Land Purchase - How much would you put in??

How much would you put in.

  • Total voters
    91
  • Poll closed .
I've had several thought on how it 'might operate if I were to choose..

My thoughts were strict private membership. Members ride whenever they wanted. 3-4 large events per year that were hosted by the members to generate $ for taxes and future growth/expansion.

Large events would be insured, food, etc.. Any non members pay your event fee and ride. Want to ride more often, join. Something like big dawgs events.

Clubs could ride on off weekends for a set fee.

After the land was purchased, you could join in at a higher price, or wait until the next tract was being considered and join that one. Once your a member of one tract you'd have reciprocal privileges at the other tracts etc..

I know I'd a dreamer but I've killed $500 with out trying making a 4x4 trip. Motel, food, parts, fuel etc.. I'd happily skip a trip to pay for the future of wheeling

My .02 on the 1 legged lot lizard is... If the land was researched properly that risk could be minimized. IE, don't buy wet lands, minimal creeks, and or immediate construction of bridges across creeks. Proper silt control on trails where needed. Tree management, possible small X-mass tree plots.

Possibly sticking to clearcut, timber cut land, where we would be 'improving' the area by letting it grow back up and maintaining it. Rather than subdividing it and building 100s of houses..

I think we've all learned a lot from the work we've all done over the years at URE and Tellico on how to deal with some stuff up front.
 
I think that this is some thing that could work.

I think that the best thing would be to have a non profit organisation.
Then people who were interested in using the land would buy "shares" in the organisation
The money from the Shares would go to Purchase new land and improve current places.

This land could be use for more that Just 4wheeling. i.e camping, hunting fishing.....
Only share holders and ther Guests could use it.

There could be events held there to help off set the cost of the taxes and upkeep

It would be like buying into a time share that you could use anytime and would be yours for ever.

The number of Share holders would have to be in relation to the size of the land availble.

the problen is I think it would have to a lot of land or no one would really be interested. I mean you can drive to URE and for $5 ride all you want
 
Ridgerunner said:
I mean you can drive to URE and for $5 ride all you want
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As of 11-24-07. It will be closing soon for 3 months and who knows how long before there will be longer or more extensive closures. There have also been increased fee schedules discussed in the past year. All government managed lands are under seige from environmentalists right now URE is no exception. Also, just because the current URE management is sympathetic to our cause dosen't mean that the next regime will be as cooperative!

As for the "one legged Green eyed red toad spotted Beetle", I say that extensive environmental scouting should be done at the outset and that we should stay away from lands with creeks and potential for run off as much as possible.
 
One thing that would have to happen - at least at first - is restrictions on resales of shares.

For example, somebody, due to family, etc, job move out of the area, etc, needs to get out of his investment...he can't afford to leave $1000 tied up in something he'll never use. The non-profit (or whatever) land holding company still needs to sell 100 shares to pay for the land...but this person offers his share at $900 to unload it...effectively robbing the non-profit of selling a "new" share" to the purchaser.

Look at some of the campground timeshare deals...three grand new...five hundred from somebody trying to sell out of their contract.

I'd think resales would have to be limited for say an initial 5 year period, until the land holding company (nonprofit, LLC, whatever) has a chance to recover it's investment.

Also, a registered timber guy ought to be included from the ground up, and a managed timber plan put in place... a timber farm counts as farm status as far as property taxes, etc. A large enough piece of land can be managed such that it would cover it's own costs (property tax/etc).

I'd still be scared of the eviro-weenies and what they could do.
 
Ridgerunner said:
This land could be use for more that Just 4wheeling. i.e camping, hunting fishing.....
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That is a good idea, people are always looking for someplace to go camping, myself included. I think it would be a good source of revenue. To cut down on the initial start up fees, the camping could be primitive. Another way to offset some of the cost would to have a garage where people could work on their junk when it breaks, and charge an hourly rate for usage.
 
Ok a few things.
#1 I have 2 degrees. 1 in Forest Resource Management. the 2md in Wildlife Biology.

So I can be your "timber guy" as well as your go to for environmental advice. I have taken extensive classes and research in forest land road construction and minimizing eco damage. The one legged 3 eyed tree sloth is pretty easy. There is a published list of endangered, protected, and listed species and their home habitat. If a species isnt even listed you are looking at a 5 year process to even get it on the radar. then 3 more before it is an issue.

As to the TU guys, unless we are in the mountains of WNC no trout to speaak of, and sicne this is private land they will have much less say so.

