Project: Tetanus Shot - 1948 Willys

[ghost]

Option 4 turn em up and out the hood!

 

[YJJPWrangler]

Option 4 turn em up and out the hood!

Always a viable option

Exhaust parts ordered. Spent more time underneath it last night and have pretty much settled on option 1. Duals down the framerails, into a Y right before rear axle and then to the muffler. I 'think' I can make my existing muffler work which would be great. Started doing an hour or more in the garage last two nights. Installed my tach, hooked up the mechanical oil gauge connection, reset timing, cleaned up some wiring on the driver side, and cleaned the garage a bit. My parts should be here today or tomorrow so hopefully by Sunday I will have a working exhaust system.

 

[YJJPWrangler]

Well UPS screwed me. They somehow lost a 7.5' stick of 2.5" exhaust pipe . Last known location was the greensboro hub. Got a claim in but all I can do is wait. I did have a box of bends show up Thursday though. I ordered two 180 degree bends, 1 Y pipe, and two 45 degree bends. I also sourced some adapters from 2.25" to 2.5" as the stock exhaust is 2.25".

Lot easier than I thought it would be. Right now I'm waiting on the straight tube but the "hard" part is done. Drivers side hangs a tad lower than I want but its the only way for it to run because of the slave cylinder. I have an idea to create a front skid that hangs off the 90 degree tube from the old skidplate which would protect it. Right now, it sits almost directly behind the leaf spring mount so it would have to be a really well placed rock to hit it. Everything is tack welded in place and will get pulled out for final welds after everything is mocked up. If UPS would get their head out of their ass I should be done shortly...

Driver side.

Passenger side

 

[YJJPWrangler]

Exhaust is pretty much done. Ran it in front of the oil pan and tied it back into the passenger side.

Clears everything nice and is up out of the way. I remembered that a friend gave me an exhaust system for his old JK. Wouldn't you know it, the muffler was exactly the size I needed and was even the right size inlet and outlet.

And the exit shot

Everything's just mocked up from the muffler back. Still need to cycle everything but it looks good. Got to wrap up some more engine electrical and then get it cranked and see how it sounds.

 

[YJJPWrangler]

Good news. Engine runs good and sounds strong. Still need to finish welding the exhaust but that shouldn't be too big of an issue.

Bad news. Can't get the clutch to disengage at all. I've adjusted the slave cylinder back and forth and still nothing. I reworked my slave pushrod to get more pedal travel, still no disengagement. I can feel and hear the throwout bearing hitting the pressure plate and pushing in. I can see the throwout bearing and it slides smoothly on the input shaft. I've talked with numerous people and I gave Novak a call. So I'm sitting at two(three) possibilities.

1. Throwout bearing is too short. I have seen numerous posts online that reference two different throwout bearing lengths. I believe I have the shorter one and would need the longer one. Novak has an adjustable throwout bearing for about $100
2. Pivot point. Novak specifically asked me if I had an adjustable pivot point, I do not. An adjustable pivot point would allow me more leverage on the throwout bearing.
3. Clutch fork. I have also seen differences between the stamped and cast clutch fork. I don't think this is my issue but is still a possibility.

I dont think its my master as I have full travel on my clutch slave. But it could still be a possibility.

Right now, I am debating on whether or not to spend another $90 or so on a master cylinder to see if that fixes the problem or pull the transmission/transfer case. If I pull the cases, I can verify that the clutch is installed correctly and can measure accurately for the throwout bearing. I can also verify that the pivot point is not an issue as well as the clutch fork.

2 steps forward, 15 steps backwards...

 

[a_kelley]

dont think its my master as I have full travel on my clutch slave. But it could still be a possibility.

if you have full travel of the slave, swapping master won't help. It's probably going to be #1 or #2. Actually, 1&2 are effectively the same thing

Can you manually disengage the clutch and measure what it takes to disengage it? Or find specs on travel for the setup you have?

 

[rockcity]

Can you install threaded rod in place of the slave cylinder and use it with some nuts to operate the clutch fork until the clutch disengages? Can measure the length you had to adjust the all thread to see if the slave cylinder will stroke enough to operate the clutch. If you need 2” of travel and you only have 1 3/8”, you need to make adjustments, likely with a new fork or longer bearing, etc.

 

[YJJPWrangler]

Can you install threaded rod in place of the slave cylinder and use it with some nuts to operate the clutch fork until the clutch disengages? Can measure the length you had to adjust the all thread to see if the slave cylinder will stroke enough to operate the clutch. If you need 2” of travel and you only have 1 3/8”, you need to make adjustments, likely with a new fork or longer bearing, etc.

