I wanted to make a little mention about something.....

ol'Jeeps said:
I assume your Military? NonCom or better? Let try this in terms you understand
Your fightin a war. Goin good for ya. Your troops are well trained, well fed, well equipped. your making good gains on the battlefield. Your troops are well motivated.
Youve gained so mucg territory so fast that you find your self farther aand farther from your supply lines. Equipment supplies start drying up. But you keep going, gaining more ground, pushing yur troops ever harder. Now theyre begining to stave for equipment and worst of all. Food and medical supplies.
What do ya do?
Lets say you do nothing. so, your troopos get killed off one by one. You call up the reserves but one by one your reserve privates and corporals all start going to OCS, because being a private or a corporal doesnt pay well, they dont eat as well, they heard that in the battle the treatment is gettin pretty bad. Soon they all are "Brass". There arent anymore privates and corporals to fight the war! And "Brass dont "fight" wars!!
What ya gonna do? Call the xyz country to fight yer war? Hell, they aint interested in your war! they have thier own.
Oh....and by the way...you just learned there is a huge new enemy on the horizon marching yer way.
The players...
Brass=Corporate Leaders
Privates and corporals=the workers
the war=US industrial might
the huge new enemy= China, et al.
Just tellin me to "go live in Japan" just dont get er done, my friend!:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Not a comparison because the government can institute the draft and get "the workers" necessary ;)

I've been in over 21 years enlisted, pay has never been an issue with me because I always make "enough", if I didn't feel that I was making "enough", I would have gotten out a long time ago and found something that paid me more. Too many people say that the military doesn't get paid enough, well, I disagree, it's all in how you manage the income you "agreed" to take when you took the job that you took. Sure, you expect to get advancements, but those are not guaranteed, nor promised, you may suck at the next higher level and be forced to stay at an entry level job, if you don't like it, leave, find something that you're better at.

I do see your point, but not every auto worker is striving to be management and there will always be someone that is willing to work for a lesser wage and make due with what they are getting paid.

BTW, "Brass" do fight the battles;) Generals, Colonels and Majors ARE out in the field, maybe not to the extent that the lower ranks are, but they do go into the thick of it.

I still see the bottom line as if you don't like your wages and benefits, shop around to find a job that does have what you're looking for, don't try to force the hand of the company you are currently working for to give you more than what you were initially hired to receive.
 
Cperry said:
Again if there are no privates to fight the war the chain of supply and demand will rear its head and solve the problem. No supply of privates means high demand, high demand equals high wage. All of sudden everyone wants to be a private again.
A good example is offshore oil workers they make a ton of money b/c the demand is high its dangerous and no one wants to do it.
Click to expand...

well stated. But the supply outstrips the demand as long as we allow our companies to go overseas and and escape what creates the demand. Our need to work in this country. After all...we're the biggest consumers in the world! I wanna keep it that way.

And on that note...You're in the Car repair business, right? Good! Guess what. I can fix anything I own. Been doin it for 30+ Years, (except for periods when I made great wages). Guess what else. I dont want to spend what little free time I have workin on my shit. (Jeeps maybe...my truck? NO!) I want to make enough money, that I can hire you to do it, (please dont screw me!), and spend that time with my Grandchildren and my Jeeps! And if we all did that? You would be so busy, and making so much money, you could take more time off to be with your families and your hobbies. So we would need more auto repair shops! More auto repair guys makin more money to buy the products I make, at my job, that I need my truck to get to!

See how this works, people?

Cperry said:
This is a question? But what does china make that we actually need as a society? It seems to me they make cheap worthless shit that if it stopped all of a sudden really would not effect us. I might have to cut some 2x4's and belt sand them so my kid has some blocks to play with as oppossed to there cheap lead plastic toys.

Whats wrong with the steel market in the united states, we have the resources and the infrastructure. But china can buy are scrap metal ship it across the world melt it down and then ship it back and still manage to make money. I know there metalurgy is poop next ours but still think of how much it must cost to transport it. I would think it has to be unions and pensions that are killing the steel companies but someone can enlighten me.
Click to expand...

