Land Purchase - How much would you put in??

[SHINTON]

My guess is, based on the discussions to date:

Core group of OWNERS will emerge here, this core group will include some NC4x4 folks AND folks that we KNOW / that are not regulars on here but are involved in 4x4ing that are financially stable as well.

To "make sense" as an 'investment' the property will end up going in the direction of multi use / revenue streams to pay for ongoing taxes, and payments towards paying the loan off.

Some of those would be:

Campground spots, rented on a weekend / or annual basis. This would also be tied into a riding fee and MAY NOT be available to the general public!!! In other words it is VERY likley that you will need to be either an

OWNER
MEMBER (of Leasing club)
or WORKER (trading time for riding rights)

to use the land. There maybe some open invites out there, but this creates a HUGE liability and so those invites maybe under some sort of umbrella like a quarterly SFWDA meeting that the property owners HOST, etc?

So this is a group "Members / Leasors" who do not have ownership in the property, but pay annual dues/lease fees for the right to ride on the property / use the campground. (Thinking "HUNTING CLUB") Obviously the amount of cash here is greatly reduced.


Next....timber sales / Christmas tree sales, this actually will go a long way towards offsetting original cost. In the case of Christmas trees, we would likely LEASE tracts of land to a Christmas tree farmer who plants, and maintains and harvest those trees.

RENTAL FEES: This maybe another revenue stream where a large / organized club rents the park for a given event. Think the Land Rover guys, or Hummer clubs, basically the same way the SuperLift park in Alabama runs 100% of the time.


So, three different ways (or 4 if you include park rental or SFWDA/UFWDA events) to ride. Owner, Member, Worker, etc.

That is just based on how many of the responders that have $$$ have come out. They do NOT expect to make a profit, all extra revenues to be reinvested in equipment, paying off the property early, etc.

The owners would have bylaws, buyout agreements, etc, and by making this an investment with multi-revenue streams, the banks are going to be interested as well.

My guess is for insurance purposes, we will want to seriously consider ALL Owners, Members and Workers to be SFWDA members / submit dues on our behalf to get us included into their umbrella liability policy for organized rides. (General Liablility policy outside of that for "Farming", maintaining, etc.)

Sam

 

[Ron]

I hate to keep sounding like the controller of this, but I will offer some of the thoughts me and Mike spoke about the other night in form of a reply.

One important thing to consider, a LARGE part of this is getting ideas. It would be very beneficial to see some opinions of what is wanted/what would be attractive. This isn't a complete plan and thee more input the better.

I'll just repeat my question.
Would this be 4x4 only? Or since we'd be joint owners in the property, anything goes?
People have mentioned, hunting, camping, fishing.
What about ATVs? dirtbikes? mtbikes? Horses?
Are all these different user groups going to get along? Seems like you'll have to have rules out the wazoo like a HOA.
I like the general concept of pooling money to buy some land for recreation purposes. Devil's in the details.

THIS IS JUST MY OPINION ON THE MATTER, I WELCOME YOURS AND OTHERS

I think the purpose of the park is 4x4 OHVs. Anything that would detract from that should be strictly against the mission statement of the organization.

Camping - Comes with the territory. Would need to be Designated areas like anywhere else (Dont want someone sleeping ON the trails) and Id like to see potentially full service hook ups (at least a few) for the RV/toterhome crowd.

Fishing- If the property has a pond sure why not.

Hunting- I am an avid hunter, but probably better if this is left out. #1 Irresponsible hunters could injure others #2 This would be a wheeling site that wouldnt be condusive to good hunting, and I don't wanna see a conflict because some one scared away your 10 pointer. Perhaps if there was a high demand you could have a few designated hunts a year. Maybe Bow only and during the week? anything along these lines would need to be approved by the "owners"

ATVs -Im not sure where they fit. In my experience OHV and ATV crowds never get along. Maybe if the whole deal is borderline on enough members an ATV crowd could make it fly? Or maybe it would be OHV only and have 1 or 2 ATV events/year. Again. Im not sure Id want them at all, despite owning 2. But if there is a strong support for it I wouldnt mind them either.

Horses and Mountain Bikes - I'm gonna lump these together. Again It wouldn't be a deal killer for me, but IMHO both of these are probably better left out. Simply put they would require different types of trails and would serve to clog up trails as they couldnt keep up with OHVs generally speaking.

Now Bolt On John I have given my opinion what is yours?
What I think me and Mike would love to hear, is feedback such as, If X is/is not allowed I would/would not be interested.