If it were strictly up to me all stream crossings would be done over culverts and all trails would be constructed with water bars, broad based dips, and silt runoffs from the get go. In other words, we would prevent harassment from the eco nazi by not causing eco damage. I am as much an environmentalist as anyone, and wouldnt wanna be part of something that knowingly and intentionally caused environmental damage. That said it is VERY possible to merge 4 wheeling fun with eco protection and sensitivity.

I would like to hear more thoughts on resale restrictions. Personally I wouldnt really care what you resale your share for. Once the club has raised their money, it wouldnt be hurting them, and I would hope that the endeavor would be so successful that there would not be a long line of people looking to sell out.
 
What about setting it up as a conglomerate of smaller tracts that are individually owned, but united by something like a homeowners association?

The bylaws could include provisions for trail construction, as well as any other nuances that would be required to make this a success. Ho A's have more power than they really should, but could offer the protection of private ownership. The common areas such as campgrounds and parking lots could be owned and maintained by the builder/developer, which would essentially be everyone who owns a tract.

Having individual owners would remove the worry of taxes on the group, and instead place it on the individuals. It would also encourage people to have more responsibility since it is "their land", and potentially encourage larger $$ interest since you would be buying property, not just "helping the club". Plus large enough tracts to be managed for forestry would be an incentive (20 acres?)

On the contrary, this would lead to higher property taxes for the owners of the smaller tracts, and the potential for other problems that couldn't be controlled by the hoa.
 
You can easily see how Ron and myself (SkiHik5) ended up talking for almost 2 hours. He's a very knowledgeable in many areas. As he indicated (and I agree) including environmental impact 'stuff' into any design would be key to its long term success.

IMHO - Selling a share wouldn't bother me a bit, the original buyer paid in the full price. If they sell it at a lesser value its his/her loss not the groups.. Hell, I'd like to think the value would increase not decrease or if the price was low enough that one would simply hang on to it.

IMHO - the multi use functions should be limited to no real property structures. Possibly a small shed or 2 and an outbuilding for storage of small items, tables/chairs etc..

The thing that keep these things clear for me is, I think about a few things. What happens to XYZ in 10 years? Would it add move (tax) value to the site? Would it require maintenance ? Could it be damaged/destroyed. Is it easily manged by 500 members?

When dealing with large groups of people its always best to find some minimum common ground (<-- pun).. Things like the initial mission statement would easily guide this extra stuff.
This land is being purchased for: Blah Blah Blah..

So things like primitive camping, hunting, tree management, easily fall in line with that. Garages and other complex stuff don't, not that I don't like that idea, i just don't think it would fit in the KISS model. (again IMHO if everyone voted for one I'd happily use it ) I think some basic things like a picnic shelter would be a good future project, and still maintain the rustic atmosphere...

Now that said - Whats to stop you (or 10-20 others) from picking up a nearby piece of land to build a garage or XYZ on ? Then you can build it anyway you like, pay for the elec. heat etc.. Then charge me to use it..

More good discussion...
 
Futbalfantic said:
I vote no garage garage=liablity
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A place to fix your heep didn't do Crawford any harm as far as I'm aware......

I'm in on the whole deal as long as the proper course is taken.
I voted $5000 not only from a wheeling perspective but from an investment point of view. Lets face it they ain't making no more land and if we can have a Paragon style park on our own doorstep thats good business in a lot of different ways....so count me in.
My 2cents would be to identify property or properties that have potential right now otherwise this thread may just generate nothing but good ideas and pipedreams for all of us. I think if there was a tangible goal to work towards you might find the idea taking off quicker than you think.
 
Brit-Bloke said:
My 2cents would be to identify property or properties that have potential right now otherwise this thread may just generate nothing but good ideas and pipedreams for all of us. I think if there was a tangible goal to work towards you might find the idea taking off quicker than you think.
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Ian, are you aware of anything that might be feasible or could you check it out? I know you were in real estate at one time.

I, personally, am looking for something like DPG with some trails. Looking for 50-200 acres in the $200-300k range. Preferably land that isn't suitable for other purposes due to terrain, rock structure, old quarries, cut timber, etc. How does one go about finding out of the way, distressed acreage for sale? Just contact a real estate broker? I've done quite a bit of searching on line with limited success.

