pay to play?

Reid

Reid

Hasnt Seen Dirt in Years
Joined
Dec 30, 2005
Location
Winston Salem
With all the worry of ORVs closing the thought of a Private ORV seems to sound better and better.

with 4328 members on NC4x4 if everyone gave just $25.00 thats over $100k. That kinda money will go pretty far considering we dont need prime realestate. Lol, infact...we probably wont the most in accessible remote hollar we could find.

I know not everyone on the memberlist is active, or would even be willing to donate the $25.00. I know i would be willing to kick in as much as i could scrape together.

No lifetime passes, nothing special. just donate what you can and in return you would get the pride of knowing you had a hand in starting something for everyone now and in the future.

Just like URE, charge $5.00 a day to pay for maintaining the property and paying taxes. If 20 people show up every weekend and its open year round, thats $10,400. Not to mention set up a fund where members can donate year round. i could pony up $25 dollars a year to play.

NC4x4 could host and anual event like the URE rockrace and send proceeds to its charity of choice, poor kids, or the antartcic field mouse fund. Give back to the environment to keep the enviromentalist off our backs and give fourwheeling a good name.

Ive seen you guys haul in rocks and things and make gardens in your back yards or run a bobcat to cut a trail on your farmland. The resources and knowledge to do is abundant here.

I think this idea got tosses around before but as active as the greenies are getting i think its time get serious about this. a privately owned NC4x4 ORV park doesnt seem to be that far out of our reach.


very open to thoughts. i want to see if we can make something happen.
 
I'm down 100%... The issue is finding someone to handle all that cash who is trustworthy.
 
This is a great idea. As far as handling the monies goes, I wonder if a major bank would work with us? They are already set up to take payments & such. Money would gain interest as well. Also as far as the land needed goes, the worst land out there the type that would be hardest to develop would be the cheapest. Swampy rocky hilly, hey as long as there isn't toxic waste there.
 
good point, the land we would want is usually the most crappy..
 
Reid.... this has come up a thousand times.
Did you see teh massive discussions abou ta group land buy about 9 months ago; sat in the Land Issues section circulating quite awhile?

In teh end, teh math just dosn't add up.
Problem #1. Of the 4,000 members, you'll actually get $ from 25% max. That's only 1,000 people.
That $10,400 you mention wouldn't be a drop in the bucket of covering the costs of maintaining such a place. I bet the taxes alone would eat a big chunk of that. Even if there were no taxes, what do you think the insurance rates on this are? I'd gander $10kyear wouldn't come close.
Then you have the problem of who's in charge, who makes decisions, etc... if 1,000 people pay in, then guess what, 1,000 people want a vote on how it's run.

I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying it'll cost a whole lot more than your numbers reflect. Why do you think all the private ORV parks are so much more pricy?

I'll tell you what. You spearhead the movement. When you have it al lfigured out and down to everything set up, I'll listen then.
 
If / when we ever really get moving on this the concept will probably be similar to an Elks Club membership. They come together / own property / land, etc.

I suspect we will see this happen at some time, timing will be the biggest thing. The right property / folks ready to put up cash, etc.

On the FLIP side of this, we already have Gulches down in SC (they could use some volunteers), and even closer to home is DPG, The Farm, etc?

In fact if you write down every place to ride within 6 hours of central NC, I bet most of us on here don't hit them all in a given year. (There are exceptions who wheel all the freaking time and make the rest of us look like the web wheelers that we really are)

But yes, I would be interested.. and as always, willing to help coordinate the money side.
 
Yes, this has been kicked around.
I remember me and Mike Yager having an hour+ phone conversation back around December.

*I think* the only model that is feasible is the 50-100 member each donating 5k-10k and being "share holders".
*I think* for it to survive it would have to be run as a business and prove self sustaining very shortly. People will give once, they wont give large annually.

One thing to keep in mind, as a minimum you are going to need 50 acres. Thats tight. And with crap land bringing 4k/acre these days, its either going to be very remote (not very convenient) or very expensive.

Swamp/wetlands are a big no no and need to be avoided.
Such a club needs an environmental guy, preferably multiple.
Logging and timber growth could off set some costs, but unavoidably hunting, fishing and camping access comes up very quick in the discussion.

I would be interested again in walking down this path with whomever is interested, as I have done much of the research and was fairly close to bringing an idea out of the ground ~2 year ago, until the land fell through and then subsequently investors dropped like flies....I have a folder in the file cabinet with lawyers, CPAs, and gov't officials info and recomendations, BMPs etc.

Im going to bed but will keep an eye on this....
 
For those who couldn't afford to give such a large amount up front, I would personally like to see an area where you could pay for individual rides on certain dates of the said "shareholder" land. I think that DPG is great, especially since it's so close to home, but I think a lot of people don't come out because of the size... hence it being a "playground".
 