For example, Im non committal on ATVs, if you said I am interested ONLY if ATVs are allowed and 5 others said I am in ONLY if they are banned then wee know where this stands.

how long would we have access to the land?
I wouldn't mind investing money as long as I KNOW my guests(with me) and I will have acess. the place would need caretakers to help keep the place clean. there will always be the "land abusers" and "eco-terrorists" to protect it from.(not refering to responsiable wheelers)

We are talking about a joint proposition where a group of people would BUY the land. As such you would have access as long as "we" own the land. Unless of course you sell your stake .

I think trail maintenance could be maintained by a few work days a year, and hopefully since each user would have a vested interest in the upkeep of the property there would be a strong level of self policing.

See this was a long topic of debate between myself and Mike. While we BOTH agree that 100-200 people putting up 2k each is IDEAL, we are both skeptical that we will be able to find that many. I think 500 willing to chip in 500 is much easier to find, and would put less burden on the others if 1 member goes AWOL. Remember this would probably require not only an initial investment, but an ongoing monthly(or yearly) dues to pay taxes etc.
And the math is real attractive
500membeers x $10/month x 12 months = 60k/year.
At 100 members that equals a $50/month investment.

Just food for thought.

I am interested in seeing this through fruition, however speaking for at least some of the broke college students on this board the most $$ I can spare at any given time is likely to be around $100. I know this is thing is heading towards the guys who can invest the $5k (+/-) but what if say the guys who drop say a $100 a year can ride on the weekends (Sat/Sun only)? I just think what this idea needs is capital and we shouldn't be pushing away the smaller guys. Money is money, it adds up. Just my .02

All this is stuff that needs to be ironed out. And probably plays into my thoughts above.

I am in a position where I could contribute 5kto this idea and not really even flinch. I know there are many who are not in the same boat, and by excluding some of those folks you would bee knocking a ton of talent out of the pool.

If the investment amount came in at 2k or more, I think we would need to analyze the merit of joint or club memberships. Perhaps a scenario where 4 members put up $500 each, and only one could be present at a given time. (Not really sure how that would play out and policing would need to be worked out, just a thought)

However, if the buy in works out at $500, IMHO anyone who cant come up with $500 isnt really serious enough to be dependable in this venture. Now while that may sound harsh at first blush, its important to remember we wouldnt be saying you need money tomorrow, this would likely take 6months to a year to come together. In that amount of time anyone should be able to pigeon hole away $500, or even get a personal note from the bank, or hell barter for it. I mean honestly many probably spend $4-500/month on their hobbies collectively (whether they be wheeling, hunting, fishing, beer drinking, chasing tail, whatever) so 1 month of putting away could help.


I personally believe, that there needs to be a gate fee that would allow non members to ride. But one thing me and Mike discussed, is this may play into a liability issue.

 

[J.C.]

Remember, just thoughts:
For kicks:
I found a 244 acre site on line in Randolph County, NC for $800k
200 Investors x $4k = Owned outright. Sell $20k on site timber for improvements

Also:
A 60 acre site on line in Randolph County, NC for $250k
100 Investors x $2500 = Owned outright

No loans, no banks, no revenue streams (sorry Sam ), we do what we want with the property as far as allowing events, guests, etc.

I personally don't think we can get 500 investors to put in $500 but I could be wrong. There could be "shares" at $500 with each "share" equaling a vote then the guy that puts in $5k gets 10 votes on investment issues, the guy that puts in $500 gets 1 vote.

I also don't like the "gate fee" idea right now. How in the world would it be policed/inforced. Then when I have a mod to my rig I want to test out I head out to the property and find I can't even get in the unloading lot for all the rigs and there's $20 in the "gate fee" box! I'm not against events, club rides, etc, just an open gate with fee senario.

The more I think along these lines and formulate my list of things I want and do not want the more elitist I become. I do not expect to invest $5-10k for the entire NC 4x4 community to use. Nor do I want to exclude them from reasonable use of the property. I just see this as more of an opportunity for some folks with some investment capital to get together in a common cause than to include each and every person with a 4x4 in NC an opportunity to buy a timeshare in a 4x4 park.

If there were 20 people that seriously wanted to do something like this and put up $10k each it would work a lot simpler than 10,000 at $20. Just my .02

OTOH, if 500 people show up that want to put in $500 each,count me in

 

[BoltOnJohn]

I was just trying to get a feel for what people are thinking.