Again good points, with exceptions. It isnt just the "crap" from China. Its the automobiles in Mexico, the textiles in Sri Lanka. Its everything, everywhere!

Actually, Good Chinese steel is as good as any. But when you have a Government that will subsidize everything, including plant investment, and so forth, you have much lower overhead! Rememeber, China is a Communist Country. But that seems to be okay with us Capitlists as long as we can get our crap cheap! Cuz we would rather sell, and buy, cheap shit, rather than keep all of us working for a fair wage so we can buy better stuff!

Yager said:
That said... What is stopping our steel companies from recycling the steel and make low grade metal. Where did our industrial might go ?
Click to expand...

I reckon cuz with Chinese, (and others) Government subsidies, we can get more money for our scrap over there! In fact US steel manufacturers can just quit making steel at all here, and invest in Chinese steel manufacturing. They make millions and dont have to pay employees anything!! LOL!

Oops...lunch is over!:rolleyes:
 
RatLabGuy said:
90% is difference in the exchange rate, currency value, and the cost of the shipping relative to the local (e.g. china verses US) market.
People often forget that the value of $1 American is very different here, as opposed to $1 American in otehr countries.
In Winston Salem, I can buy a can of coke for $1 at a gas station.
In New York, I can buy 1/2-3/4 of a coke for $1.
In the UK, where 1 pound = $2 and coke is rare, I can buy only 1/3 of a coke at best for $1. Same w/ mainland Europe now that $1 = only .75 Euros.
Meanwhile, take that $1 to china (not HongKong, but rural where the factories are) and you can buy many, many cokes (or similar local drink, Coke brand no so popular and pricy, actualy). The $10 paid for a HarborFreight grinder, when converted to yuan is more than enough for profit.
Re: shipping - remember that it's not like me wrapping up a box and mailing it to you. Thinsg are shipped in HUGE containers with THOUSANDS of other items, pallets and pallets of them. Yep, it's expensive to do that - but take 10-20,000 items and split the cost among them and it comes out to very little per item (maybe 20-50 cents on that $10 tool MAX).
My father work for Sony-Ericson mobile, doing logistics... his group is responsible for figuring out the best/cheapest way to arrange all the misc crap involved in getting phones assembled and to the distributor. Any phone could have parts for m 5-6 countries in it and seen 30,000 miles of total travel by the time it lands in your hand. Why? Because different resources, from labor to raw materials, have differnt costs in different parts of the world, when you addup all those small differences it saves huge... esp when we're talking about quanities of 100,000 to 1 mil products per yesr.
Welcoem to Global Economics 101.
Click to expand...


I applaud you for nailing the point to the "T". "Global Economics" isn't a fairy tail, it's coming and I think it's inevitable.
 
Ok, so far 6 pages of things we are doing wrong, with two differing opinions on what exactly is wrong.


So here is the question, what are TEN things we could do to change our country for the better? (This will prob differ if you believe we should become more isolationist(Buy America) or to instead embrace Global Economy)


MUCH MUCH harder to put this down instead of tearing apart what is wrong. In other words you think if "we" all started doing this at the grassroot level it would 'fix things.'

My attempt, not sure I will get anywhere near 10...


1. Get educated - I am not talking formal education but to read mainstream publications AND the off the wall stuff like this thread. In other words read ALL the sides of the current issues of today.


2. Get Involved - Based on the above, once you read the stuff, find a position you can support and SUPPORT it. This means VOTE, campaign, volunteer & generally DO STUFF. (Possibly RUN for office and/or LEAD these efforts.)


3. Take a vow of quality - to put in an honest effort and commit to putting in honest days work for our pay. (Ouch, just stepped on OUR our 'surfing from work toes.') But if we truly become committed to quality as a country OR global worker, it is bound make things better.


