Reid
Hasnt Seen Dirt in Years
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2005
- Location
- Winston Salem
pay to play?
- Thread starter Reid
- Start date
Macdaddy4738
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2005
I think alot of it has to do with the size of our sport too.
Thats why the majority of the private parks are also open to ATV's and dirt bikes, because with just ORV's...the community just isnt large enough to sustain the park.
Thats why the majority of the private parks are also open to ATV's and dirt bikes, because with just ORV's...the community just isnt large enough to sustain the park.
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2005
- Location
- Greensboro, NC
Go back and read the bazillion posts in the other threads, you'll believe it.
NCORP, North Carolina Off Road Park, incorp, get it
Actually you're behind the curve on the private land discussion, happened several times before.
It hasn't even got started yet! If this thread is allowed to continue it'll get much worse.
i see why this idea is doomed now.
Not doomed, just more work than most everyday wheelers have to invest in it. Between work, school, family and working on rigs most people don't have the time to devote to a project that will take enormous amounts of money, time, knowledge, patience, cooperation, etc. Problem is after 60 years you get somewhat jaded about the whole "let's start a band and be famous" idea. I say go for it. I'll even help but if you do pull it off I'll still pay you double to wheel there
Reid
Hasnt Seen Dirt in Years
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2005
- Location
- Winston Salem
okay...buried in there was some forward movement, NCORP has a nice ring to it...and its pretty self explanitory.
anyone else?
anyone else?
Macdaddy4738
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2005
As I said before.....
Roughshod
Some assembly required.
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2005
- Location
- Locust, NC
You're so far off base with your wild assumptions there that it makes me wonder if you have any grasp of reality at all. Behind the curve? Maybe the last year I spent looking for a decent plot of land for an ORV park was wasted. Maybe the time I spent creating a business plan was just dumb. Oh wait, I was seriously pursuing it instead of wildly pontificating on the internet. Just because you just came up with this idea don't make the assumption that other people aren't way ahead of you. This thread is a great example of what happens when you try to work things out in public; know nothing people such as yourself jump in and get all self righteous on you. The exact same thing happened with American Wheeler and the rock race. I had the audacity to work on an ORV park project on my own without consulting you or anyone else on this site, so shame on me. But please, don't let me change your mind. Feel free to carry on with your condescending notions about what's wrong with the rest of us.
I can't believe how little support for this idea there really is.
Maybe i'm ahead of the curve here, but there is going to come a time when there are no public places to wheel.
I try to rekindle and idea that is beneficial to everyone and i get met with insults and negativity. I'm not usually one to whine on the internet about being hazed or picked on, hell, im usually one of the ones do in it.
Reading about all the trail closures and enviro nazi's winning cases every day, the feeling i get from your reactions to this is like watching someone pick a bad line over and obsticle, you try to tell them but they are hell bent on landing on their lid.
it's cool, i can take it. in 10 years, i wont say i told ya so, im not that kind of guy. lol, just dont get mad if i charge you double to wheel on my land
Alright, enough whining.
Ive figured out that i need to file articles of incorperation and to do that i need a name.
Can we all lay the negativity aside, and take baby steps. No one has asked for money yet so no need to argue over how its spent or who has control.
We may need to choose a few names cause i am going to have to check with the Sec of State to see whats available.
RatLabGuy
You look like a monkey and smell like one too
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Location
- Churchville, MD
^^^
Please don't use all of it, I'm sure there will be a need for more later
Please don't use all of it, I'm sure there will be a need for more later
YJCREEPER
New Member
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2008
- Location
- Laurens, South Carolina
Everybody has dreams but only a few have the commitment to follow through on those dreams to make them a reality!! Its hard enough to get a group of 10 people to decide to agree to eat at one place, let alone get 50 or so people to decide on how to run a bussiness. I think one of the first things that needs to be done is talk to someone and get there input from someone who has actually done this!!! Case in point would be someone like Skip(owns Gulches). I know hes told me that in over two years hes headed in the right direction! He had to give up his job, His wife worked two jobs( Now thats a loving wife!!!!!), and wouldnt be nowhere where he is now if it wasnt for all the help for volunteers and donations to make the park better! Not counting all the time he commits to the park! I couldnt even comprehend what the insurance would be for that place. Im not knocking anybody for having the dream of wanting a great ORVP close to home( lucky me--->Gulches 15 minutes away ) but it takes more then saying lets get some money together and go buy 200 acres and wheel when we want to! In the society we live in today there has to be rules and guidelines that have to be met and followed! And like I said in the beginning of the post I find it very hard to get 50 or so people to decide on a certain place and how it should be run! I could see maybe 4 or 5 people coming together and making something like this work but never the amount that has been talked about in earlier post. Dont mean to dampen anyones spirits or anything but just thought I would through my 2 cents in!!