I like Mike's KISS formula, at least at the start. The emphasis would be on a place to hang, ride and camp with ammenities to follow later.
 
mbalbritton said:
What kind of acreage are we talking here?
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Good question. I've never wheeled at Paragon but their website says they have 5500 acres. Any ideas as to how much land would be required to offer fun and challenging trails for the beginner, intermediate, and experienced drivers?
 
ok....how about this.
We hold a huge event somewhere like Playground, or the Farm.
We invite all clubs,individuals,sponsors,etc..
There are tons of things to do, rock race, mud pit, tug-o-war,
obsticle challenge,etc...
All events are judged/timed for official winners.
Winners are motivated by sponsor donated prizes.
There should be incentive for everyone to attend and participate.
A Huge raffle always makes money and is a crowd pleaser.
Serve great food. Keep overhead down by finding a food sponsor,so its all proffit.
Childrens games
Cater to everyone, from the big boys to the stockers.(once again, so everyone can compete)
There are tons of other ideas, that I have, and you guys probably have a few too.
This would be a great way to kick things off, once we decide to.All money raised will go to whatever is needed to ''get things rolling'' and most of all, to establish a fund for this endeavor.
I know this wont buy our land, but I bet will raise alot of awareness and money.
I can see it now.........can you?
Of course there will be alot to do just to pull this off, but when,not if, it is hugely successful, it will be a great start.
Kind of ''the commitment of the idea'' if you will.
I know this will work and have been wanting to help organize an event like this for a while. I think this is a wonderful ,worthwhile reason and would love to help make it happen.

There would have to be a huge effort by alot of folks, but we can do it!

What do yall think?:popcorn:

This may be jumping the gun a little, but, lets do it anyway.
 
It is hard to say about how much acrage is needed. Florida was so flat, that if you didnt have a large area of land you get real bored real quick. When i moved up here and went to Gulches i was amazed abotu how much they shoved into an 80 acre parcel. But still it is a palce that is usually a day trip i think i would get bored if i made a long 3 day weekend out of it. I would say between 200-500 acres would be good.

Setup a good system of trails, and even rotate trails every so often to let stuff grow back, and to keep it fresh. And a year or two between using sections oftrails will make it seem like it is a new trail.

As for a garage, there shouldnt be one on the property. This would be ideal for somebody to get a small parcel next to the park and open a campground or shop. Crawford is not actually in Tellico trails, he has the garage at his campground so it works fine for that.

But with maybe some raffles to get some $$$, private investors , business sponsorships it is doable.
 
Dylan W. said:
ok....how about this.
We hold a huge event somewhere like Playground, or the Farm.
We invite all clubs,individuals,sponsors,etc..
There are tons of things to do, rock race, mud pit, tug-o-war,
obsticle challenge,etc...
All events are judged/timed for official winners.
Winners are motivated by sponsor donated prizes.
There should be incentive for everyone to attend and participate.
A Huge raffle always makes money and is a crowd pleaser.
Serve great food. Keep overhead down by finding a food sponsor,so its all proffit.
Childrens games
Cater to everyone, from the big boys to the stockers.(once again, so everyone can compete)
There are tons of other ideas, that I have, and you guys probably have a few too.
This would be a great way to kick things off, once we decide to.All money raised will go to whatever is needed to ''get things rolling'' and most of all, to establish a fund for this endeavor.
I know this wont buy our land, but I bet will get raise alot of awareness and money.
I can see it now.........can you?
Of course there will be alot to do just to pull this off, but when,not if, it is hugely successful, it will be a great start.
Kind of ''the commitment of the idea'' if you will.
I know this will work and have been wanting to help organize an event like this for a while. I think this is a wonderful ,worthwhile reason and would love to help make it happen.
There would have to be a huge effort by alot of folks, but we can do it!
What do yall think?:popcorn:
This may be jumping the gun a little, but, lets do it anyway.
Click to expand...

Dylan,
you are reading my mail.
I had this exact conversation with Mike the other night.
A huge blast off event to raise money and have a brief (10-15 minute) info session before the raffle. Basically put it out there what we are doing and have a time place already picked out for the "meeting" to be held a week or so later.

Plus the income generated would start the fund.

Even if it was say $1,000. We at least then would have 1k in the bank to build on. It shows a start.

Pm sent...
 
I'll just repeat my question.

Would this be 4x4 only? Or since we'd be joint owners in the property, anything goes?

People have mentioned, hunting, camping, fishing.

What about ATVs? dirtbikes? mtbikes? Horses?