4. Wean ourself of the 'have it now' lifestyle and instead move towards the 'pay for it in FULL' system of economy. In other words, less debt for crap we really don't "need" and oh offroad stuff is a NEED, not a want! :) But slapping down mr. plastic to build a rig you are gonna have to sell in 6 months cuz you really didn't have that kinda cash.....nuff said.


5. Recycle...yeah I am way guilty on this one, but I think we are all gonna have to get on this bandwagon. In fact, moving towards a GREENER lifestyle all told, so for a DD get something with better MPG if it makes sense for your commute. Look at bio-diesel, etc... This also means be LESS wasteful - how much stuff do we throw away or don't need? How many TSHIRTS do you have in your closet that you never get around to wearing?


6. Self-sufficiency... moving back in the direction of make it ourselves which probably will help us in the 'quality' desire too.


7.
 
SHINTON said:
Ok, so far 6 pages of things we are doing wrong, with two differing opinions on what exactly is wrong.
So here is the question, what are TEN things we could do to change our country for the better? (This will prob differ if you believe we should become more isolationist(Buy America) or to instead embrace Global Economy)
MUCH MUCH harder to put this down instead of tearing apart what is wrong. In other words you think if "we" all started doing this at the grassroot level it would 'fix things.'
My attempt, not sure I will get anywhere near 10...
1. Get educated - I am not talking formal education but to read mainstream publications AND the off the wall stuff like this thread. In other words read ALL the sides of the current issues of today.
2. Get Involved - Based on the above, once you read the stuff, find a position you can support and SUPPORT it. This means VOTE, campaign, volunteer & generally DO STUFF. (Possibly RUN for office and/or LEAD these efforts.)
3. Take a vow of quality - to put in an honest effort and commit to putting in honest days work for our pay. (Ouch, just stepped on OUR our 'surfing from work toes.') But if we truly become committed to quality as a country OR global worker, it is bound make things better.
4. Wean ourself of the 'have it now' lifestyle and instead move towards the 'pay for it in FULL' system of economy. In other words, less debt for crap we really don't "need" and oh offroad stuff is a NEED, not a want! :) But slapping down mr. plastic to build a rig you are gonna have to sell in 6 months cuz you really didn't have that kinda cash.....nuff said.
5. Recycle...yeah I am way guilty on this one, but I think we are all gonna have to get on this bandwagon. In fact, moving towards a GREENER lifestyle all told, so for a DD get something with better MPG if it makes sense for your commute. Look at bio-diesel, etc... This also means be LESS wasteful - how much stuff do we throw away or don't need? How many TSHIRTS do you have in your closet that you never get around to wearing?
6. Self-sufficiency... moving back in the direction of make it ourselves which probably will help us in the 'quality' desire too.
7.
Click to expand...

Most excellent statement I have read yet
 
SHINTON said:
Ok, so far 6 pages of things we are doing wrong, with two differing opinions on what exactly is wrong.


So here is the question, what are TEN things we could do to change our country for the better? (This will prob differ if you believe we should become more isolationist(Buy America) or to instead embrace Global Economy)


MUCH MUCH harder to put this down instead of tearing apart what is wrong. In other words you think if "we" all started doing this at the grassroot level it would 'fix things.'

My attempt, not sure I will get anywhere near 10...


1. Get educated - I am not talking formal education but to read mainstream publications AND the off the wall stuff like this thread. In other words read ALL the sides of the current issues of today.


2. Get Involved - Based on the above, once you read the stuff, find a position you can support and SUPPORT it. This means VOTE, campaign, volunteer & generally DO STUFF. (Possibly RUN for office and/or LEAD these efforts.)


3. Take a vow of quality - to put in an honest effort and commit to putting in honest days work for our pay. (Ouch, just stepped on OUR our 'surfing from work toes.') But if we truly become committed to quality as a country OR global worker, it is bound make things better.