) but it takes more then saying lets get some money together and go buy 200 acres and wheel when we want to! In the society we live in today there has to be rules and guidelines that have to be met and followed! And like I said in the beginning of the post I find it very hard to get 50 or so people to decide on a certain place and how it should be run! I could see maybe 4 or 5 people coming together and making something like this work but never the amount that has been talked about in earlier post. Dont mean to dampen anyones spirits or anything but just thought I would through my 2 cents in!!
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2005
- Location
- Sharon, SC
Damn what a nap!
Ok, here are my thoughts.
(Dave where are you, who is the wimp now?)
[This is all my opinion, and while factual data and research is included it will presented the same way I would sell it to anyone. I.E. Nothing here I would consider to be set in stone but rather my beliefs]
Just like any business venture you need start up capital. Venture Capital is going to come from and only from fellow enthusiasts. With this type of deal, there will be no Angel Capitol. Forget about it, dont dream, Angels with Cash are pursuing Silicon Chips and green energy...
So we need start up cash. First step is we need investors and a game plan. I'm glad someone wants to chip in $20 and that will help, in time, but for now this is big boy money talk. You need a group of 5-20 people who are truly willing to drop some coin. Then you need to get this group together. Honestly you probably all need to go wheeling together for a week, and weed out one or two personalities that will not mesh, inevitably they are always there and this whole deal has 10x more likelyhood of failing than succeeding anyway, we dont need any internal parasites. At this point lets say we have 10 solid investors.
These 10 need to hash out what their target contribuiton is. Again guys, the 1k/acre land has probably sailed for NC. I can still find a bit in SC, but its sandhills and not ideal wheeling terrain. Anyway at that point figure out an investment goal, then do a feasbility review.
Ok we have 10 guys who have $5,000, we have $50,000 lets call it a day we aint got the cash. Or we have 20 guys with $15,000 we have $300,000 lets take a look and see for example what is available...ok maybe that will work.
At this point we know who our principals are, and we know our budget. Next steps, set investment criteria and sure up capital.
Face it the coin we are talking about is not laying under the sofa (at least not at my house) and when that dream tract does come up, we dont have 2 or 3 months to get our funds together. So everyone goes about and raises their money (if you are borrowing, you need to go ahead and close the loan and place the money in your personal bank account. This way there is no risk of anyone walking with all the cash, and I would personally recommend an N-1.5 investment max. In other words, someone will back out or fall apart and something may come up. (For example if you have 20guys who plan on raising 15k each I would set a real limit of $277,500)
Now its time for another meeting (hey at least we are drinking a lot of beer after these things) and we need to iron out hard and fast requirements, deal killers and then a list of likes.
I.E. it must be at least 100 acres, not within 100yards of a house and it would be nice if there were no creeks on the property. Then the search begins, and here is where your multiple people help. Each investor contacts a separate land/timber buyers agent and puts their ears up. At this point its time to sit and wait on a tract to show up, and everyone keep your hands out of your own cookie jar (that money you set aside)
Ok once land is found agreed on secured and purchased, the easy part is done. (we are still probably 6-12 months from the first wheeling outing)
Again Im tired of hunt and peck typing Ill contribute more later
Ok, here are my thoughts.
(Dave where are you, who is the wimp now?)
[This is all my opinion, and while factual data and research is included it will presented the same way I would sell it to anyone. I.E. Nothing here I would consider to be set in stone but rather my beliefs]
Just like any business venture you need start up capital. Venture Capital is going to come from and only from fellow enthusiasts. With this type of deal, there will be no Angel Capitol. Forget about it, dont dream, Angels with Cash are pursuing Silicon Chips and green energy...
So we need start up cash. First step is we need investors and a game plan. I'm glad someone wants to chip in $20 and that will help, in time, but for now this is big boy money talk. You need a group of 5-20 people who are truly willing to drop some coin. Then you need to get this group together. Honestly you probably all need to go wheeling together for a week, and weed out one or two personalities that will not mesh, inevitably they are always there and this whole deal has 10x more likelyhood of failing than succeeding anyway, we dont need any internal parasites. At this point lets say we have 10 solid investors.
