimum wage & have a good living. Now a person or both parents must put in tons of crazy hours to make a good living but, at the expense of children.

Do you think this may be one reason the world has become what it is today? We are always concerned about putting all these hours in at work to make more money. No wonder there is so much chaos going on these days. The parents are not at home raising their children the way they should be.

And I know, if I had a better education I could be a manager & wouldn't have to put all these hours in but as stated before there are only so many manager to worker ration positions out there.

And to add to it. By the work getting slow at our factory it got rid of a lot of full time employees. That was solved by hiring temporary workers which were almost all of the hispanic descent. I know more than a few of them ended up being illegals but more would show up next week. But you can't blame them right, they're just trying to provide a better life to their family by coming here & making more money.

So tell me is this all helping our country or just providing jobs for illegals to work in, because it pays a few dollars less on the hour than what the full time employees were making & no insurance. Hey, they can always go to the emergency room & get seen with no insurance which makes our health coverage that people pay go up even more.

Our country is spiraling out of control & we need to put an end to it all. Something has to be done!

Thanks for listening!

 

[ol'Jeeps]

Anyone have any idea how long the last major world power lasted before corrupt government brought it down? Think Rome. 300 years before it's mojor world power status changed (And not for the better.) History has shown that no major word power/nation lasted more than 300 years. Quick, how old is the United States?

Bad comparison.

Rome was a militaristic, oppressive state in the guise of a democracy, that sent its armies out to invade and destroy any dissent. And they got away with it for so long because there was no mass comunication!

Be careful what you wish for

We've only been a world power since WWII?

And we were 150 years of our government that built its industrial might before that...Lets see how long our "major world power" lasts today.

We talk of global economies and free markets. All these are fancy names that corporations are using for the United States giving away its Industrial strength that made us a world power! How long do you think we will last once our industrial might is gone?

(BTW...Types of govenment that lasted the longest in History...Chinese dynasties lasted THOUSANDS of years!)

Immmm....Baaaaack! LOL!

 

[ol'Jeeps]

...

I assume your Military? NonCom or better? Let try this in terms you understand

Your fightin a war. Goin good for ya. Your troops are well trained, well fed, well equipped. your making good gains on the battlefield. Your troops are well motivated.

Youve gained so mucg territory so fast that you find your self farther aand farther from your supply lines. Equipment supplies start drying up. But you keep going, gaining more ground, pushing yur troops ever harder. Now theyre begining to stave for equipment and worst of all. Food and medical supplies.

What do ya do?

Lets say you do nothing. so, your troopos get killed off one by one. You call up the reserves but one by one your reserve privates and corporals all start going to OCS, because being a private or a corporal doesnt pay well, they dont eat as well, they heard that in the battle the treatment is gettin pretty bad. Soon they all are "Brass". There arent anymore privates and corporals to fight the war! And "Brass dont "fight" wars!!

What ya gonna do? Call the xyz country to fight yer war? Hell, they aint interested in your war! they have thier own.

Oh....and by the way...you just learned there is a huge new enemy on the horizon marching yer way.

The players...

Brass=Corporate Leaders
Privates and corporals=the workers
the war=US industrial might
the huge new enemy= China, et al.

Just tellin me to "go live in Japan" just dont get er done, my friend!

 

[Cperry]

besides management there is another way to make it. You could invent something. I mean look at the "pet rock" what a great idea..... I had an idea once it was the "jump to conclusion mat" and what it was was a mat with different conclusions that you would jump to.

Again if there are no privates to fight the war the chain of supply and demand will rear its head and solve the problem. No supply of privates means high demand, high demand equals high wage. All of sudden everyone wants to be a private again.
A good example is offshore oil workers they make a ton of money b/c the demand is high its dangerous and no one wants to do it.

This is a question? But what does china make that we actually need as a society? It seems to me they make cheap worthless shit that if it stopped all of a sudden really would not effect us. I might have to cut some 2x4's and belt sand them so my kid has some blocks to play with as oppossed to there cheap lead plastic toys.

Whats wrong with the steel market in the united states, we have the resources and the infrastructure. But china can buy are scrap metal ship it across the world melt it down and then ship it back and still manage to make money. I know there metalurgy is poop next ours but still think of how much it must cost to transport it. I would think it has to be unions and pensions that are killing the steel companies but someone can enlighten me.

 

[jeepinmatt]

Last 3 paragraphs are spot on. Ive never understood why everything comes from china, and how it can be so cheap with shipping and all. All the trinkets I can buy from Harbor Freight tools, so much of that stuff I couldn't buy just the materials for the price they sell it for, and their prices includes materials, labor, fabrication, shipping, markup, more shipping, and more markup.

 

[mbalbritton]

Last 3 paragraphs are spot on. Ive never understood why everything comes from china, and how it can be so cheap with shipping and all. All the trinkets I can buy from Harbor Freight tools, so much of that stuff I couldn't buy just the materials for the price they sell it for, and their prices includes materials, labor, fabrication, shipping, markup, more shipping, and more markup.

Get this...

I used to work at a place called Alliance. Point of Sale Display company. From concept to Store floor. We had the Facilities to Design (my job) to Produce, pack out with product and deliver to the Store floor. Before I left, they had begun SHIPPING all materials and product to China, have them assemble and pack out the displays with product, and Ship it back to us for cheaper than we could do it in house. Chew on that one, and tell how? and don't take the easy answer of "Well, it's cheaper." tell me why it's cheaper, and also try and justify that the end product is of lesser quality.

 

[Yay!Gurrr]

Economies of scale..

They pay their workers so little and they don't have the high(er) overhead costs to run a safe work environment. Nor pay health care costs, unemployment costs etc..


That said... What is stopping our steel companies from recycling the steel and make low grade metal. Where did our industrial might go ?

 

[Rich]

Nobody seems to mind their $4 prescription plan though, do they... (Other than people whose meds aren't on that list yet)

 

[RatLabGuy]

Chew on that one, and tell how? and don't take the easy answer of "Well, it's cheaper." tell me why it's cheaper, and also try and justify that the end product is of lesser quality.

90% is difference in the exchange rate, currency value, and the cost of the shipping relative to the local (e.g. china verses US) market.
People often forget that the value of $1 American is very different here, as opposed to $1 American in otehr countries.
In Winston Salem, I can buy a can of coke for $1 at a gas station.
In New York, I can buy 1/2-3/4 of a coke for $1.
In the UK, where 1 pound = $2 and coke is rare, I can buy only 1/3 of a coke at best for $1. Same w/ mainland Europe now that $1 = only .75 Euros.

Meanwhile, take that $1 to china (not HongKong, but rural where the factories are) and you can buy many, many cokes (or similar local drink, Coke brand no so popular and pricy, actualy). The $10 paid for a HarborFreight grinder, when converted to yuan is more than enough for profit.

Re: shipping - remember that it's not like me wrapping up a box and mailing it to you. Thinsg are shipped in HUGE containers with THOUSANDS of other items, pallets and pallets of them. Yep, it's expensive to do that - but take 10-20,000 items and split the cost among them and it comes out to very little per item (maybe 20-50 cents on that $10 tool MAX).

My father work for Sony-Ericson mobile, doing logistics... his group is responsible for figuring out the best/cheapest way to arrange all the misc crap involved in getting phones assembled and to the distributor. Any phone could have parts for m 5-6 countries in it and seen 30,000 miles of total travel by the time it lands in your hand. Why? Because different resources, from labor to raw materials, have differnt costs in different parts of the world, when you addup all those small differences it saves huge... esp when we're talking about quanities of 100,000 to 1 mil products per yesr.

Welcoem to Global Economics 101.