4. Wean ourself of the 'have it now' lifestyle and instead move towards the 'pay for it in FULL' system of economy. In other words, less debt for crap we really don't "need" and oh offroad stuff is a NEED, not a want! :) But slapping down mr. plastic to build a rig you are gonna have to sell in 6 months cuz you really didn't have that kinda cash.....nuff said.


5. Recycle...yeah I am way guilty on this one, but I think we are all gonna have to get on this bandwagon. In fact, moving towards a GREENER lifestyle all told, so for a DD get something with better MPG if it makes sense for your commute. Look at bio-diesel, etc... This also means be LESS wasteful - how much stuff do we throw away or don't need? How many TSHIRTS do you have in your closet that you never get around to wearing?


6. Self-sufficiency... moving back in the direction of make it ourselves which probably will help us in the 'quality' desire too.


7.
Click to expand...

Well done...

I'll add #7. It should be number one cuz this is where it will have to start!

7. Elect a government that puts its own working people before corporate profits.

We are, by far, the largest consumer group in the world. That fancy catch phrase "Global Economy" don't fly with me cuz the workers in Sri Lanka and places like that we are sending our manufacturing jobs aren't buying refrigerators, washers, or even Nike Tennis shoes. WE ARE! So the products should ALL be a certain percentage, or completely made in this country. Period. There is no world wide "Free Market". Again, this is a term they created to make us all believe we are part of something bigger than just "US". Most of these other countries will continue to oppress its people and suppress imports. That aint "free Market"

We use the stuff, we should be making it. The rest of the world be damned.

We can do this!:bounce:
 
InfantryYJ said:
Not a comparison because the government can institute the draft and get "the workers" necessary ;)
Click to expand...


Awwww...there goes my illistration! LOL!

InfantryYJ said:
I've been in over 21 years enlisted, pay has never been an issue with me because I always make "enough", if I didn't feel that I was making "enough", I would have gotten out a long time ago and found something that paid me more. Too many people say that the military doesn't get paid enough, well, I disagree, it's all in how you manage the income you "agreed" to take when you took the job that you took. Sure, you expect to get advancements, but those are not guaranteed, nor promised, you may suck at the next higher level and be forced to stay at an entry level job, if you don't like it, leave, find something that you're better at.
Click to expand...

Yep. Military does pay well enuff. The bennies are great and the retirement is great. You dont pay for these things so the pay goes a little farther. But as well, we both know that, A) the pay pretty keeps up with the economy. Healthcare increases dont affect military personnel as much. And, B) Unless yer a total blivet, you will naturally advance as your performance to thier standards merit. Some take longer than others. And unlike out here in the civi world, once you reach "peter principle" level you can get booted back. Seems out here they just stay where ever the can do the most damage!

(BTW in the illustration, the privates "pay", wasnt meant as literal military paycheck, and "brass dont fight battles" meant "Top management dont build the widgets" in a corporation!)

InfantryYJ said:
I still see the bottom line as if you don't like your wages and benefits, shop around to find a job that does have what you're looking for, don't try to force the hand of the company you are currently working for to give you more than what you were initially hired to receive.
Click to expand...

I have worked on both the labor side and the management side of a company. Not really so different. In both jobs, I did the very best I could, because that made me worth more. And when I have made my self more valuable I feel I should be compensated. And granted, I have been fortunate enuff that most of the companied I have worked for did in fact reward me well. I never asked for anything up front. Only after I felt I had proved myself a valuable asset (the better grinder vs the cheapo grinder!) And I feel as my efforts result in higher profitability for the company, I should share in that reward.

Guess this is really a very basic difference in philosophies. Who is right? Doesn't really matter who is right! Probably isnt a "right" answer! Right answer may even lay somewhere in between these philosophies!


And just a note...my original position in this thread was not that of wage as much as it was Jobs leaving, and nothing remaining here but low paying jobs! Good job markets make good enuff wages on their own!