I basically have a 5" long threaded rod in the slave cylinder now. So I have plenty of adjustment in the slave cylinder. I also have plenty of movement in the clutch fork back/forth. @a_kelley I can not manually disengage the clutch. I suppose I could take a rachet strap and pull it all the way back and strap it to the axle but if the throwout bearing is too short its not going to make a difference.

 

[YJJPWrangler]

Going to be dropping the transmission/transfer case as a combo. Probably going to start working on it tonight. Trying to get the wife involved as two sets of hands are easier than one...

I work better with lists, so I set down and wrote out what all I needed to get the cases out.

1. Remove jackstands from rear
2. Remove front/rear driveshafts
3. remove shifters/trans tunnel
4. Support motor.
5. Support cases from the top with engine hoist through trans tunnel opening.
6. Disconnect slave cylinder/linkage.
7. Remove front/rear crossmembers/disconnect anti wrap bar
8. Remove bellhousing bolts and slide cases back
9. Drop cases down to dolly

I'm going to pull the clutch pack as well to verify it was installed correctly. I also have noticed that I have some lateral play in the clutch fork on the throwout bearing, maybe I installed the throwout bearing wrong? I am also going to follow Novak's advice on measuring for the throwout bearing per this:

The Novak Guide to Clutches, Linkages & Bellhousings for Jeep® Conversions

I didn't measure anything when I installed it because I assumed that the throwout bearing was correct for the clutch pack. I got the clutch pack from @BigJUGGY (RIP) when I picked the original motor up from him. I'm going to inspect the clutch pack with a fine tooth comb to ensure that it is the correct one. If the measurements come back wrong(I.e. I have the wrong throwout bearing) I'm going to install this one. This will allow me to set the air tolerance gap etc. I'm also going to install a adjustable pivot point if needed.

Novak Fully Adjustable Throwout Bearings

Hopefully, I will be able to diagnose the issue(I'm kinda thinking throwout bearing installed wrong) so I don't have to spend a ton of money on getting this thing work. Everything I have works independently of each other, now I just need to make it all work together..

I'll take lots of pictures along the way so yall can double check my progress.

 

[YJJPWrangler]

Picture Time!

Alright, with the help of the wife and the thunderstorm(no trick or treaters...) I was able to pull the transmission and transfer case out as well as pull the clutch off..

On to the pictures.

Here is the throwout bearing

Notice the "ring" around the throwout bearing where the screwdriver is pointing at? I believe that is from the pressure plate and the throwout bearing spinning on it. It's easily wiped off and there are no grooves in the throwout bearing, so it should still be good to use.

This is how the throwout bearing rides on the input shaft of the SM420. The big dimple to the right of the throwout bearing is where the pivot point is.

I have a fixed pivot point. I don't see how it unscrews so maybe its pressed in? Can it be pulled out?

This is how the throwout bearing rides in the clutch fork. Notice the snap rings are inside the outer lip of the bearing(the correct orientation)The large bearing face on the right depresses the pressure plate..

All this being said, I DON'T think my throwout bearing, pivot point, slave cylinder, clutch fork, or master is the issue....

I THINK the issue is, I torqued the pressure plate/clutch to hard onto the flywheel. Let me explain...

Standard pressure plate mounting specs calls for 25-30ftlbs of torque in a star manner. It specifically states, don't use air or impact tools. When I went to loosen the pressure plate, I had a hell of a time trying to get it unstuck. When I finally got all of them loosened, I watched the pressure plate "fingers" expand outward a pretty significant distance. After taking off the pressure plate, the clutch pack and the pressure plate came out. The clutch IS installed correctly as the side that states "Flywheel Side" was against the flywheel. I also noticed a faint amount of clutch dust on the pressure plate. I have verified that the clutch pack I have is fits my motor so it shouldn't be the clutch pack.

More pics of the clutch pack and combo because... ?

Soooo....what I think the issue is. I believe I torqued the pressure plate onto the clutch pack WAY too much. I remember using my dewalt impact gun(in a star rotation...) A couple of things lead me to this conclusion. The pressure plate fingers expanded a LOT when I loosened the bolts and my torque wrench is not calibrated(from another thread with help from @Fabrik8 ). I think I torqued the pressure plate way too tight which caused the pressure plate to be in constant contact with the clutch disc. In that current setup, my throwout bearing would NEVER have disengaged the clutch because there was nowhere for it to go, it was already "locked down" or engaged against the flywheel.