I'm an on the sidelines sort of guy. I'd be willing to invest some money if I was allowed to use dirtbikes, mountain bikes, and ATVs because that's what I've been up to lately.

One obstacle this idea needs to overcome is getting agreement on usage. As a land owner you'd have the idea you could do what you want. This is a bit different. When the ringleaders behind this idea nail down more specifics the list of supporters will firm up.

 

[kaiser715]

One thing that will have to be addressed is tresspassers and how to handle them. I assist in the management of one large tract, and it is a constant battle against hunters, atv'ers, people fishing, etc. How many gates/fences have to go up to keep them out (atv's will drive around, others will cut fences, cut locks, drive thru gates, etc).

Even if we had member/owner ID cards, would local law enforcement be of any help whatsoever? I doubt it.

I'm all for this plan, and will participate. But there are a whole lot of "what ifs".

I do like the $500 (or $1000) share idea. Buy as many "votes" as you can or want. Maybe different "levels" of membership, too...one share is "junior" level, and you only ride Saturdays or odd weekends or something. Two shares, you get more privileges, like combo to the gates, camping access, etc. Maybe if you have just one share, you have to put in so many hours each month. Just thinking (wildly) out loud.

 

[upnover]

As stated before, I would be interested in this. My interest would depend on where it's located. If it is more than 2 hours away, just a work weekend would have substantial investment for me. I would not be in favor or ATV's and Motorcycles. I get my fill of those at Callalantee and URE. Not saying everyone of them, but many are very disrespectful of the land, going off trails and such, ...just because it's so easy for them I guess. The loud ones are very much a nuisance when you can't even hold a conversation in camp because of the barrage of racing an circling and so on.
I would be interested based on cost, and how long I would have to come up with it. I am a lot like the school guys, but I have the potential if that makes sense.
At the very least I would want primitive camping with a water source and at least out houses. Eventually a shower house.
Policing would be everyone's responsibility as far as trash and so on. The more selective you are on who gets in the easier that will be. Trespassing could be monitored by some of the closer members. All members having a carry card that explains and gives them the right to call LE if need be. Decently constructed gates, Ditches and natural landscape would be good deterrents.
I think Members should be allowed to bring "a" guest(rig). Self policing, Maybe limit the number of times a guest can come a year.
With anything this big I think some guidelines or rules should be in place. I would think there should be some sort of board to rule on infractions and disciplines. Anything of this size is bound to bring in someone who believe they are above the rules and will do what they please.

 

[J.C.]

"Anything of this size is bound to bring in someone who believe they are above the rules and will do what they please"

That's one of my issues with the 500 x $500 senario. There is definately power in numbers financially but there is also power for abuse.

"If it is more than 2 hours away, just a work weekend would have substantial investment for me"

That's another issue. A centrally located east/west site in NC would be the Mocksville area and that is still a 4 hour drive from Murphy and Jacksonville! Definately not going to be able to please all investors with ANY site selection and the overwhellming majority right now are "Depends On Location" votes.

 

[BIGWOODY]

This is sorta shocking to see some of the responses. Some of the people who are ready to pony up big cash have also complained about having to pay $15 or more to ride at a private park, wtf? We have basically free land, centrally located and have a hard time getting people out there to ride at all. Good luck, I'd love it if it works out. I think you have people on here who are barking a helluva a lot louder than they are willing to bite.

 

[Bobby D.]

for what it's worth, I like the playground, but there have been times when ya'll had an open weekend and I couldn't make it. I would like to go there more often.

 

[J.C.]

This is sorta shocking to see some of the responses. Some of the people who are ready to pony up big cash have also complained about having to pay $15 or more to ride at a private park, wtf? We have basically free land, centrally located and have a hard time getting people out there to ride at all. Good luck, I'd love it if it works out. I think you have people on here who are barking a helluva a lot louder than they are willing to bite.

Greg, I thought you were The Man, centainly you don't think of $2k as big cash? FWIW, I really like coming to DPG, come almost everytime there is an invite and from what I see there is usually a good crowd. If there was a buy in option for DPG I'd be 1st on the list!

 

[upnover]

This is sorta shocking to see some of the responses. Some of the people who are ready to pony up big cash have also complained about having to pay $15 or more to ride at a private park, wtf? We have basically free land, centrally located and have a hard time getting people out there to ride at all. Good luck, I'd love it if it works out. I think you have people on here who are barking a helluva a lot louder than they are willing to bite.

