pay to play?

jrraw23 said:
Not to rain on what your trying to do at all but to be honest at this juncture do we really need another private park in NC? There's already a ton to do within a fair distance, I mean for example I have done like 4 or 5 events in the last couple months and have had to skip more than 3 because I don't have a job to pay for the gas $$ to haul it out there. Plus there is literally 6 or 7 events in August, other than this weekend it looks like I'm gonna be at events every weekend this month and will have to skip 2 or 3 other events because of too many things at once.
There's just so much to offer around here wheeling wise and not a huge necessity for another offroad park. Granted if you still wanna do it im not gonna complain, and will probably help if I can, I'm just saying its gonna be a logistic nightmare when theres plenty to do round here already, IMO.
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Where are you talking about Rick?
DPG is invite only, we can go there only when told we can, just the way they have it set up
The Farm? Same situation.
URE stables, same once again AFAIK
Where else, share boy share!

What we talk about is something along the lines of Mnt City, where you can go when ever you want to
 
One thing that I think DPG has going for it is that it is rarely open. I know the neighbors in the trailer park up the hill don't like the noise. I seem to remember the sheriff coming to shut us up night wheeling at one event a couple years ago(could be remembering that wrong, maybe a muddevil just regulated and told us to park it for the night?). The fact that there is only noise there one weekend every couple months except for the occasional private muddevil ride, really keeps the overall noise down, and the neighbors happy. I don't know how it would be received by the neighbors if it were every weekend or even every day.

I guess to stop the noise problem, you would need to be able to isolate yourself with a huge buffer of land surrounding the area that would be wheeled.
 
Here's what needs to happen to get it off the ground.

1) Come up with a sound proposal, on paper, probably a legal document, outlining the idea, purpose, rules, rights, etc of investors/partners/members.

2) Find the land. I'm not going to kick in $5k for a sand box in South Carolina and the down east crowd isn't going to kick in for a 50 acre playground in Statesville. IMO you need at least 200 acres that has a few good obstacles or the potential to make them. This is where your initial idea of the $25 fund raiser could come in to provide funds to buy an oprion on purchase of the land.

3) Round up the $. Now you have something to sell and can begin to amass the money/commitments. I need a leagal piece of paper in my hand before I can give you $5k that spells out the business plan, club rules, my rights etc. 200 acres x $1k acre - $200k. Once again with MASSIVE participation that is no problem. If every NC4x4 user gave $100 you would have $500k, more than enough for land, bills, equipment etc. A 50% participation rate would still be enough to buy the land.

4) Lets ride :)

Yager's original Land Purchase thread and poll only came up with about $50k in solid investment money. Lots of interest depending on location but with a venture that is going to need at least $300k in startup funds, I'm not going to do the paper work and all the other work necessary to get this off the ground if I only have a commitment for 1/6 of the money needed! IMO this needs to be in NC between Rraleigh and Burlington to attract the eastern crowd. The western crowd has places to ride and it's not critical to them.

My .02
 
I would have to agree with Ricky. There is not enough support for DPG to keep it running . We have had open rides where only a hand full of people have shown up. But then we've had rides where a ton of people have shown up and donations have been poor to say the least. I'm not trying to start a stink about DPG but it keeps getting brought up, just thought I would enlighten you guys. All monies collected goes to the land owner which usually isn't much. I'm actually surprised we can still ride there to be brutally honest. I find it amazing that people will pay $20 to ride somewhere but if you ask for a donation you'll be lucky to get some change out of there pocket.
Let this pipe dream die , put your efforts into trying to keep established parks in business and the state ,gov land that we ride open. support the places that let you ride now, ask them" is there something we can do to help out" "can we build or maintain a trail, picnic area, shelter." sneedville, gulches, the farm, dpg ,river rock, these are all a few hrs from central nc. support these places ,donate time or materials. most places will almost always welcome outside help especially if your not asking to get paid for your time.
 
I agree that location is imortant and the centrally located the better it would be.

Is there anyone on NC4x4 who is a lawyer?
 