Well, sounds like the first thing that needs to happen is to have someone set up a bank account or some other type of deal, maybe paypal, and for people to start donating money.

I think the biggest thing to realize is this wont happen over night. Keep holding fundraisers, keep taking donations, keep spreading the word.

Dave, i respect your opinion alot, i consider youto be alot smarter then me and thats saying alot! I have read and read the "private ORV" threads. The only way to keep an idea alive is to keep it in front of peoples eyes. I made that post with about 3 minutes of fore thought. If you or SkyHi know the actual numbers it will take please post up!

Lets keep this thread here in General cause lets face it, no one uses the Land Issues Section.


Has there been any money raised? I know at one time a couple of people (SkyHi may have been one of them) was talking about throwing down some big bucks.

I liked the Elks Club analogy. A small not for profitt entity would probably be the best route to go tax wise. I think just getting a 501c designation would save alot of money.

What are the real world costs after the land has been purchased?

What are the road blocks from a legal point of view?

Who would you trust to handle the money?

Would you be willing to volunteer at fundraisers?

How long do you think/are you willing to wait for this to come to fruition?

IF we could set up a paypal account (that transfered into a bank account to draw intrest) donations would not be limited to NC4x4. We could get people from Pirate, and other big 4x4 sites who have wheelers in the region.

Has anyone contacted ARRA or SFWD assoc?

Does anyone have any contacts with a manufacturer that may want to sponser or donate?

Are you guys willing to have "billboards" for product placement of susch sponsers?
 
336wheeler said:
For those who couldn't afford to give such a large amount up front, I would personally like to see an area where you could pay for individual rides on certain dates of the said "shareholder" land. I think that DPG is great, especially since it's so close to home, but I think a lot of people don't come out because of the size... hence it being a "playground".
Click to expand...

Personally I prefer places like DPG/The Farm where it is a smaller local with everything right there.

One because my junk never runs long and its nice to have the truck and trailer within a very short walking distance with all the tools.

Two, smaller more grouped together playgrounds are much more spectator friendly, the money is in the spectators, not the wheelers/competitors, yes you need them to bring in the crowds, but they don't ultimately pay the bills.
 
Okay, you are right NCJeepin....the hard part is getting someone to handle the money. Who are the treasurers for Carolina Trail Blazers, Big Dixie Boggers, and CNC? Who's has a good track record with handling money for any of the big clubs related to NC4x4?


By the way...here is a good place to keep an eye on

http://www.arra-access.com/arra/home.html
 
jrraw23 said:
Personally I prefer places like DPG/The Farm where it is a smaller local with everything right there.
smaller more grouped together playgrounds are much more spectator friendly, the money is in the spectators, not the wheelers/competitors, yes you need them to bring in the crowds, but they don't ultimately pay the bills.
Click to expand...

Very good points Ricky. On your average day to day wheeling, spectating is not a money generator, but if we were to hold events like happened at the URE 4x4 cross then yes, spectators become a VERY large part of the picture! so do concessions for that matter.

I small area with obsticles near by can be worked as evidenced by DPG. I dont know the deal with the ownership/use of the DPG but it seems to be that anytime your riding area is owned by an outside party your access is always in jeopardy.

I have never been to the farm and can't recall (maybe i missed it) ever seeing an invite there. Thats kinda my point though, invite only. I'm looking to get the ball rolling on a place you can show up on a weekend, or a wednesday moring for that matter and not have to worry about whether you were invited or what club you belong too.


Does anyone know the acreage of the DPG?
 
SkyHiK5 said:
Im going to bed but will keep an eye on this....
Click to expand...

Wimp! Not even midnight yet :flipoff2:

BigRedB2 said:
Well, sounds like the first thing that needs to happen is to have someone set up a bank account or some other type of deal, maybe paypal, and for people to start donating money.
Click to expand...

I really don't know too much about the actual numbers, I haven't done that level of research on it. Otehrs here have, though.
What I have to contribute is my insight on people's behavior, and that'd what I think you may be overlooking here.
My concern is that you don't have a detailed plan, and yet you are already talking about getting people to throw money in. The truth is, you just can't raise any significant coin that way - at the very least until you have a very detailed proposal to convince folks. Even with just small $5 donations - people are tightwads and aren't going to just fork over cash right now. Hell, look at the insanity we have in the For Sale sections, being bickering and scoffing over very small bits of money and things that already are pretty good deals.
All I'm saying is that befoe you even think about asking anybody for a dime, you'd better have something to tell them. Otherwise you'll just be xrushed wit hquestions like, "Why do you need my $20 now? What are you going to do with it? Is this just going into your pocket? Who teh hell are you? How can I have any faith thsi will work?"

Remember the whole ordeal when the Amercian Wheeler/ 4x4Cross thing popped up? Now, case in point - it DID get pulled off, so there is hope!