I for one really like the DP. I have only been a couple of times due to work schedule or club rides. If I were closer I would go more often. Right now it's about as far for me to go there as Harland or Tellico, Mnt city is closer, so I have to pick and choose. Sure would be nice to be able to go there more often. One thing that kills it for me is the fact that I am not a member and can only go on open invites. Now I have been invited to come down at other times, but I like the big ride, bunch of people type thing. Last time I was there for an open invite, I left and went to the new place, and when I cam back everyone was gone. I had come to camp. Driving down and back plus trail riding the same day isn't my thing, unless it was close to me as "the farm" and I have camped there a time or two.
That's why my participation would be largely due to where it is. I know I am lucky up this way, I am a lot closer than most to a lot of great trails. Something down east would make sense for sure since there are fewer choices to ride.

 

[Yay!Gurrr]

I can say I'm not shocked by any of the replies or how most are voting.. Purely group dynamics at work.. Most comments are very true in one way or another.

Bigwoddy is right.. I laughed when the last DPG rock race was canceled. Not at the Mud Devils but at the clowns who sit home and cry about not having any place to wheel. [Granted every effort for me to get down there has been meet with broken tow rig or other time/date conflicts. I will make it if they continue to offer the invites.. ]

IMHO the reason more are willing to put up $ else where is, DPG is only accessible by the Mud Devils club/members, at their discretion and/or land owners discretion. This is how anyone would have to manage their property and I can fully respect what they have done and established at DPG and completely understand the need for controlled access. URE is a perfect example, look at how destructive people are there... You guys have something great and simply want to maintain that. But when does that time run out ? Are there any guarantees at DPG. Is there anything that ensures the place will be available 5,10,20 years from now ?

Does the property owner want to sell some land ?

Anyway.... I know Ron says 'Mike and I talked' etc.. and while we did talk about our opinions on the matter we both clearly realize this is a GROUP effort. I'm willing to go with what makes the most sense for the group and ensure long term stability and viability of the group and land were seeking.

As I've read the thread.. I've slowly started leaning towards the fewer people with more $.. I just can't see 500 people all wanting the same thing and all being able to 'do the right thing' at all times.

I can easily see 50-100 people on the same page. If there were fewer people. I'd assume we'd all know each by name. I would have NO/zero problem if at the level they wanted to ride ATVs/Mt Bikes/DirtBikes/Double wides etc.. IMHO still manageable with 100 members.. Any more that that you'd need to start having hard, fast, easy to manage rules to keep things simple.

 

[TeamSpatula]

OK, a few thoughts from another of the "depends on location" people:
My family owns ~70 acres about an hour from my mom's house. We used to have issues with people hunting illegally on it, tearing things up, etc, until we finally worked out a deal with some cousins who live nearby. They have exclusive hunting rights, and they keep an eye on the place in exchange for that. Point being that it would be good to have a lot of eyes on the place, watching for trouble. And if the name on the No Trespassing signs is a local one that people recognize, there's less likely going to be trouble.
We are currently going through the sustainable timber harvest process ourselves...as mentioned, there are some great tax breaks if the land is being forested according to procedure. Not sure how much income that will bring, but it should be a nice chunk of change...something to keep in mind as this progresses...

Anyway, location is the key for me...heck, it's hard enough for me to drag my junk 100 miles to URE, so it would really need to be within a half hour or so's ride from me to make it worthwhile...but then again within a half hour of Hickory are some great mountains, hills, rocks, etc...and this area is close to Charlotte, Asheville, and decently close to Winston, Salisbury, etc...but as mentioned unless we buy an Eastern location and a Western location, some people are going to be "too far" away...
$500 isn't too much for me to come up with, and that's actually not a bad investment financially, assuming that the ownership LLC has all the paperwork, and all that fun stuff in a row...eventually we'll want a good lawyer to get all that straightened out, address responsibilities & liabilities, etc...

and one last FYI - I think a square mile is 640 acres...

 

[uncc civilengineer]

Here's what I think..... and I'm all for a private land purchase to wheel on.

First, if we want rocks we're going to have to look towards the foothills or mountains... I feel the Devils Playground areas are few and far between... We just dont have big rocks here in this area. North Wilkesboro area might fit the bill? IDK.

Second, avoid purchasing any land with a "wetland" area located on it.. or even around it for that matter. Pay a CE firm to go out and determine there are no wetlands on site, endangered species, etc.

