Land Purchase - How much would you put in??

How much would you put in.

  • Total voters
    91
  • Poll closed .
Yay!Gurrr

Yay!Gurrr

Better Faster Stronger
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Mar 17, 2005
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This is a sidebar conversation from the discussion going on in a thread in the NC Land Section. I figured it would get more visibility here..
The background/discussion is here:
http://www.nc4x4.com/forums/showthread.php?p=250833
But if you don't want to read that.. I'll summarize. If X number of people wanted to pool their money to buy land how much could you afford ?
$5000
$2000
$1000
$500
Depends on location.
Interested, but only if it takes off.
Not Interested.
It will never work.
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Note: You can select 1 option. It will be assumed that if you vote for a higher level, you would still put in if a lesser amount was picked.
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Note: this is purely a preliminary raise of hands for various levels of interest. Obviously if only 10 people say they can do this, things will go no where or if 10,000 people suddenly appear the potential for this project increase.
You are NOT signing up at this point BUT don't not vote unless you feel you could make the level of contribution your voting for. Obviously the more accurate this is the better idea of participation will be seen.
While there is NO MONEY being laied out at this time. IF this progresses to that point you will be expected to officially sign up for this. (aka 'put your money where you mouth is').
That said, this is NOT a scam, any moneys put in would be returned, minus any work/fees/filings done to that point everyone would get their portion back..
If you have questions (I sure do) relax, nothing has been decided only a lengthy discussion as to what is the best first step to take.. Obviously no money = no project.
VOTE !

Note: I added a few more options to better determine opinion on the matter..
 
Sorry if you already voted, please re-vote and/or reply with other thoughts..

Note: I made it a public pole, and added a few 'other' options.
 
Coming from a group that has been involved with FREE land to ride on for the last 2 years, all I can say is good luck. I doubt you will ever get enough money to buy any land large enough/worth riding on around here. Then if you do, it will never make any money for the simple fact that most people involed in this sport are either to cheap to pay anything for it, or don't want to ride anything hard enough to make the area a national draw.
 
See, this is the attitude that me and Mike discussed must be overcame. Face it 4wheelers as a group have a notorious reputation as cheap asses, yet SFWDA has raised over 100k to "save" tellico.

100k is a lot, but TU has 1.7 million members who pay $40/year for 3mags and a sticker....they have money. If we win round 1 who is to say we will be able to raise any money for round 2?

On the flip side if that same 100k was used to purchase even small tract it would be a guaranteed wheeling spot from now on.

Free land sounds great, but what promsie do you have? As long as someone owns it you could always wake up to find they are selling it, then where did your work go. If a 4wheeling group OWNS the land you can be assured that the land will be opened to 4wheelers.
 
1 more point.

Would the depends on location crowd post some thoughts.
I.E. "If its 1 hour from WS Id be willing to chip in $500" That would at least give us some idea as to where to look etc.

And remember if this idea flies, your contribution would give you a piece of ownership in this deal.

That said, I dont think the idea HAS to be a national draw or even ever show a profit. How much money do we blow on our hobby? How much is a guaranteed place to wheel now and in the future worth.
 
Private land is the way to go. 4 wheeling is not a god given right, and once land is scooped up, dont expect handouts. Florida is a perfect example of this. It is pretty much too late down there to do it. Up here there is that option. Don't let it get away. It may cost money now but it will ensure a wheeling area for futre years and generations.
 
rockmafia said:
Coming from a group that has been involved with FREE land to ride on for the last 2 years, all I can say is good luck.
Click to expand...
It would be nice to have FREE land to ride, and while I appreciate the open invites the 'Devils extend I can't go there whenever I want. IMO something like DPG would be PERFECT for what I'm looking for as long as it had a few trail loops.
rockmafia said:
I doubt you will ever get enough money to buy any land large enough/worth riding on around here.
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My thoughts also but I'm willing to try. Then again I don't have a FREE place to ride :( Granted we are still in the early stages of discussion but we're already pushing the $10K mark :)
rockmafia said:
Then if you do, it will never make any money for the simple fact that most people involed in this sport are either to cheap to pay anything for it, or don't want to ride anything hard enough to make the area a national draw.
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As I understand it, the intent of this venture is not to make money. It is to have a stake and a say in in the sport of 4x4ing. I definately DON'T want this to be a national draw! I see this as more of a share-owned recreation area for the stakeholders, not a venue for public wheeling.

I'm 58 years old and have been through things like this many times before. Business, bars, horse farms, game rooms, restaurants, etc. "Wouldn't it be nice if........." There are always dreamers and nay-sayers. You never know what might happen if you're willing to do some work. Might amount to nothing again or might end up being a new Gulches, Grey Rock or Crozet. I don't mind the "nothing again", what have I lost, while success would insure me a place to take my rig whenever I want and provide me with some 4x4 recreation stability in a very unstable present atmosphere!
 
