Random Thoughts.....

[RatLabGuy]

Strangely I agree with most of your point, rare as that may be, but you have thrown out the less reliable line a few times and it simply isnt true. Cars built today are more reliable and durable than at any time in the history of the automobile.

that, and he's flat our ignoring what is a billion dollar business area and massive field of research and engineering... traffic optimization. There are piles of and piles of people working on this exact problem. Many types of software you can buy to figure out these things. Its a whole field of civili engineering. A simple Google search will reveal all.

Maybe the road he's talking about hasn't been addressed or optimized. Or maybe he isn't aware of it bc he happens to get stopped and doesn't realize that one period of local-term negative events doesn't mean the whole long-term large picture isn't working. Who knows.

Also it takes time and money to apply these things, pay for the engineers to survey, test, and implement, and that happens (paid for) at the local level, which means more property taxes. But who wants to pay those? ... when instead you can just rely on a Fed regulation that makes it the problem of a private company.
Because

There are hundreds of thousands of civil/road engineers already.

those people already have jobs to do, they aren't just sitting around idly. When you want a new problem addressed it takes new people to address it. And those people cost money.

 

[jeepinmatt]

that, and he's flat our ignoring what is a billion dollar business area and massive field of research and engineering... traffic optimization. There are piles of and piles of people working on this exact problem. Many types of software you can buy to figure out these things. Its a whole field of civili engineering. A simple Google search will reveal all.

Maybe the road he's talking about hasn't been addressed or optimized. Or maybe he isn't aware of it bc he happens to get stopped and doesn't realize that one period of local-term negative events doesn't mean the whole long-term large picture isn't working. Who knows.

Also it takes time and money to apply these things, pay for the engineers to survey, test, and implement, and that happens (paid for) at the local level, which means more property taxes. But who wants to pay those? ... when instead you can just rely on a Fed regulation that makes it the problem of a private company.
Because

those people already have jobs to do, they aren't just sitting around idly. When you want a new problem addressed it takes new people to address it. And those people cost money.

Or maybe they are just doing a shitty job and not focusing on the right things. I can point to a number of areas around here where they have made things WORSE instead of of better with the "improvements".

In mechanical engineering school, we are taught how to make things move, whereas in civil engineering school, they are taught how to make things not move. Yet the government hires civil engineers to design roads.

 

[Ron]

Or maybe they are just doing a shitty job and not focusing on the right things. I can point to a number of areas around here where they have made things WORSE instead of of better with the "improvements".

In mechanical engineering school, we are taught how to make things move, whereas in civil engineering school, they are taught how to make things not move. Yet the government hires civil engineers to design roads.

I guess it depends what the objective is - to reduce emissins or speed up traffic

 

[RatLabGuy]

I guess it depends what the objective is - to reduce emissins or speed up traffic

Exactly. An ICE puts out less emission idling at 300 rpm than it does at 2000 rpm.
I can make a traffic model that greatly reduces traffic emissions by not allowing anyone to go anywhere.

"efficiency" is defined by your goal.

 

[Spence]

Cars built today are more reliable and durable than at any time in the history of the automobile.

I see you havent owned a newer diesel with DEF/DPF? I love my 6.7 truck, but i dont think anyone out there would say a new cummins with hydraulic lifter issues, DEF/DPF/EGR is more reliable than an '03 common rail 5.9.

 

[jeepinmatt]

I guess it depends what the objective is - to reduce emissins or speed up traffic

Disagree. Flowing traffic is less emissions that non-flowing because no start-stop-start. Congestion never reduces emissions. At BEST it is a net neutral assuming the energy expended to move the vehicle is the same, but there's also more time spent running, so its always worse.

 

[jeepinmatt]

Exactly. An ICE puts out less emission idling at 300 rpm than it does at 2000 rpm.
I can make a traffic model that greatly reduces traffic emissions by not allowing anyone to go anywhere.

"efficiency" is defined by your goal.

Travel-less emissions sounds like the stuff of a Chinese government wet dream. See above, but if "work" required is the same (moving mass from point A to point B), and time is longer, emissions are higher.