Third, Erosion control should be top priority even if it's private land... When erosion leaves your site you're prime target to get sued. Proper Erosion Control measures implemented from the get go will go a long way at keeping people off your back (NCDENR, EPA, ect.).

Fourth, from my understanding (in NC) if you disturb over 1-acre of land... you're going to need an Erosion and Sedimentation Control Plan sealed by a PE.. As well as associated fees for permits, etc... Just a heads up. That plan will go to NCDENR and can take months to get reviewed, etc.

Fifth, Of course it would be nicer to have 25-50 owners in this but how feasible is that going to be? I couldn't say exactly how much I would contribute b/c that would depend on how often I thought I could wheel there <--- honesty

I honestly feel some form of "kick-off" event w/ 10.00 admission, food/drink money, 50/50, etc. would at least get some money in the pot...

BUT, you better call it a Car/Truck Show (give out a few trophies) otherwise no-one will show up... that was evident at the last DPG ride/rock race...

**Maybe a committee should formed to sit down and come up w/ an outlined "detailed" plan.

 

[vanguard]

I voted depends on location. I could part with a little money if this was for real and somewhere around the Raleigh/Youngsville/Durham/Wake Forest area. What I really want is a place where I can have fun and test out my rig. If I had access to Devil's Playground anytime I wanted it my needs would be met. But as it stands today I don't have a great way to test out my rig. That means I take a risk when I drive 6+ hours to wheel for a weekend and the only testing I've done is two laps around my subdivision.

I'd bet that for this to work it would have to be somewhere around Raleigh. If you go further west then you have guys that are already close to Callalantee, Tellico, and Harlan. They have no incentive to pay $1,000 if they can wheel in those places for $20 or less. If you go further east you don't have the concentration of wheelers to come up with the money. But around Raleigh you have a lot of people with nowhere to wheel.

I just need a testing area like DPG and I'd be willing to pay if it was close to me.

 

[BoltOnJohn]

I voted depends on location. I could part with a little money if this was for real and somewhere around the Raleigh/Youngsville/Durham/Wake Forest area. What I really want is a place where I can have fun and test out my rig. If I had access to Devil's Playground anytime I wanted it my needs would be met. But as it stands today I don't have a great way to test out my rig. That means I take a risk when I drive 6+ hours to wheel for a weekend and the only testing I've done is two laps around my subdivision.
I'd bet that for this to work it would have to be somewhere around Raleigh. If you go further west then you have guys that are already close to Callalantee, Tellico, and Harlan. They have no incentive to pay $1,000 if they can wheel in those places for $20 or less. If you go further east you don't have the concentration of wheelers to come up with the money. But around Raleigh you have a lot of people with nowhere to wheel.
I just need a testing area like DPG and I'd be willing to pay if it was close to me.

I agree that something near Raleigh would be great. Someone said you'd have to be in the foothills or mountains to have any rocks but I know that's not true. There are certainly some hilly/rocky areas around Raleigh. Problem would be finding a property that including terrain you liked and the closer you are to Raleigh the more $$$/acre it's going to cost you.

 

[dweymer]

I have not seen any mention of insurance. Can anyone talk with DP and find out what kind of premiums they pay. We all know someone who has that one friend who would sue if they broke a finger in a floop!

 

[J.C.]

What I really want is a place where I can have fun and test out my rig. If I had access to Devil's Playground anytime I wanted it my needs would be met. But as it stands today I don't have a great way to test out my rig. That means I take a risk when I drive 6+ hours to wheel for a weekend and the only testing I've done is two laps around my subdivision. I just need a testing area like DPG and I'd be willing to pay if it was close to me.

My thoughts exactly!

As the discussion continues it is becoming clear to me that 1 central location will not work for the majoriy of NC4x4 members not to mention those in SC/TN/VA. Not sure how it will play out in the end but it will definately be a sticking point for acquiring investors!

 

[MR. GADGET]

I have not said anything tell now but I hope it will work and be local to Raleigh, and if it was would pay up 2k to get in to it but it would also need to be run correctly for me to put money in. I was part of a club property and now part of a second that has worked good for many years. I'm part of a shooting club that was set up and owns a few hundred acres. It was setup with a buy in of stock, in the 1500$ range and the base stock members all went in for the property and if it is ever sold and money would go equal to the stock members. There was a bank note for the land and a cap for members and the land was paid off in a few years. We have stock members and General members. Money or dues for stock members were the stock they got but general members pay 180 per year and must renew each year. Everyone has the same use of the land and can bring a guest but must follow the rules and if they are not followed then the member can be told by the stock members after a vote not to ever come back. If any of the members see anything that is not done by the book you can bring it up or call the cops as they have a open invite to check things out. It is set up as a non profit and at the end of the year when all the bills are paid for the next year they don't carry a balance over to the next year and the stock members are treated to a cook out or steak dinner at the meeting for there work in the club. The rest of the money is put into the club. This has worked for many years and could work for us but people need to play by the rules and have something to loose, not just the 15$ that was paided at the gate or something like that. I think we have 250 members at the general $180 per year and have a list if they don't renew for next year............

