pay to play?

BigRedB2 said:
If collect and nothing pans out, We'll take the money and throw a hell of a party at the stables or something! :beer: :huggy:
Click to expand...
All hope of anyone taking you seriously has just drifted away like a fart in the wind.

I myself would be very interested in a new park but to really get me going and engaged in any conversation/discussion I would, at a bare minimum, have to see a proposed budget/finance, requirements for the land/park to be purchased, who else has made a major contribution, who will be controlling the funds, why that person/people should control the funds and then finally my funds would only be donated/invested on the grounds that all required erosion/enviornmental guidelines would be met and if not my money is out of the whole deal. I am sure plenty of others are on the same thought process as myself but just don't want to even get involved in the conversation at this time. I wasn't going to but I had to comment.
 
Richard Childress has credibility and funds you have neither....thats not an attack on you a statement of fact to the general public.

If you raise cash, and then someone comlains about your progress/direction/lack there of you have to step away from your intended direction to defend yourself from the attack
 
marvilusone said:
at a bare minimum, have to see a proposed budget/finance, requirements for the land/park to be purchased, who else has made a major contribution, who will be controlling the funds, why that person/people should control the funds
Click to expand...

You wouldnt want to see $50k raised through small donations before anyone was even asked to donate a large amount? I totally agree with you on finding someone everyone can agree on to handle the money.


SkyHiK5 said:
Richard Childress has credibility and funds you have neither....thats not an attack on you a statement of fact to the general public.

If you raise cash, and then someone comlains about your progress/direction/lack there of you have to step away from your intended direction to defend yourself from the attack
Click to expand...

I dont take offense at all. In no way do i think i am the person to in charge of this project. I will do what i can to get the wagon moving, but the reins are better off in someone elses hands. If i start the Org and website, if i pay the domain registration and corperate filings, is there enough support that some one may be willing to work with any of these ideas?


the "party" idea was not serious. but...if there is not enough support after a grass roots small donations campaign has been started....the donors are going to want something for there $20 bucks or what ever they donated. a 4x4cross, a mud drag, hell...throw a concert, i dont care. I hope the idea takes hold and that discussion really does need to be had!


Ive got a feeling most of you are out no matter how credible i am or what i bring to the table unless its full financial coverage.

Using this thread as a feeler gauge for how the idea is going to go over else where, i dont think anyone is going to want the responsibility of taking control, or the burden of having to donate. And i can understand that, its a big risk. Coming from someone who doesnt have much to donate other my time and resources i cant really sit here and pass judgement on people who arent willing to put up the money so dont assume im being condescending when i say that.

With the level of trust (or lack there of) it sounds like this is better off with a single investor. I dont think thats going to happen.

lol, im glad this discussion had more replies than my "light bulb for sale" thread. I know there are folks out there who are serious about this idea.

The fact that you guys are so critical and hard on a young guy trying to brain storm isnt a bad thing, no hard feelings towards any of you guys. It just shows how serious you guys take this idea and reflects upon the effort you guys have already put in.

I guess we are left still waiting on the right circumstances.

lol, nextime i'm working for childress...maybe i'll hit em up. lol, after all, he did raise $5 mill that nite...surely he can spare a couple hundred grand!
 
Just a bit of useful info before i shut up on this topic.



the National Private Off-Highway Vehicle Parks Association.

The National OHV Conservation Council (NOHVCC)

The National OHV Program Managers


AND...In Illinois the State GIVES you money to start and OHV (maybe we can get something started similar in NC)
http://dnr.state.il.us/legislation/consrv/assistedsites.htm

Polaris also gives Grants to private OHVs $270,000 a year
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2006_April_24/ai_n16132050

So Does Yamaha
http://www.atvmagonline.com/output.cfm?id=1571257

Want some Federal money to line your OHV pockets?
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/stanislaus/projects/ohv-grants/index.shtml

and...hate the DENR? what if they are helping fund your ORV?
http://www.outdoorcentral.com/outdo...off-road-vehicle-grant-applications-available

and finally, a house bill that sets up and ORV trust fund in NC that may have some money for your private ORV
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/sessions/2007/bills/house/pdf/h2008v1.pdf


Thats Pretty much all i have in my notes that i dont think anyone has touched on in this thread.

I sent some emails out thurs and friday to some ORV friendly organizations requesting any helpful info, im not really expecting much back that we dont already know but anything useful pops up, i dig this thread back up.
 
well from what was said in the many other times this has been discussed, it all is based on sooo many ideas and people, and one of the biggest issues was LOCATION...

I know that I, nor too many others, would pay in big bucks for something that was 3+ hrs away or so (given that we had the $$)...

also, buying land might not be the best option... someone mentioned hunters previously... so maybe look into leasing property like hunters do... but you really cant do both on the same piece... and you want to make sure that the land owner is ok with what you are doing...

if you figure out all the logistics for the land and what not, then you are talking about having to pay people to man and secure the place all the time... It takes alot of bodies to put on an event, or even just keep it running day-to-day
 
Somewhere out there is a man with 200-500 acres, who, in this dying age of agriculture in America, is looking for a way out. He likes people like us, not those damn developers from the city. We just have to find him before the developers get there. And that is the only chance of this working.
 
Before it gets locked, I'll put in my .02

I'd be in if we could get a decent idea going...

This idea is feasable, but it will take time and money as said before.