 

[Ron]

Disagree. Flowing traffic is less emissions that non-flowing because no start-stop-start. Congestion never reduces emissions. At BEST it is a net neutral assuming the energy expended to move the vehicle is the same, but there's also more time spent running, so its always worse.

So by your logic every intersection should be permanently closed in one cross…

My point is on the crowd as a meta…yes you may slow down an individual few cars but as a whole less are aloud longer

 

[skyhighZJ]

With the tech we have now a days why can’t they sense what’s where or approaching from X distance out given the known MPH on the converging roads. Given main should take precedence over feeders or side streets but still…..
Just down the road from my place they just did a shave and pave of hwy5 and one of its main feeders (sandpit road). A few days later I went to take off the trash and they are out there cutting in the very aged tech of sensor cable to feed the junction box at the corner to “tell the light” when there are cars there. All new, fresh everything and I still have to sit and wait for the light to change with no cross traffic like it didn’t even exist and it’s just on a rudimentary timer like we are in 1974. That makes no sense to me. But I’m no enji-scientist.

 

[RatLabGuy]

Watching the RNC debate tonight is so entertaining, its like watching a half dozen teenage monkeys flinging poo at each other then getting surprised when some gets in their mouth

 

[Noel]

Watching Any political debate tonight is so entertaining, its like watching a half dozen teenage monkeys flinging poo at each other then getting surprised when some gets in their mouth

Fixed it for you. Sad you think one sides different from the other

 

[RatLabGuy]

Fixed it for you. Sad you think one sides different from the other

When did I say that?
There isn't another party debate on tonight.

 

[Lizooki]

The best thing those civil engineers can do is improve roads and traffic flow with their designs so that by the time construction is completed, the new road is already overflowing.
Concord to Charlotte is just one shining example ….. anything within 20 miles of Charlotte or Raleigh is one everlasting gobstopper of construction.

 

[NCJeeplover]

Why do they not change all lights to flashing yellow on the primary road and flashing red on the secondary road from like 10pm-5am every day?

I grew up way out in Caldwell County. Lenoir was our nearest "city". My wife used to complain that the entire town closed at 9pm. She said even the stop lights close at 11pm! lol

 

[benXJ]

maybe they are...but 'reliable' and 'durable' can be subjective.....and for who? The person leasing, buying for the long haul, or the 2nd owner?

Is a car with start stop, AFM, electric powered water pump and PS pump, 10 gears, 14 screens, 10 cameras, 17 zone AC, self driving, buzzers, beepers, power retracting door handles, power lift gates and self closing doors, LIDAR, radar, rain sensing wipers, water cooled alternators, giant integrated battery packs, 1..2...,3 motors, air suspension, $1000 (EACH!) headlights, 17 terrain modes, electric e-brakes, high voltage wiring, electric interior door poppers, turn dial gear selector, powered hiding gear shifters, no trans dipstick, terra-bit computers, super thin oil and lightweight rings, miles of wiring and locked down ECUs, DPF/DEF, 14 high pressure oil and fuel pumps, screens in rear view mirrors, constant variable movable intake runners and flaps, and turbos buried in the V........more 'reliable' and/or 'durable' to the average joe?

guess we'll find out in a few years

 

[benXJ]

I guess it depends what the objective is - to reduce emissins or speed up traffic

well another HUGE 'objective' of your elected officials is MPGs as well.....as a power grab, that was mentioned earlier.

they also always tell us that we waste billions of dollars and millions of hours in 'traffic' every year

so where are these thousands of engineers spending their billion dollar budgets?

stopping 20 cars from 60 mph because one idiot sat at the light and didn't turn right when they had a chance is not time and resource efficient or clean. That's some low hanging fruit man.

Don't even get me started on the 45 mph school buses on I40 causing miles of backups at 730am and 430pm. Its like they do it on purpose.

 

[jeepinmatt]

So by your logic every intersection should be permanently closed in one cross…

Are you playing Shawn here? I never said to decrease the flow of any traffic. I said we're better off with everything flowing. Design things to work and move traffic, not sit still.