 

[336wheeler]

With that many people, it would be tough to make everyone responsible. It would be tough to tell a paying member that they can't do something (as far as land abuse goes), although it would be necessary. There would definitely be ones that would abuse the land more than others, and abuse their privileges with a "Don't tell me I can't do that... I payed." sort of attitude.

 

[TheGriz]

I also voted as depends on location... Selfishly speaking, someplace in the triangle area or just east of the Greensboro area :Rockon: would be great. It would be nice to have a place to wheel for half a day and not drive 2-6 hours.

My financial contribution would be directly influenced by the proximity of the location.

My personal preference, but I'm not as interested in trail riding as I am about playing on a variety of obstacles. To me, 60 acres with a dozen obstacle areas would be just as much fun (or more) than 250 acres with a dozen obstacles.

Crozet is a good example of private land wheeling. I am not sure of the acreage, but it is small-ish.

I am a bit surprised how little liabilty has been mentioned. Not just about buildings, but rather associated with obstacles and such. There is substantial risk for injury and damages, compounded by multiple shareholders, guests, and un-invited guests.

 

[MR. GADGET]

With that many people, it would be tough to make everyone responsible. It would be tough to tell a paying member that they can't do something (as far as land abuse goes), although it would be necessary. There would definitely be ones that would abuse the land more than others, and abuse their privileges with a "Don't tell me I can't do that... I payed." sort of attitude.

It works and has been, Members look out for the club, Maybe you are saying that 4wheelers don't care? If I see a sign that said stay on the trail and someone cutting off the trail I would say something to them, If they give me crap the I would take a picture and send it to the BOD and let them deal with it.
Think you would do the same if that keeps the trails open. YOu will have that I Paid crap if its a per day because they don't care and may not ever be back but those that pay 1500 or member fee of $180 or what ever don't want to loose the money or a place to go.
Maybe gun nuts are different and play by the rules, never has anyone said anything back when you tell them to clean up after they shoot or to slow down. Part is they don't know who you are, and if you are the one that could be on the BOD and send them packing for the day and vote them out. Part of the stock is that it is part your land and you can at anytime tell someone that they are to leave. The "Don't tell me I can't do that... I payed." sort of attitude. .....does not hold up to the I own it get the hell out!!! People at the top make and follow the rules then the rest will.

 

[MR. GADGET]

My personal preference, but I'm not as interested in trail riding as I am about playing on a variety of obstacles. To me, 60 acres with a dozen obstacle areas would be just as much fun (or more) than 250 acres with a dozen obstacles..

I hunt 250 acres and it is small just walking...
Try to put 30 plus tow rigs and trailers and rigs in 60 acres and have something to wheel on other then the trailers.......
You need a lot of room for drive way parking, camping and the set-backs around the property, I'm thinking it would take 300 + acres. The old farm was a box and it was 500 acres, could drive the hunting trailes in 5 min and hit most all the land.

I am a bit surprised how little liabilty has been mentioned. Not just about buildings, but rather associated with obstacles and such. There is substantial risk for injury and damages, compounded by multiple shareholders, guests, and un-invited guests.

Should be easy, or at least less then our gun range. It would need to be a LLC, and members would be going after there pocket.....
If you fall in your yard you going to call your wife and say I'm going to call the insurance and get loads of money? Hell no!! you just get up and keep going.

 

[dweymer]

If you fall in your yard you going to call your wife and say I'm going to call the insurance and get loads of money? Hell no!! you just get up and keep going.

But the thief who trips on your rake while breaking into your trailer will. Even if he does not win, it will cost money to defend, thus insurance would be mandatory.

 

[Tom@Hilltop_Machine]

Hey mike, could you put together a survey to see what members could offer in the way of resources? Say labor, materials, heavy equipment, law enforcement, legal issues and land management training or education, etc. I imagine with the diversity of our membership we could use our internal resources pretty well to cover most of the issues that will arise from this venture..