Everything looks to be in good working order and no damage to the clutch pack, pressure plate, or flywheel can be observed. I also have no damage to the pilot bushing(other than a few, very light scratches from installing it on the outer rim, doesn't affect the spud shaft on the input shaft)Spud shaft on the input shaft of the transmission looks good, no grooves or wear.

I "think" I can reinstall the clutch, torque it to the required 25-30ft lbs with a good torque wrench(@getstucksome ) and reinstall everything. That should allow the throwout bearing to move the pressure plate the required amount and everything should shift smoothly.

So, advice? Need more pictures? Everything is apart right now and easily accessible. I really, really don't want to install the combo again and then have to pull it again, and again etc...."knocks on wood".

Would the pressure plate being torqued down too much cause these kinds of issues? If I do reinstall the clutch pack, is there a way for me to "disengage" the clutch without putting the transmission in?

This is my first time installing a clutch so I'm open to advice and criticism.

Tagging a few people.... @a_kelley , @rockcity ,@R Q

 

[a_kelley]

Would the pressure plate being torqued down too much cause these kinds of issues? If I do reinstall the clutch pack, is there a way for me to "disengage" the clutch without putting the transmission in?

no. The pressure plate contacts the flywheel at the edge. If you overtorque the bolts, it'll just stretch the bolts/pull threads.

Take measurements -

Bell face to release bearing pushed all the way back.

Bell face to release bearing, as though it were to be with clutch fully depressed.

Bell mounting surface at the block to the clutch fingers with the disc installed & plate tightened.

Throw of the fork on the outside where your linkage attaches.

Throwout finger center to pivot
And
Pivot to linkage attachment point.

Now you say you have a "pull" type slave, does it pull the fork to the rear of the trans then? It looks like you need to push the fork rear wards at the outside to get the release bearing to push against the pressure plate. Or do you have other linkage the slave attaches to?

Take a pic of the pivot - I didn't see that. Usually they will unscrew, like with a bolt hex at the base or torx in the ball center usually. You could shim behind it(equivalent to a thicker release bearing) if that's the case and the travel is sufficient but the fork is too far to realize the travel.. if I have the above measurements I can see if that's the case.

If the Bell is detachable (with pivot), you can check without installing the trans. Otherwise no. But you can check the math on your travel & distances and see if it'll work before installing the trans.

HTH.

 

[R Q]

I'm just tagging along here, A_Kelley has it covered. Somewhere I have every receipt for all of these parts from my build but it would take a day to sort through them. I had to modify my clutch fork (angle) to work but I'm sure my slave and mounting point is different than yours so it's not apples to apples.

 

[Jeff B]

When I did this to that willy, I used a mechanical bell and the willy's through the floor pedal. Along with this chain linkage from advance adapters.

716640 : Jeep 1941-71 Chain Control Assembly | Advance Adapters

 

[YJJPWrangler]

@a_kelley, that makes sense that the pressure plate can't be over tightened down. I just saw a lot of finger movement in the pressure plate when I loosened the bolts and thought that it might be an issue.

On to the measurements...

Just to clarify everything(first time doing something like this)

1. Measure from the bellhousing face to the throwout/release bearing pushed all the way back.

2. Measure from the bellhousing face to the throwout bearing pushed forward(to the clutch). Question here, I have this input shaft bearing retainer here Novak Part # B-3761982(halfway down the page)

Parts for the SM420 Transmission

You can see it clearly in this picture

I can manually move the clutch fork all the way forward(to clutch, to engage) and the throwout bearing can get stuck on the end of the input bearing retainer. I also have noticed that the spring clips on the back of the clutch fork don't really hold the throwout bearing in well, maybe I need to adjust them.

3. Install clutch pack and measure from the bellhousing mounting surface back to the clutch fingers.

4. Measure from the throw of the clutch fork(on the outside of the bellhousing) from back to front

5. Measure the clutch fork from the center of the throwout bearing to the pivot point.

6. Measure the pivot point to the slave linkage.

I'll get those measurements today.

I do have a pull type linkage setup It looks like the picture below. The slave pulls the clutch fork backward which pushes the throwout bearing forward

I will take a pic of the pivot point today as well. It looks like its pressed in, but it might be hiding a torx bit in the center(bellhousing was painted before I got it).

I can remove the bellhousing from the transmission. If I'm following correctly, I could separate the bellhousing from the transmission and install it that way to check measurements etc but can't check to see if the clutch disengages.