But sure was an exciting thread!:rolleyes:

6 pages of differing views! Cool!:bounce:
 
News alert- factory employees making nike tennis shoes is not a good job and the pay is horrible- the pay is terrible b/c a 7 year old can do it in another country. Why keep those jobs here, then you have to deal with safety requirements, unions minumum wage, it kills profits and becomes extremely difficult to do business. Stocks drop now its not even worth the hastle of being in business. Running a business is extremely difficult, stressful, and risky- one does it for the reward of profit, if you take that away then what is the point. I don't know anyone who says i am going to start my own business so i can employee alot of people and basically break even.

As for the children working comment i am just pointing out that if a 7 year old can do your job you shouldn't expect to get paid very much. And furthermore why the media does not out companies that use child labor is beyong me. Then if you saw someone wearing Nikes you could call them out on it, nice shoes didn't you see the news piece a poor sick 7 year old made those but you had to have them. Then word gets out Nikes evil reebok is not, everyone buys Reeboks instead. Thats how freemarket works. But the freedom of speech is to busy talking about k-fed and brittany, and hounding on Bush for trying to keep us from getting blown up again.
 
Cperry said:
...unions minumum wage, it kills profits and becomes extremely difficult to do business.
Click to expand...

Hmmmm..lets see...what ARE Nike's profits?

All through the years, corporations have always made huge profits with Union Labor. ALWAYS!

But when greed becomes unchecked like it is now, you will never satify the demands for profit. NEVER.

Profits?? Look at the largest corporations in the world. You will find almost ALL are Union. So that argument just dont wash!
Even with their shortcomings, Unions kept companies honest and smart. Now they are lazy and can be, because they can now rely on slave labor.

Corporate profits are out of control! Before the gas price increases, the oil companies posted profits of NINE BILLION! After the gas price increases, they posted profits of NINTEEN BILLION DOLLARS! What the Fuck people??! Can you really justify this in any light?? This aint capitalism, its stealin!
 
ol'Jeeps said:
Profits?? Look at the largest corporations in the world. You will find almost ALL are Union. So that argument just dont wash!
Even with their shortcomings, Unions kept companies honest and smart. Now they are lazy and can be, because they can now rely on slave labor.
Click to expand...


I just did the research, you are wrong.

Care to share YOUR souce?

Might wanna start with names like GE, ALCOA, Exxon/mobile et.al. ....
 
SkyHiK5 said:
I just did the research, you are wrong.
Care to share YOUR souce?
Might wanna start with names like GE, ALCOA, Exxon/mobile et.al. ....
Click to expand...

My father in law just retired from Firestone, and I know he's not part of a union, and I believe that Firestone is a large corporation, or it could just be a local mom and pop business ;)
 
ol'Jeeps said:
Corporate profits are out of control! Before the gas price increases, the oil companies posted profits of NINE BILLION! After the gas price increases, they posted profits of NINTEEN BILLION DOLLARS! What the Fuck people??! Can you really justify this in any light?? This aint capitalism, its stealin!
Click to expand...
Your a communist, Corporate profits are out of control- what does that mean. If it was your company you wouldn't think they were out of control. If the oil company is making to much money- stop buying oil, I am sure you own hybrid?
Invent a solar car that actually works and your profits will be out of control. Imagine a 1 ton solar pick up truck that could also generate power to power a job site. You invent that and its good and works your profits will be out of control.
 
When you here on the Radio that Oil is at $80.26 / barrel, Who dictates that price? Is that price that the Oil Company demands? or the price the Saudis Charge to pump it out of their land?

Honest question there. I don't know.
 
ol'Jeeps said:
Hmmmm..lets see...what ARE Nike's profits?