But, theres no reason to re-invent the wheel. The structure already exists but in other markets. In Hickory (or Hickory area), there is a wildlife club (Catawba Valley Wildlife Club I think) that my father is a member of. They have hundreds of acres (if not, thousands) and are looking into another 300+ acre purchase. They have trap shooting, skeet shooting, rifle range, archery range, club house, storage, equipment for land maintenance, etc. etc. They also host multiple events throughout the year for fund raising, etc. etc.

I'm sure the insurance would be just as high, if not higher, than what would be required for and ORV park. The members pay an annual membership and have a REQUIRED work weekend several times a year.

A look into this club's model and how they came to be and maintain a place to play may shed some more light on the feasability of this whole idea.
 
There is no reason to lock the thread at this time.

This general discussion is good as it helps everyone to see just how small of a group there is that care about the long term outlook of the hobby/sport.
 
Here's a new .02 since my last .02 last time this came up with a different more realistic approach. (Edited since lunch 8-4-08)

There's Private areas all over the place that are leasing out for ATV use. All of them private lands and leased by many users. And the ones I know of in Eastern NC HAVE to be coming out ahead considering the number of leasers. Most prices I've seen for 200+ AC tracts is around $150 for a year pass per vehicle. I talked to a guy the other day that leases a tract that alot of kids ride and he has alot of kids. If he goes 3 times is worth his $50 a trip to turn his kids loose on 4 wheelers without worrying about having to go pick them up at the Police Department.
Exact same goes for horse owners as well. I know a tract that is strictly for equestrian use. And same goes for hunting lands. Don't know details of any of them though?
But of all the lease lands I know of there is only one to three names on the dotted line at the bottom of every deed of all of these set up in a trust fund or LLC or such. And all are advertised by word of mouth.

Makes more sense to me for three of the more serious individuals to purchase these lands and lease them out. $500 per acre is not unheard of and there's still a few 200-300 Ac tracts available that I know of.

Break it down to 3 investors would be an extremely round about figure as follows:
300 AC @ $500 per AC = $150,000
$50,000 investment per partner @ 6% for 30 years would be-
$3,600 per year mortgage payment per partner = $300 a month
Land taxes in remote areas would likely be around $5,000 to $8,000 a year on 300 acres? Just guessing using my smaller tract of land as an example and figuring a lower rate.

Then comes the payback:
First 200 members @ $150 a year = $30,000.
I'd guess 200 members at all times after initial startup on the safe side.
That brings a payback of around $3,700 a year / $300 a month per investor after taxes and all. $300 a month in your pocket just for sticking $50,000 into an investment. Probably a guarantee after the 3'rd year. Where else can you get a 7% payback with that kind of money? Two investors could probably do the same and still come out ahead?
After 30 years there's around $10,000 a year / $800 a month payback per investor before taxes. 15%+ payback...

Lands to ride on is disappearing faster than opening up. Think of it as an investment. I bet if you look at numbers from 5 years ago, there's 3 times fold the individuals willing to lease private land to ride on. And the possibility of that number multiplying over the next 30 years is a guarantee.
 
$500/ acre land?

Not trying to throttle this down, but where?
I havent seen that anywhere in NC in the last 18-24 months. SC is a different story but most of you guyss arent intersted in SC.

Also the hunt club lease model wont work well, because most hunt clubs lease their land from timber companies, and frankly the timber companies dont want us in there.
In one club I am in we subject to fines of $500 per tree that is damaged. And they consider a bark scrape in excess of 6" to be damage. Hell Id file bankruptcy after one run....
 
A good model.

Brushy MT. Motorsports is a good example to look at as a business. I've also kicked this idea around to some friends with the same replies (Group Investment senerio). Still Brushy is a viable good example. 1500 plus acres 45-50 or so miles of trails, nobody get prematurely excited, ATV MOTORCYCLE only. Still I've had several conversations with the owner. He's had a substantial investment-approx. 1 mil.. He has to get approved every trail that is maintained and used with a land use organization of some type, high insurance, manditory sound regulations, and he closes after any significant weather. Anybody still interested! He'll also tell you that moneys stays tight and maintenace is non stop. Twenty dollars a day with full restroom facilities an office and fresh cooked food is also available. Even so he still has a hard time competing with Brown Mt. and the "cheap" fees related to riding at that location. What makes this ironic is I used to along with several others enjoy this same area every weekend in trucks or on bikes for free and I'll gladly pay 20 dollars to keep doing it. I personally would love to find the right investor partnership, I believe a smaller private party enterprise is viable. I also know from my other love Racing/Trailriding dirtbikes that Four Wheeling will become private or very regulated (public ORV areas) to survive.
 
Jeremy, if you know of some land for $500/acre I'd be willing to buy at least 200 acres...

I haven't seen it less than $800/acre and thats on a tract of 2500 acres
 
Rob, how far out you willing to go? What are the limits? West Virginia is $500 per acre all day long but it takes willingness to jump fast and a good eye out to find it any closer.
http://westvirginia.acreage.com

I'll keep an eye open but to find it cheap usually means there's a heck of a drive. I hear about it for sale every now and then more towards South Western Virginia or even parts of Tennessee. But after doing some searching, I guess it is safer to say that land is still available for $2000 an acre in these parts...:shaking:

I found this land that I thought was ideal last year and posted. Some might remember. I don't know status but I'd say it's SOLD. It was around $1,500 an acre and right off the Interstate. I thought it was perfect! :huggy:
http://billythephonefreak.com/realestateinfo/Tennessee/fodderstack.htm

NC is going to have tuffer standards than Tennessee. Virginia will be even tuffer than NC. But West Virginia was made for off roading!
 
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