Are all these different user groups going to get along? Seems like you'll have to have rules out the wazoo like a HOA.

I like the general concept of pooling money to buy some land for recreation purposes. Devil's in the details.
 
how long would we have access to the land?


I wouldn't mind investing money as long as I KNOW my guests(with me) and I will have acess. the place would need caretakers to help keep the place clean. there will always be the "land abusers" and "eco-terrorists" to protect it from.(not refering to responsiable wheelers)
 
BoltOnJohn said:
I'll just repeat my question.
Would this be 4x4 only? Or since we'd be joint owners in the property, anything goes?
People have mentioned, hunting, camping, fishing.
What about ATVs? dirtbikes? mtbikes? Horses?
Are all these different user groups going to get along? Seems like you'll have to have rules out the wazoo like a HOA.
I like the general concept of pooling money to buy some land for recreation purposes. Devil's in the details.
Click to expand...

I would vote for 4x4 only, street sized truck type vehicles. I would not want horses or mtn bikes around and I personally would vote against ATVs but could tolerate them if voted in by the membership. Camping seems to come with the type of thing we do but I would definately be against hunting. As an ower I would want access ANY time I wanted to use the property and without threat of being shot!

badog said:
how long would we have access to the land?
I wouldn't mind investing money as long as I KNOW my guests(with me) and I will have acess. the place would need caretakers to help keep the place clean. there will always be the "land abusers" and "eco-terrorists" to protect it from.(not refering to responsiable wheelers)
Click to expand...

As "owners" we would have access until the time the property was sold to someone else. Definately need someone around the area, that's whay I would like it close enough to me to be able to help in that regard.

Personally, at first blush, I do not care for the Rah Rah Raffle idea. Too commercial and inclusive for me. My thinking is to use the means we have at hand to find 50-100 interested individuals who would put up $2-5k for a serious, private 4x4 park venture. Not try to entice each and every NC4x4er and other board user to invest $500 each.
 
CYJKrawler said:
My thinking is to use the means we have at hand to find 50-100 interested individuals who would put up $2-5k for a serious, private 4x4 park venture. Not try to entice each and every NC4x4er and other board user to invest $500 each.
Click to expand...

as far from feasible as that is for me, that's probably the most sensible theory for this yet... IMHO.
 
kaiser715 said:
One thing that would have to happen - at least at first - is restrictions on resales of shares.

For example, somebody, due to family, etc, job move out of the area, etc, needs to get out of his investment...he can't afford to leave $1000 tied up in something he'll never use. .
Click to expand...

I would think that anyone worried about loosing the 1000-5000 if they had to move and could not use it. Should not be particpating in this sport.

For example you buy a $2000 jeep and put $1500 more into mods it to wheel it. Then you rolled it hard and you can mabe get $800 out of it. you just lost 1800. do you now quit the sport?? Well maybe or you take what is left and build a Bad ass buggy and put maybe another $5000 into it. and it goes on and on.

The person who would want to give up their Shares would have to give them up at the price of what they paid in or at the current going price whatever that may be.
 
I am interested in seeing this through fruition, however speaking for at least some of the broke college students on this board the most $$ I can spare at any given time is likely to be around $100. I know this is thing is heading towards the guys who can invest the $5k (+/-) but what if say the guys who drop say a $100 a year can ride on the weekends (Sat/Sun only)? I just think what this idea needs is capital and we shouldn't be pushing away the smaller guys. Money is money, it adds up. Just my .02
 
Remember as we all read and reply to these posts that this is ONLY a discussion of "what if". This is not actually a feasibility study yet. Everyone on this board is welcome to voice their thoughts and ALL thoughts are valid!

As far as those like mbalbritton and boonewheeler who have little or no investment capital at this time. That dosen't mean you could never ride at this venue. It also dosen't mean you could never be a "share" owner. I never got in on the Food Lion stock bonanza either :)

As far as getting out of the "investment group", my thoughts are, you would have to sell your share to whoever would buy it at whatever price you could get. Depending on the success of the venture, the "investment group" might buy the share back or one of the individual investors might want more than one share (= vote?). It's not that you would necessarily lose money, it's just that you might have $2-5k tied up in something you never use, kinda like those old Fairfield timeshares in Timbuktu! On the other hand, how many of us have been to Paragon, Attica or Crozet to wheel? How many times have you been? Sure would be nice if I had part ownership in something like that where I only had to drive an hour or two instead of 10!
 
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