That's something that hasn't been discussed. It's really not as simple as just buying it. Taxes each year. If there is a charge to ride, then someone to see to that. Most likely would need to have some type of charge in order to pay taxes and so on. Then there is the accounting of it all.
Now if we become the First Church Of Fourwheelin" there may be some tax benefits! LOL
Seriously if it can all be worked out I am all for it. I am not one that keeps a heavy bank account, but given time I would want to make a contribution. How much would depend on my current state of affairs.
 
These are ALL things that need to be discussed. When Ron says "US" above he means ANYONE who joined. We talked Wed nite for almost 2 hrs. And we debated every topic thats been post thus far.

Were not the lone rangers 'running' this, the goal was to set the ball in motion. US/WE = YOU


I was hesitant to post up too much for fear it would detract from the initial 'I'm interested' show of hands.

There were a few thoughts on how it 'could' operate. We discussed everything we could think of as to how to deal with various synerios. A few main possibilities came out.

First the land would probably be owned by a LLC 'type' company as this would protect everyones personal assets. You would own a share in the company. (more on that below).
The land could be used in various ways.
1) Private access, members could have access at anytime, something like +1 guest, several events per year would be hosted to allow open access at those times.. (club event, outings etc.. something along these lines.
2) Run as a business, hang a sing out front, open for business.
3) Some awesome yet unheard option.

There are SO many details that would need to be sorted out. Hell my wife had some good questions yesterday..
Shares in a company -
?? Can a small club 'join - My though was only if no more than 2 members go at anyone time. (similar to the member +1 idea)
?? Can several people go in on 1 membership. Hell if i know how that would all work out.. Ideas?

Many of the questions boil down to what's fair ? Whats simple to manage (or not have to manage)

Location - We all want it 5 min from our house... How far would you travel ?

IMHO the land needs to have rocks. NOT flat ATV type sand lot.


We ALL have opinions and thoughts, that is ALL this is at this point.. No money in the pot = no need to move forward. We can simply slide it back into the campfire discussion category. More $ = more selection in land..

Alpha had a question about taxes etc..

Ideally there would be so much $ upfront to pay for the land outright. And 1-2 'open' invites per year would be enough to cover any taxes etc..
But realistically there would a monthley dues. That would go into a pot to cover the remaining land payment and taxes. Ron ran some very rough numbers, and depending on the # of people and the land price the amount could be $20/month or upto X? if not enough people join.

IMHO there should be several 'bailout' points along the way.
1 - not enough interest
2 - not enough base money
3 - monthly dues would be too high
4 - land not found that meets needs outlined by members.
5 - XYZ
 
19 people willing to front $26k right now.

5500 NC4x4 members right now.

100% Participation:
5500 x $100 = $550,000! Probably enough.
5500 x $1000 = $5,500,000!! More than enough.

50% Participation:
2750 x $100 = $275,000
2750 x $1000 = $2,750,000

25% Participation:
1375 x $100 = $137,500
1375 x $1000 = 1,375,000

10% Participation:
550 x $100 = $55,000
550 x $1000 = $550,000
 
Would be inetersting to get Southern involved for support. Get a sponsorship from them, also maybe other 4WD shops to get there name out there. Like naming a trail after them for a donation. Also local clubs to get a club membership to let a group in at a time. Wosrt thing to deal with is locals who want to jsut sneak on and ride, or those who jsut want to ride and not pay or be involved.
 
If we had enough participation, and especially if it could be set up as a non profit, then maybe it could just be "open land". Just a place where anyone could go but the owners never said anything or cared?
 
"Id watch out for the open land thing. You know the burned out cars and trash would soon follow if people had a free for all access to it. :( I would like to have a controlled trail system to make the area nice and make it a poster child of what a maintained trail system can offer the environment.
 
DanStew said:
Get a sponsorship from them, also maybe other 4WD shops to get there name out there. Like naming a trail after them for a donation.
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I think this is a great idea.
Off road business owners have as much at stake in this sustainability in this hobby as anyone. And how uncommon is 5k/year as an advertising budget for many businesses?

What is half that went to an off road park?

What if in exchange for their donations they were allowed to set up a repair tent at open rides to offer repairs for those unable or unwilling to fix their rigs? Then their contributions could repay them 10 fold perhaps?

Any of the business owners on here wanna post up their thoughts here?
 
CYJKrawler said:
10% Participation:
550 x $100 = $55,000
550 x $1000 = $550,000
Click to expand...


I think this is the size me and mike saw as most realistic.
If it was more OF COURSE THAT WOULD BE GREAT.

What about 550 x $500 = $275,000
Then as far as taxes $550 x $10/month x 12 months = $66,000 year....

Power in numbers makes it look nice and $10/month would hardly be noticed by anyone.