 

[YJJPWrangler]

This is kind of my area of expertise regarding traffic lights/traffic flow etc. We perform a LOT of traffic flow/optimization studies. With the newer fiber optics/cabinets, the changes to signal timers can be updated from the Traffic Control Center(TCC) in real time. In 2011, I was part of a project that replaced every single cabinet and copper infrastructure with newer cabinets and fiber optics for the entire Raleigh area. 6 hub cabinets controlling 6 regions of Raleigh that all connect back to the TCC. Along with those infrastructure upgrades, traffic studies were also performed and that data was used to model traffic timer counts etc. Once the project was up and running, we did an after action study and found that traffic waiting time was reduced around 40%. For the average user, it was something like 1-2 mins less of sitting in traffic but if you extrapolate that number across the entire rush hour, the time savings are real.

In regards to vehicle detection: Loop detection( wire in the road that senses a vehicle) remains to be the cheapest and maintenance free form of detection even though the tech is decades old. It just works. You only have to worry about it when repaving and depending on your depth of milling, you might not even hit the loops. The newest loops can be placed in the bottom of the top course of asphalt(typically 1-1.5"). From loops, you can step up to Microwave vehicle detectors(MVDS). These have more infrastructure requirements since the MVD has to sit on a pole and has to be pointed at the lane. More expensive to implement, more maintenance but pretty accurate in most weather types(sun glare is most common form of false readings). The newest tech is IR/FLIR cameras at an intersection which serves dual roles for both traffic counts and wrong way vehicle detectors. AI/Machine learning is starting to play a bigger role especially in wrong way vehicle detectors. New tech equals more $$$$ so most municipalities tend to shy away.

Flow of traffic is important in all directions. The hard part is figuring out how/when to cycle timers based on the main/secondary/tertiary routes. Again, for the individual you might see a 1-2 minute decrease in your commute which you don't notice.

For that Raleigh project, we were pulling out copper wiring that was 4" thick and was installed in the 70s. Some of that wiring was installed in terracotta pipes. A lot of municipalities are still operating on old school tech and don't have the budget/vision for upgrades.

FYI most traffic studies are 6 weeks or more. Got to have a lot of data to build a complete picture. It's not a instant switch especially when dealing with DOT.

 

[jeepinmatt]

This is kind of my area of expertise regarding traffic lights/traffic flow etc. We perform a LOT of traffic flow/optimization studies. With the newer fiber optics/cabinets, the changes to signal timers can be updated from the Traffic Control Center(TCC) in real time. In 2011, I was part of a project that replaced every single cabinet and copper infrastructure with newer cabinets and fiber optics for the entire Raleigh area. 6 hub cabinets controlling 6 regions of Raleigh that all connect back to the TCC. Along with those infrastructure upgrades, traffic studies were also performed and that data was used to model traffic timer counts etc. Once the project was up and running, we did an after action study and found that traffic waiting time was reduced around 40%. For the average user, it was something like 1-2 mins less of sitting in traffic but if you extrapolate that number across the entire rush hour, the time savings are real.

In regards to vehicle detection: Loop detection( wire in the road that senses a vehicle) remains to be the cheapest and maintenance free form of detection even though the tech is decades old. It just works. You only have to worry about it when repaving and depending on your depth of milling, you might not even hit the loops. The newest loops can be placed in the bottom of the top course of asphalt(typically 1-1.5"). From loops, you can step up to Microwave vehicle detectors(MVDS). These have more infrastructure requirements since the MVD has to sit on a pole and has to be pointed at the lane. More expensive to implement, more maintenance but pretty accurate in most weather types(sun glare is most common form of false readings). The newest tech is IR/FLIR cameras at an intersection which serves dual roles for both traffic counts and wrong way vehicle detectors. AI/Machine learning is starting to play a bigger role especially in wrong way vehicle detectors. New tech equals more $$$$ so most municipalities tend to shy away.

Flow of traffic is important in all directions. The hard part is figuring out how/when to cycle timers based on the main/secondary/tertiary routes. Again, for the individual you might see a 1-2 minute decrease in your commute which you don't notice.