After a lot of thought during and after the last thread... The only real way to make is work is for a single entity (either sole owner or smallish group) to operate the area as a business. IMHO natural land features need to be considered but I think with some creative effort 'comp like' obsticales can be made exactly where needed to best suit the park and crowds (ie events) AND changed or modified over time to fit current trends.

Simple fact is you can't please everyone and people will complain no what you do. I was sad to see how little was raised at the DPG event to help the animals. I know what I dropped in.

If I had the start up $ myself I'd probably consider a private venture... But it would be targeted to the people who can pay the rent and keep the doors open.

Or if I had the $$ I'd just go buy a house (and garage) up in Harlan :)
 
I know my brother in law is in a hunting group and they own alot of acres that they hunt on and just pay an anual fee. If they can do it then we can come up with something that would work as well. If some one just comes up with a plan and makes it happen then it would be nice. You also have to have some machines or some way to make trails and up keep on them. Just things to think about but I am all for this idea
 
I've read this and the previous threads about a group land deal with great interest. But, I think the only non-profit model that will work long-term is the big investor model. Thinking more like 50 people putting in 10k each, with very limited access to the land for anybody else. In other words, it ain't gonna happen. If it would work, I'd be in.

Even with the land paid for, you can't have a free-for all, or $5 bucks to ride, or you would quickly lose control, both over access and with environmental concerns.

Two problems: people...even those putting in 10k each would have their own (different) ideas on management, access, etc, and trespassers...how to identify and collect any $...it's hard to secure 200+ acres.

Unless you open up as a business, with a solid plan to make money off everybody that rides, the only plan that would really work is a very small number of investors (five or less) putting up substantial amounts of money (100k each) for a very private offroad area. Low enough traffic to stay off the radar of the enviro-weenies, neighbors, etc. Tight enough group to keep the neighborhood ATV's out and under control. Kind of like the mini-farm subdivisions out there that cater to the horse people with trails, etc, but larger parcels (25-75 acres each, instead of the 5-15 acres of the mini horse farm subdivisions). I'll go in for that...but where.....we'd be real lucky to find 5 investors interested in that....which 4 are gonna give up jobs, etc to move halfway across the state? Like Yager said, I'd move to Harlan first.
 
kaiser715 said:
Unless you open up as a business, with a solid plan to make money off everybody that rides, the only plan that would really work is a very small number of investors (five or less) putting up substantial amounts of money (100k each) for a very private offroad area.
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But, see, if I had $100k to invest in land, that was going to be that private, I just buy my own land, wheel on it myself and just my buddies, and be done with it... for just me and some buddies, don't need 200 acres.
 
jeepeater2003 said:
I know my brother in law is in a hunting group and they own alot of acres that they hunt on and just pay an anual fee. If they can do it then we can come up with something that would work as well. If some one just comes up with a plan and makes it happen then it would be nice. You also have to have some machines or some way to make trails and up keep on them. Just things to think about but I am all for this idea
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Thats a good idea. And we can incorporate wheeling & hunting! We will scare the deer out of the woods to the hunters in a field... The we BBQ!!

All seriousness though, I agree with Ricky, we need to work on what we have and then go from there. I was thinking as well, the new Whitewater park would be a good spot. They have plenty of land and its already a business, im sure they would love extra revenue. Plus, Jeep & Subaru sponsors a bunch of Jamborees there as well. Some food for thought.
 
yager said:
After a lot of thought during and after the last thread... The only real way to make is work is for a single entity (either sole owner or smallish group) to operate the area as a business. IMHO natural land features need to be considered but I think with some creative effort 'comp like' obsticales can be made exactly where needed to best suit the park and crowds (ie events) AND changed or modified over time to fit current trends.
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I agree with this 100%. I don't see 50+ people working. Single owner, charging by the day to all vehicles is the only way it will work, and if it isn't remote enough then the neighbors will shut it down. Look at what happened to Forest Games.
 
What about looking at it like a Board of directors, with 5 (or what ever) people voted to the board every year, or other year. There best judgement used to make decisions for share holders.

I think the first term ought to be run by the 5 or so biggest investors.
 