I bought this as a complete setup from @strange1. He had this setup originally behind a jeep 258 and was gathering parts to swap it over to a 4.3. The parts for the 4.3 swap were the hydro bellhousing and input bearing retainer shaft.

The clutch came with the original motor that I traded for from BigJuggy(RIP). I have verified that the clutch is correct for the motor.

Clutch pack from Napa:
https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NCF1104902

I have also noticed that I have no return springs on the clutch fork at all. I have the 258 bellhousing with its clutch fork and it has two springs on the clutch fork. I dont think this would be an issue but I'm in uncharted waters.

I'll get those measurements today

 

[NickMaul]

I’d make the assumption that you don’t need a return spring. That is only based off of my experience with my AX15. Not sure there is a spring to be found on either the internal or external slave setup. I have used both in the past.

You’d think when your clutch pedal returns back to normal position it causes the clutch fork to draw back enough so there is no contact between the pressure plate fingers and the throw out bearing? A spring in there feels like a liability.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[YJJPWrangler]

@NickMaul, I dont think a return spring is needed either, I'm just trying to cover all my bases. In my experience, its usually the small, often overlooked detail that screws everything up...

 

[YJJPWrangler]

Ok, got some measurements and a lot of pictures. Measurements in bold first:

1. Bellhousing face to release bearing pushed all the way back into transmission: 4 1/8"
2. Bellhousing face to release bearing pushed all the way forward to motor/clutch: 3" (The input bearing retainer hub is what I based the most forward position of the T/O bearing)
3. Bellhousing mounting surface(motor) to clutch fingers with disc installed/tightened: 4", measured both sides of motor bellhousing surface
4. Travel of clutch fork on the outside of the bellhousing(measured from original slave location). 3 1/8"(T/O Bearing to end of input bearing retainer shaft) 1 1/8"(T/O bearing to back of transmission) so 2" of travel
5. Center of fork to pivot pin: 2 3/4"(I measured the OD of the T/O bearing which is 2 3/4", popped a centerline then measured to middle of pivot point).
6. Pivot Point Center to Linkage Center: 6"
7: Pivot Point Height off transmission: 7/8" to 15/16"
8. Throwout bearing outer diameter: 2 3/4"


Now Pictures:

Pivot point has what looks to be a grease fitting hole offset from the center, there is also a grease fitting on the outside of the bellhousing. It looks like it should unscrew from the bellhousing but I have not tried to yet.

Following pictures relate to the measurements by number. Sorry for the blurry pictures on some.

1.

2.

3. Couldn't get pictures of this one.

4.

5.

6.

Any ideas?

 

[a_kelley]

The input bearing retainer hub is what I based the most forward position of the T/O bearing)

I meant to bearing face that meets the clutch plate fingers. Though instead of remeasuring it all, measure bearing from that point to bearing face. It's too many beer in to correctly figure the math right now, but I'll go through it when I get to stirring.

 

[a_kelley]

2.75:6 is the fork lever factor.

So,

1" slave travel gives .458" release travel.

Pivot height is irrelevant without many more measurements for math purposes, as it's included in the fork to bell measures.

So what's left is figuring distance from release to pressure plate and travel of release after contact to pressure plate. Only other spec (which may be hard to find) would be pressure plate travel to release point.. which would tell you if the release needs to be thicker, travel more, or etc.

I'm not good at math at the moment. Let me sleep on it and I'll get back to you. (And may need more information as well)

 

[ghost]

Sounds like you don't have enough throw. Could be the bearing too short or maybe the fork is tweaked. I had an issue like this once and used a bolt to determine how much travel disengaged the clutch. I installed the transmission with no tcase. It was an AX5 so I made a bracket that bolted where the slave went. I ran the bolt down which pushed the fork and throw out bearing in. eventually I could turn the output o my transmission by hand. Meaning the clutch was disengaged. I measured that and then measured the throw of my slave. It was too short. In my case it ended up being a bent peddle where the master attaches to it.. The peddle you have is from an xj. Assuming you are using the one you go from me. If you look at how it's made you will see what I'm talking about. The flat piece that the master attaches to will tweak. I'm not saying that is your problem but I'd make sure you an get the clutch to disengage to rule that out. Maybe all the measurements will show that. I'm not that smart so I do things the hard way. Good luck!

 

[rockcity]

I think you need a return spring. All my clutches had return springs. I dint see where it would hurt.