These 10 need to hash out what their target contribuiton is. Again guys, the 1k/acre land has probably sailed for NC. I can still find a bit in SC, but its sandhills and not ideal wheeling terrain. Anyway at that point figure out an investment goal, then do a feasbility review.
Ok we have 10 guys who have $5,000, we have $50,000 lets call it a day we aint got the cash. Or we have 20 guys with $15,000 we have $300,000 lets take a look and see for example what is available...ok maybe that will work.
At this point we know who our principals are, and we know our budget. Next steps, set investment criteria and sure up capital.
Face it the coin we are talking about is not laying under the sofa (at least not at my house) and when that dream tract does come up, we dont have 2 or 3 months to get our funds together. So everyone goes about and raises their money (if you are borrowing, you need to go ahead and close the loan and place the money in your personal bank account. This way there is no risk of anyone walking with all the cash, and I would personally recommend an N-1.5 investment max. In other words, someone will back out or fall apart and something may come up. (For example if you have 20guys who plan on raising 15k each I would set a real limit of $277,500)
Now its time for another meeting (hey at least we are drinking a lot of beer after these things) and we need to iron out hard and fast requirements, deal killers and then a list of likes.
I.E. it must be at least 100 acres, not within 100yards of a house and it would be nice if there were no creeks on the property. Then the search begins, and here is where your multiple people help. Each investor contacts a separate land/timber buyers agent and puts their ears up. At this point its time to sit and wait on a tract to show up, and everyone keep your hands out of your own cookie jar (that money you set aside)
Ok once land is found agreed on secured and purchased, the easy part is done. (we are still probably 6-12 months from the first wheeling outing)
Again Im tired of hunt and peck typing Ill contribute more later
Reid
Hasnt Seen Dirt in Years
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2005
- Location
- Winston Salem
Sky, Roughshod, you two have obviously put some time and thought into this. What has been your biggest obsticle? why did your plans not come to fruition?
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2005
- Location
- Greensboro, NC
Stop thinking/what iffing and go out and do some actual work involved with getting this started, then you will not only have some idea of what is involved but your ideas will have more credability with the rest of us who have been down this road before!
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2005
- Location
- Sharon, SC
Biggest obstacle is life.
If I did not need to work a full time job to pay for life, I would have enough time to handle all the minutia.
The problem you are going to run into IMHO, is people with enough capitol, to drop on this do not have the time to bring it all together. People with enough time and energy (a certain cartoonish character around here comes to mind) are most likely young, inexperienced (recent college grads?) and will not have the credibility to get a serious investor to believe in them.
In all seriousness, why dont we just get all of Doughboy's rich friends to buy us a whole state? I mean shit Pennsylvania isnt useful for much....maybe Kentucky
Roughshod
Some assembly required.
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2005
- Location
- Locust, NC
Tough to argue with that. Essentially it must be treated like a job. Not a part time job or a project, but rather like something that you dedicate a minimum of 8 hours a day to, no matter what. Clearly that is problematic for about 99% of us.
But in my view, even that is not the MAIN hurdle. The main hurdle is the $5 and $10 that Uwharrie and Tellico charge. That price figure is ridiculously low. The Forrest Service even admits that they can't maintain the trails for that price, meaning that that the trails are subsidized. This has the effect of creating unfair competition to anyone who wants to open a private OHV park. Sure, a lot of guys here on this site would be willing to pay more for a decent place to wheel, but you must understand that we are very much in the minority. In the absence of fair completion it is likely that a private park would be unable to even break even, much less turn a profit.
Reid
Hasnt Seen Dirt in Years
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2005
- Location
- Winston Salem
Thomas Hobbes and Karl Marx may have some advice to offer on how best to approach this task. The bad thing is, communism cannot succeed due to man's selfish dispostion and eagerness to let someone else bear the load.
Yeah, it will take lots of man hours and time to make this work. "many hands make a lighter load" it will take lots of money to make this work. It will also take lots of people coming togther and trusting one another to make this work. From your responses, this seems to be the biggest hurdle.
The hadest thing i see, is getting people together in a positive environment to talk and make decisions. Not from a condescending point of view, from a logistical (as you two have mentioned) point of view. Getting enough people together to work on this in spare time is just not feasible.
To gather the money you would have to run something similar to a political campaign. Thus would require the affore mentioned startup capital.
For the past 3 days or so, ive spent every spare moment reading as much as i can about land use policies and filing for 501(c)3 organizations and business models and charity models, and tax shelters associated with all the above. With the notes i have now, i could probably spend the next month with my nose buried in the computer screen.