Corporate profits are out of control! Before the gas price increases, the oil companies posted profits of NINE BILLION! After the gas price increases, they posted profits of NINTEEN BILLION DOLLARS! What the Fuck people??! Can you really justify this in any light?? This aint capitalism, its stealin!
Click to expand...

yes, but what was their profit margin? IIRC, profit margin= what they made AFTER all the costs of production, R&D, etc. Certainly not the gross profits as quoted by you and the left-leaning big media.
 
mbalbritton said:
When you here on the Radio that Oil is at $80.26 / barrel, Who dictates that price? Is that price that the Oil Company demands? or the price the Saudis Charge to pump it out of their land?

Honest question there. I don't know.
Click to expand...

Its a comodity price.
Works just like a stock.
 
mbalbritton said:
Excuse my ignorance on this but, who is dictating the commodity price? The general publics demand? Governments? Some guy sitting in a basement closet at his mom's house?
Click to expand...

Most simply, I think... Guy "bets" fuel will be worth so much $$ in so much time. so he "buys" a tankerful (or something...shares?) for a price where he believes he will make money. So he sets the price based on what he is paying. If it goes above that, from other buyers "betting" more , he makes money. if eveyone else "bets" lower, he loses.

Did I get this right?
 
Cperry said:
Your a communist, Corporate profits are out of control- what does that mean. If it was your company you wouldn't think they were out of control. If the oil company is making to much money- stop buying oil, I am sure you own hybrid?
Invent a solar car that actually works and your profits will be out of control. Imagine a 1 ton solar pick up truck that could also generate power to power a job site. You invent that and its good and works your profits will be out of control.
Click to expand...

And you are a fascist. I would rather be communist, than fascist

InfantryYJ said:
"Chrysler pays its workers an average of $75.86 per hour in wages, pension and health care costs, the highest among the Detroit automakers."
Click to expand...

And as I said. So would the rest of the Automotive world if they didnt have government subsidized health care, investment, retirement, etc. AND it is a well known fact that American corporations are Horribly mismanaged! No wonder it costs em so much.

But also rememeber when Daimler Benz bought Chrysler? I quote...

"Unlike recent auto industry mergers, which frequently involved the gobbling up of small or failing companies by more powerful rivals, the Daimler-Chrysler deal involves two highly profitable companies, with combined net earnings of $5.7 billion in 1997. Daimler-Benz has rebounded from losses in the early 1990s to post record profits, while Chrysler makes a larger profit per vehicle than any other auto manufacturer."

Guess them UAW workers musta just about broke Chysler all those years, eh?

And by the way, I said "almost all" and Ill stand by at least "the majority of" em. I would be suprised if I was wrong on that, but could be....I didnt count!

Folks better wake up to what is happening in this country. Dont believe me. Look around for yourself! You call me a whore. You are terribly misguided, and woefully blinded by the right wing propaganda filling the conservative media these days. And if I am a whore, Im gonna be the $500 dollar variety, and you all aint gettin none of it unless you pay me what Im worth, cuz Im that good!:rolleyes:

Are you that good??

I can see this is going to be reduced to childish name calling so, I guess the grown up debate is over, so we can all put our swastika armbands on and just follow our fearless leaders into the labor camps!

Sieg Heil!
 
communist/fascist?whore what ever..... don't care kids, lets not get into name calling or this will go somewhere else.

Y'all have done pretty well so far.
 
Yep, agree, sorry and...thx

BTW...ya really need to debate UNION?

SkyHiK5 said:
I just did the research, you are wrong.

Care to share YOUR souce?

Might wanna start with names like GE, ALCOA, Exxon/mobile et.al. ....
Click to expand...

GE...UNION...United Electrical
Alcoa...UNION...United Steel Workers
Exxon...UNION...International Federation of Chemical, Energy, Mine and General Workers
Toyota, Japan, Phiilipines, Austrailia...UNION
Boeing...UNION...IAM
Airbus...UNION...European Metalworkers' Federation
Sony...UNION
Mitsubishi...UNION
Teachers...UNION

Shall I go on?

Gee...all the best factory jobs for all the best companies in the world are Union!!

Go figure!:rolleyes:
 
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