Can you see that the clutch arm moves when pedal is pressed? Something just doesn’t sound right. You probably only need about 3/4” at most, of bearing movement to release the clutch. Are you getting this much movement in the bearing? I’d think you could adjust the rod to the point where the bearing is touching the pressure plate fins.

are you sure the flywheel is correct? The newer LS motor flywheels don’t work easily with the older transmissions and need a spacer to engage on input shaft. I’m wondering if the 4.3 has similar challenges?



Like I mentioned previously, can you replace the slave cylinder with all thread and tighten it to see if you can release the clutch and what the distance was that released the bearing. Should be able to tell you the necessary throw and also isolates concerns with bearing/arm if it does release. Then you can work backwards and see if your slave has enough stroke, etc.

 

[a_kelley]

Ooohhhh, is the bell removable??? If so install it, with clutch & plate installed. Mock it all together with the slave also. Then see how far the release is from clutch (nearly touching hopefully) and then depress, and see if you can rotate the disc. Just a thought along the lines of the above two. Personally now leaning towards too short release bearing.

 

[a_kelley]

1. Bellhousing face to release bearing pushed all the way back into transmission: 4 1/8"
2. Bellhousing face to release bearing pushed all the way forward to motor/clutch: 3" (The input bearing retainer hub is what I based the most forward position of the T/O bearing)
3. Bellhousing mounting surface(motor) to clutch fingers with disc installed/tightened: 4", measured both sides of motor bellhousing surface

according to this, you're release bearing sits 1/8" from the fingers installed. Your fork ratio and stroke, give .630" travel. If you adjust up the linkage to where the throwout contacts the plate fingers, you only move the fingers in .630". I'll bet that is the issue. But if you can install the housing without trans, you can measure the travel required to release the clutch if you can find a way to apply pressure to the fork. Unless the manufacturer specifies the amount of travel required to release.

 

[YJJPWrangler]

@rockcity , the clutch fork does move when you depress the clutch pedal and you can feel it moving the pressure plate. The flywheel is also correct(168 tooth)

Today, I pulled the transmission/transfer case apart. Per Novak's website for measuring throwout bearing size...

Measurement Option I: Straight Edge and Math
This option is great if you don’t want to mock install your transmission and you have access to a nice, long straight edge.

With the clutch disc and pressure plate installed, place the edge of a long straight edge squarely against two opposing diaphram fingers such that one edge of it sits directly behind the block face. Now take a short scale and measure from the block’s flat, machined face to the straightedge. Record this measurement.

Now, with the bellhousing on the transmission, place the edge of a long straight edge squarely against the front face of the bellhousing. Take a short scale and measure from the bellhousing’s flat, machined face to the land (the area where the throwout bearing rear edge stops) of the transmission’s front bearing retainer.

Now, subtract the sum of the diaphragm fingers-to-block measurement and the air gap desired from the bellhousing-to-bearing-retainer-land measurement. This is the suggested overall length of your throwout bearing.

Assemble your bellhousing and transmission assembly to the engine and verify your work.

This is what I came up with.
Block of motor to clutch fingers = 4"
Bellhousing surface to the land of the front bearing retainer = 5 1/2"
Air gap 1/16"
Clutch wear 1/16"

So....5.5" - 4" - .12" - .12" nets me 1.26" needed for throwout bearing size.

My throwout bearing measures 1 1/4" or 1.25". Please check my math...

I also removed the bellhousing from the transmission and installed the bellhousing to the motor(clutch pack installed) with the clutch fork and throwout bearing installed. I then used a ratchet strap to force the throwout bearing against the pressure plate. Little to no movement and the strap was really tight. I am positive that the clutch is installed correctly.

Just for fun, I reinstalled the bellhousing against the transmission and installed the clutch fork and T/O bearing. Here it is with the T/O bearing all the way back.

Here it is all the way forward(lined up with the end of the input bearing retainer)

I then pushed the T/O bearing a bit further past the input bearing retainer end. It still slides smoothly at this point. If the T/O bearing comes forward anymore it will "stick" on the input bearing retainer shift and has to be manually pushed back in by hand(hands on the T/O bearing spinning it till it slides on). I cant use the fork to push it back on past this point.

Here is a picture of my clutch installed on the motor.

 

[YJJPWrangler]

Just mocked up my slave on the transmission.

From the bellhousing surface with a flat edge to the face of the T/o bearing disengaged(back to transmission) it measures 4"

From the bellhousing surface with a flat edge to the face of the T/O bearing engaged(manually operated slave to full compression) it measures 3 3/8"

So .625 inches. @a_kelley you were correct that the T/O bearing only moves .630"...so is this a slave issue or T/O bearing issue?