The first $30K raised would have to go paying a man (full time, no other job) to sort through all this crap and manage the "campaign".
i see this taking atleast 5 years to make happen (i was never under the impression it would happen overnight). Thats $150k spent before land is even sought!
I team of people could handle it in spare time for CONSIDERABLY less but would still take atleast 5 years. It would take an enormous amount of trust, co-operation and team work to pull that off.
you guys are correct about market competition, but the thing that sparked this whole lets call it brain storm (though its not a new idea) for me was the fact that we are losing our rights to use the places that would be competition for us. 5 years ago...did you think tellico would be in jeopardy?
Yeah, it will take lots of man hours and time to make this work. "many hands make a lighter load" it will take lots of money to make this work. It will also take lots of people coming togther and trusting one another to make this work. From your responses, this seems to be the biggest hurdle.
The hadest thing i see, is getting people together in a positive environment to talk and make decisions. Not from a condescending point of view, from a logistical (as you two have mentioned) point of view. Getting enough people together to work on this in spare time is just not feasible.
To gather the money you would have to run something similar to a political campaign. Thus would require the affore mentioned startup capital.
For the past 3 days or so, ive spent every spare moment reading as much as i can about land use policies and filing for 501(c)3 organizations and business models and charity models, and tax shelters associated with all the above. With the notes i have now, i could probably spend the next month with my nose buried in the computer screen.
The first $30K raised would have to go paying a man (full time, no other job) to sort through all this crap and manage the "campaign".
i see this taking atleast 5 years to make happen (i was never under the impression it would happen overnight). Thats $150k spent before land is even sought!
I team of people could handle it in spare time for CONSIDERABLY less but would still take atleast 5 years. It would take an enormous amount of trust, co-operation and team work to pull that off.
you guys are correct about market competition, but the thing that sparked this whole lets call it brain storm (though its not a new idea) for me was the fact that we are losing our rights to use the places that would be competition for us. 5 years ago...did you think tellico would be in jeopardy?
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2005
- Location
- Sharon, SC
yeah 5 years ago, I knew Tellico had 10 years tops...
I thought it would be eco-nazis not fish nazis, but still.....
I think the NF competition can be overcome (longterm) by branching out.
Neither have a mud pit or hold mud drags. Neither have a rock course and hold rock races. Neither have an onsite shop that repairs breaks and sells parts. Long term maybe a bed and breakfast could be added. etc.
Again. need moneey sitting waiting for land.
I thought it would be eco-nazis not fish nazis, but still.....
I think the NF competition can be overcome (longterm) by branching out.
Neither have a mud pit or hold mud drags. Neither have a rock course and hold rock races. Neither have an onsite shop that repairs breaks and sells parts. Long term maybe a bed and breakfast could be added. etc.
Again. need moneey sitting waiting for land.
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2005
- Location
- Greensboro, NC
I'm your man! I'm retired and looking for a $30k job in 'wheeling
Seriously, I do have the time, just not sure that we have the commitment to capital to make it happen.
http://nc4x4.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33116
That's a $47k commitment
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2005
- Location
- Sharon, SC
Money would be tough...in that poll I think i chose $1k...in all honesty in the right situation I would go 10k or even 20k maybe more....all depending on WHO was involved WHERE it was located and the BUSINESS MODEL.
When we were trying to get my idea rolling down in Chesterfield county about 2 years ago, I was on the hook for a 45k loan, for initial investment .....But that would have been a full time job for me within 5 years or a bankruptable loss. We had an estimate of 100k needed AFTER land close to get it ready to open...
When we were trying to get my idea rolling down in Chesterfield county about 2 years ago, I was on the hook for a 45k loan, for initial investment .....But that would have been a full time job for me within 5 years or a bankruptable loss. We had an estimate of 100k needed AFTER land close to get it ready to open...
Reid
Hasnt Seen Dirt in Years
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2005
- Location
- Winston Salem
Okay. I agree that its stupid to start laying down $10-20k without having anything definate.
Lets not worry about that at this point. This idea has an eventual direction but no initial direction. I think the place to start is to get the public informed of a NEED for a privatly owned park. like i said, start out with a charitable org (our charity would be public land use) and set up an account to take donations. We would let the account build for a year and spread the word everywhere we can. Set up a website. Posting in other forums, flyers at URE and DPG and other wheeling events. We host fundraising events as mentioned before.
Decide on a goal for the grassroots collecting and when that number is reached, then start looking for heavy investors.