BigRedB2 said:
What about looking at it like a Board of directors, with 5 (or what ever) people voted to the board every year, or other year. There best judgement used to make decisions for share holders.
I think the first term ought to be run by the 5 or so biggest investors.
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Well, if I were to theoretically put up 20% of the initial investment it had damn well buy me a permanent seat on the board. Not to say that other board members couldn't be chosen based on other criteria, but to ask someone to contribute the lions share of an investment and then only give him a temporary voice in how things would be run? Good luck finding anybody to volunteer for that.
 
if you do a good job i see no reason why you wouldnt be voted back in.
 
Roughshod said:
Well, if I were to theoretically put up 20% of the initial investment it had damn well buy me a permanent seat on the board. .
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That seems a bit selfish. And in reality may be why this idea keeps failing.

Its not about any one person having control over the investment. its really not even about the investment. Its about having a place to wheel.

"what do i get out of it" seems the sockdologer that kills the initiative.

once that gets brought into the picture the idea dies.

why does no one ask "what can i do for the cause"?
 
BigRedB2 said:
That seems a bit selfish. And in reality may be why this idea keeps failing.
Its not about any one person having control over the investment. its really not even about the investment. Its about having a place to wheel.
"what do i get out of it" seems the sockdologer that kills the initiative.
once that gets brought into the picture the idea dies.
why does no one ask "what can i do for the cause"?
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Reid

$15k is a lot of money, dude.
Lets see - I could drop it on a place to wheel, but only have my name on it for a year, then all bets are off, or I could BUY A NEW CAR.

you have that kind of coin to just drop? I sure as hell don't. not without knowing I'm getting a pretty decent out of it.
You're right, people get pretty greedy, especially when you're talking this level of coinage. I can't say I blame them.

i'll do a lot of things for a cause, wouldn't take too much to pitch in a 20 or so. But the cost of a whole car? Or signif. down payment o na house? That's not money you drop "for the cause", bro.
 
BigRedB2 said:
That seems a bit selfish.
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not selfish at all, its a way for a person to protect their investment and not end up paying a ton of money then have the rug jerked out from under their feet.
BigRedB2 said:
Its not about any one person having control over the investment. its really not even about the investment.
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B.S. a person who put up 1/5 of the money for a venture, having one of five seats on the board of that venture is not one person controlling the entire venture. it is that person always having a say in the handling of the money they put forth and having one of five votes determining the direction of the organization.
BigRedB2 said:
"what do i get out of it" seems the sockdologer that kills the initiative.
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srsly, why would anyone want to put up a large sum of money and not want to benefit from their investment? if thats how you feel, ill pm you my paypal address so you can send me as much money as you would like under the pretense that it will be putting it to good use.
BigRedB2 said:
why does no one ask "what can i do for the cause"?
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bc we are human and no one wants to be used. the only person able to pull that one off was JFK an you aint him.
 
awheelterd said:
bc we are human and no one wants to be used. the only person able to pull that one off was JFK an you aint him.
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Ha ha.. wow.. but true.

Instead of talks on investing and how to handle the investment shouldnt you find that said investment first then make the necissary precautions to obtain the property?
 
:shaking: i see why this idea is doomed now.


I can't believe how little support for this idea there really is.

Maybe i'm ahead of the curve here, but there is going to come a time when there are no public places to wheel.

I try to rekindle and idea that is beneficial to everyone and i get met with insults and negativity. I'm not usually one to whine on the internet about being hazed or picked on, hell, im usually one of the ones do in it.


Reading about all the trail closures and enviro nazi's winning cases every day, the feeling i get from your reactions to this is like watching someone pick a bad line over and obsticle, you try to tell them but they are hell bent on landing on their lid.


it's cool, i can take it. in 10 years, i wont say i told ya so, im not that kind of guy. lol, just dont get mad if i charge you double to wheel on my land :flipoff2:

Alright, enough whining.

Ive figured out that i need to file articles of incorperation and to do that i need a name.

Can we all lay the negativity aside, and take baby steps. No one has asked for money yet so no need to argue over how its spent or who has control.

We may need to choose a few names cause i am going to have to check with the Sec of State to see whats available.
 
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