Some other thoughts that were kicked around.
Perhaps members get free rides for life for their $500 (or whatever buy in) but others can ride for $20/weekend (again these numbers are all hypothetical. Or could buy in when they wanted. I.E. this became a club with a membership joining fee and monthly dues. As it grows money would begin to collect and then you could eventually buy a second tract, which would attract more members (closer to them) and could self-perpetuate.

Or maybe the initial buy in is an ownership stake and new members aren't accepted until a second tract is about to become available and then a membership drive, etc. To this end each members "investment" never loses share in the whole club should it be sold off, closed etc.


My point in these thoughts is that NOTHING is set in stone and TONS of ideas have been kicked around. I love the dialogue and I think all comments and criticisms are beneficial. If we have an answer to every problem we can dream up, we will be better prepared to ride the storm...


And as Mike said WE/US is not me and him or even those posting in this thread. IT IS EVERYONE.
 
With almost 5500 NC4x4 members:

234 views of this thread - Less than 5% of the membership

33 replies to the poll - Less than 1% of the membership

7 posters in this thread, 1 a nay-sayer - Less than 2/10 of 1% of the membership

Even considering that a lot of the membership is underage and still in school that's an extremely small percentage. I must say I'm suprised at the small amount of traffic the thread has generated. Hopefully this is due to the Holiday and it will pick up once everyone is back to their normal routine. Still:

1% of the membership (55) x $5k = $275k
1% of the membership (55) x $2k = $110K

True about the vendors having a stake in the sport as well as those who have invested lots of money in rigs. I understand lots of members don't have much extra money and what they do have they try to use to improve their rig but without a place to ride the rig will be useless! We're not guaranteed that even URE will be available in the future!
 
i think i could make it through that creek pictured!

so as long as the land isn't too far west I, along with a few friends, would be willing to throw in. After being home for thanksgiving break, all my local wheeling spots have either been sold to new owners not too enthusiastic about 4wd's or sold and been developed, so i'll be looking for some spots for you guys too.
(my grandpa has 70 acres he's going to be selling soon, too bad it's up in eastern PA lol)
 
yager said:
IF this progresses to that point you will be expected to officially sign up for this. (aka 'put your money where you mouth is')
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I don't put my hard earned cash anywhere until I know first hand what I'm buying. I would pony up $500 if I knew exactly where it was going. But, until then, I voted for Depends on Location.
 
johnski said:
I don't put my hard earned cash anywhere until I know first hand what I'm buying. I would pony up $500 if I knew exactly where it was going. But, until then, I voted for Depends on Location.
Click to expand...


And I think here in may lie a greatest struggle.

It makes no sense to look for land without a budget. (If you find a tract and a frantic fund raising campaign is beat by another buyer the whole process will lose steam)

Many are not willing to even state they would contribute until they know what/where you are looking at.

Thats why I asked the depends on location crowd to give some hints. For example. Id be willing to pay $10 to ride 100 times if it was 5 minutes from my house. But if it is 6 minutes I aint leaving home. At least then when land searches reveal show opportunities a group has an idea what there support would be.

Also, CJYKrawler makes some excellent points, but this is just an info gathering start. If this thing gets legs, it will spread to CK5, carolinaK5, nckrawlers, all the various Jeep,Yota,Bowtie,Bronco forums etc. as well as some other ideas for direct marketing locally.

Strength is in numbers. 1,000 members with $500 could make a nice dent... And really who here hasnt spent $500 on wheeling in the last 90 days?
 
Lets buy Callalante! Mr Brown dont need it!;)

On a serious note...most people will take a back seat during the beggining, but if it progresses to a realistic point and is within reach, people will jump on the already rolling band wagon.

In other words...Dont let this die.

I dont have the brainpower or knowledge to do it(legal mumbo jumbo), but I will help show the way to the bandwagon once its rolling! I do know how to run my mouth and beg!

This is a great idea and a wonderful dream. I automaticaly think of those cool guys that own Area BFE, and what they have accomplished. Maybe a direct chat with one of those guys would be of benefit to our cause.

The most important thing we can do is to keep this idea alive and not give up!
 
What happens when the EPA, TU and the Enviro-nazis complain about run off and destruction of the natural habitat of the one legged Green eyed red toad spotted Beetle?

Unless a select few people actual have the land in their name and not some LLC (business).

I personally love the idea, and would contribute what I could (which right now in my life isn't much), but every avenue has to be researched to see that the purpose of the land wasn't stripped from us.
 
mbalbritton said:
What happens when the EPA, TU and the Enviro-nazis complain about run off and destruction of the natural habitat of the one legged Green eyed red toad spotted Beetle?

Unless a select few people actual have the land in their name and not some LLC (business).

I personally love the idea, and would contribute what I could (which right now in my life isn't much), but every avenue has to be researched to see that the purpose of the land wasn't stripped from us.
Click to expand...

This brings up another question I have. Suppose you decide (by majority vote?) to fight the EPA with your own lawyers. Is there any limit to how much a member would have to pay to continue the legal battle?
 
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