This type of collecting wont take alot of man hours and can be managed on peoples spare time. When the goal is reached, then we find/elect one man (or a group) to take the reins.
Lets not worry about that at this point. This idea has an eventual direction but no initial direction. I think the place to start is to get the public informed of a NEED for a privatly owned park. like i said, start out with a charitable org (our charity would be public land use) and set up an account to take donations. We would let the account build for a year and spread the word everywhere we can. Set up a website. Posting in other forums, flyers at URE and DPG and other wheeling events. We host fundraising events as mentioned before.
Decide on a goal for the grassroots collecting and when that number is reached, then start looking for heavy investors.
This type of collecting wont take alot of man hours and can be managed on peoples spare time. When the goal is reached, then we find/elect one man (or a group) to take the reins.
Ricky B
Wiiide Open
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2005
- Location
- LKN - Tha Dirty Mo (Mooresville, NC)
Ha, I had the same thought as John, I currently am seeking employment, have a degree in business management with a concentration in Finance, minor in accounting, good experience in both the mechanical side of 4 wheeling and the event management side of 4wheeling events, and am young and eager
I can forward who ever my resume if needed 
In all seriousness, as far as people wanting a type of park thats all free access whenever vs those that are invite only: If you have a park thats open all the time then you loose a majority of interest, people take on the attitude of hey I can go whenever so I'll go next weekend, then it gets here they say to them selfs well ill go next weekend, etc, etc. It becomes more of a commodity and you loose interest that is generated from having more periodic invites or events with time in between for people to build anticipation.
Reid
Hasnt Seen Dirt in Years
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2005
- Location
- Winston Salem
ha ricky, you raise the $30K and you can have the job. hows that sound?
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2005
- Location
- Sharon, SC
Ha, I had the same thought as John, I currently am seeking employment, have a degree in business management with a concentration in Finance, minor in accounting, good experience in both the mechanical side of 4 wheeling and the event management side of 4wheeling events, and am young and eager
In all seriousness, as far as people wanting a type of park thats all free access whenever vs those that are invite only: If you have a park thats open all the time then you loose a majority of interest, people take on the attitude of hey I can go whenever so I'll go next weekend, then it gets here they say to them selfs well ill go next weekend, etc, etc. It becomes more of a commodity and you loose interest that is generated from having more periodic invites or events with time in between for people to build anticipation.
I COVERED THIS A FEW POSTS ABOVE
Raising money initially is a horrible plan.
I'm not going to detail why, but it should be obvious....
Macdaddy4738
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2005
Another thing to keep in mind with this stuff...
When doing something of this magnitude, it obviously crosses the line between hobby and full time job. Make sure your family is with this idea from the get go...otherwise it won't be pretty...
Also realize that while everyone else is out there wheeling at your new park, you'll be working to make sure stuff doesnt get out of hand, IE not going out and enjoying the park yourself. Just because you have it, doesnt mean you get to use it nearly as much as you would like to...
When doing something of this magnitude, it obviously crosses the line between hobby and full time job. Make sure your family is with this idea from the get go...otherwise it won't be pretty...
Also realize that while everyone else is out there wheeling at your new park, you'll be working to make sure stuff doesnt get out of hand, IE not going out and enjoying the park yourself. Just because you have it, doesnt mean you get to use it nearly as much as you would like to...
peewee
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2008
- Location
- Stokesdale
hey i'm in but can it be near raliegh
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2007
- Location
- high point
We are on the verge of this idea at the stables. IMO it would make more sense to "invest"(supporting events etc. etc.) in the stables rather than a new venture.
Reid
Hasnt Seen Dirt in Years
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2005
- Location
- Winston Salem
the stables would be a great place to expand on...one small problem, logistically...it would already be in the crosshairs of the eco nuts since its right beside URE.
Sky...politicians raise money before they anounce the are running. Hell, i catered an event last week where Richard Childress threw a fundraiser before he announced his plans to fund the new PedTrauma Center. Why would taking small donations a year a head of asking for heavy donors be a bad idea? lets the heavy donors know there is support.
If collect and nothing pans out, We'll take the money and throw a hell of a party at the stables or something!
Sky...politicians raise money before they anounce the are running. Hell, i catered an event last week where Richard Childress threw a fundraiser before he announced his plans to fund the new PedTrauma Center. Why would taking small donations a year a head of asking for heavy donors be a bad idea? lets the heavy donors know there is support.
If collect and nothing pans out, We'll take the money and throw a hell of a party at the stables or something!