As Ron said, the only model that seems sustainable is with a group of heavy investors, lets call it the Elk Lodge model. i do like your widespread grassroots approach - just hard to make the math work, and to overcome teh initia involved with so many people.

That said.... you might be able to do it as a 2-tiered process. Make the plan to set up as the Elk Lodge model, say that you are looking for heavy investors to be "partners" or whatever. However, this can be the model for long-term sustainability. JUST for the startup, go for the widespread appeal - ask folks for a 1-time donation to get it going. Say, flat out, "we have a group who will do this, but we need to get over some of the initial hump... and your $5-20 now will do it. And, if YOU want to be a heavy investor, contact this number...".

Really, the problem is that if you ask people for more than a couple of bucks, they want tsomething in return. However if the amount is small enough, then you can get away on their sense of "helping out a good cause"... but only if they see it as chump change.
 
BigRedB2 said:
I'm looking to get the ball rolling on a place you can show up on a weekend, or a wednesday moring for that matter and not have to worry about whether you were invited or what club you belong too.
Click to expand...

If that's really what you're aiming for (sights pretty high) then your best resource will be the few private parks that are like this already (e.g., Rausch Creek, Gulches?).
That takes manpower.
 
very valid and useful points Dave. Keep the thoughts rolling.

Lol, Dr...hang on to your cash, maybe you can be majority share holder in an elks model type deal.

I will wait and see what Skyhi has to say tommorrow and maybe this weekend i'll do some brainstorming. Perhaps there are some grants and things we can take advantage of as well.

anyone here speak legalese?
 
Finding some property that had some rugged terrain for trails and then a field for artificial obstacles. with road frontage & parking would be ideal.

I tend to think something like this might have more of a chance for success if local government was involved ...multi-use grants, tax incentives, etc.

Personally, if I could find a plot with terrain like DPG within 60 miles of raleigh, i'd be all over it.

...one things for certain, you'd need to have strict rules regarding vehicle noise.
 
Some people have made mention of this but you need to know they closed 3 private parks in TN last year. Everyone thinks private is the way to go now. Not necessarily. On top of having a good business plan you better have an even better environmental plan. You also have to worry about neighbors complaining about noise levels.

I don't mean to be the wet blanket but you need to keep these ideas at the forefront or you'll surely fail. It takes a lot of maintenance and time to keep a place and running. Silt traps, silt fencing, broad based dips in trails and other techniques have to be used. Then you've got to have access to heavy equipment.

Just my $.02
 
I think to make this work, there has to be a plan.
A legal plan.....to lay out plain what we would need as far as a tax situation and so on. I know some nonprofit organizations such as a Church don't pay taxes. I am not sure what the Elks model is all about.
How to deal with liability. What to do as far as does everyone that comes have to be a member or???
A play plan. Any land found would most likely have to be paid for. If someone started a foundation to start collecting moneys it would get the ball rolling. I think something that was set up where as if it didn't get off the ground and land purchased with X amount of time, the contributors would get their money back. More or less the money would sit in a bank account until land was found, and a deal made. We would need a couple of trust worthy guys to volunteer to over see this money. I know of a few I would trust to get this done right and over see it.
Have nomination of say five people to make the decision of yes, this is the land we want.
or No, this won't work. Anyone could recommend a piece of property.
We could accept donations from individuals, as well as clubs, businesses, or individuals.
Fund raisers could be set up by existing groups to raise money. ie open rides, car shows, Jeep shows, Toyota shows, Crawler shows and what not.
We could solicit from other groups, not just NC4X4. Many four wheel drive boards out here in net land that would be interested.
If this was set up as a non profit type thing, that means all moneys over and above the actual operating costs would go back into the property in the form of always improving trails, camping facility's, parking, germinate structures and so on.

All I am saying is if a plan, and a model is set up, it would gives us all something to shoot for.

I can see it now. EBAY add
For sale: Opportunity to be on ground level of private land to fourwheel on.
Starting bid $5.00
all bids accepted,
You will receive a certificate of contribution.

Just a few thoughts.
 
Not to rain on what your trying to do at all but to be honest at this juncture do we really need another private park in NC? There's already a ton to do within a fair distance, I mean for example I have done like 4 or 5 events in the last couple months and have had to skip more than 3 because I don't have a job to pay for the gas $$ to haul it out there. Plus there is literally 6 or 7 events in August, other than this weekend it looks like I'm gonna be at events every weekend this month and will have to skip 2 or 3 other events because of too many things at once.

There's just so much to offer around here wheeling wise and not a huge necessity for another offroad park. Granted if you still wanna do it im not gonna complain, and will probably help if I can, I'm just saying its gonna be a logistic nightmare when theres plenty to do round here already, IMO.
 
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