For that Raleigh project, we were pulling out copper wiring that was 4" thick and was installed in the 70s. Some of that wiring was installed in terracotta pipes. A lot of municipalities are still operating on old school tech and don't have the budget/vision for upgrades.

FYI most traffic studies are 6 weeks or more. Got to have a lot of data to build a complete picture. It's not a instant switch especially when dealing with DOT.

Who do we need to talk to around here to get things improved? I have a lot of ideas with data to back it up.

 

[YJJPWrangler]

@jeepinmatt

CRTPO is the planning board. They make the decisions around here on what is funded/studied etc.

Home - CRTPO

Welcome to the Charlotte Regional Transportation Planning Organization (CRTPO) We are a regional transportation planning organization serving communities in Iredell, Mecklenburg, and Union Counties. Please explore our website for more information on our current plans and projects, upcoming...

crtpo.org

But you got to remember, a lot of this stuff is YEARS in the process due to red tape and bureaucracy. Projects have to be studied for effectiveness,then scored(against a lot of others), then 10/100 are selected for next steps. Unless there is already a contract for traffic studies in place, they are pretty low on the totem pole since they aren't flashy like a new bridge or roadway etc.

 

[jeepinmatt]

@jeepinmatt

CRTPO is the planning board. They make the decisions around here on what is funded/studied etc.

Home - CRTPO

Welcome to the Charlotte Regional Transportation Planning Organization (CRTPO) We are a regional transportation planning organization serving communities in Iredell, Mecklenburg, and Union Counties. Please explore our website for more information on our current plans and projects, upcoming...

crtpo.org

But you got to remember, a lot of this stuff is YEARS in the process due to red tape and bureaucracy. Projects have to be studied for effectiveness,then scored(against a lot of others), then 10/100 are selected for next steps. Unless there is already a contract for traffic studies in place, they are pretty low on the totem pole since they aren't flashy like a new bridge or roadway etc.

I'm just talking some light timing. And repainting some stupid merge lines.

 

[jeepinmatt]

@jeepinmatt

CRTPO is the planning board. They make the decisions around here on what is funded/studied etc.

Home - CRTPO

Welcome to the Charlotte Regional Transportation Planning Organization (CRTPO) We are a regional transportation planning organization serving communities in Iredell, Mecklenburg, and Union Counties. Please explore our website for more information on our current plans and projects, upcoming...

crtpo.org

But you got to remember, a lot of this stuff is YEARS in the process due to red tape and bureaucracy. Projects have to be studied for effectiveness,then scored(against a lot of others), then 10/100 are selected for next steps. Unless there is already a contract for traffic studies in place, they are pretty low on the totem pole since they aren't flashy like a new bridge or roadway etc.

I guess I figured out why the traffic planning from Gaston to Mecklenburg is shit:

 

[benXJ]

@jeepinmatt

CRTPO is the planning board. They make the decisions around here on what is funded/studied etc.

Home - CRTPO

Welcome to the Charlotte Regional Transportation Planning Organization (CRTPO) We are a regional transportation planning organization serving communities in Iredell, Mecklenburg, and Union Counties. Please explore our website for more information on our current plans and projects, upcoming...

crtpo.org

But you got to remember, a lot of this stuff is YEARS in the process due to red tape and bureaucracy. Projects have to be studied for effectiveness,then scored(against a lot of others), then 10/100 are selected for next steps. Unless there is already a contract for traffic studies in place, they are pretty low on the totem pole since they aren't flashy like a new bridge or roadway etc.

Yes, light timing (at new-ish intersections), green/red length at certain times of day.....and yellow flashing turn arrows more often....and not just being on timers 24/7

not ripping out 50 year old infrastructure and totally re-doing.

But I guess red tape gets in the way, no matter the scope of the project.

Y'all hiring? I could keep busy for 5 years.

 

[YJJPWrangler]

I'm just talking some light timing. And repainting some stupid merge lines.

CDOT then. I485 lane marking is abysmal.

Yes, light timing (at new-ish intersections), green/red length at certain times of day.....and yellow flashing turn arrows more often....and not just being on timers 24/7

not ripping out 50 year old infrastructure and totally re-doing.

But I guess red tape gets in the way, no matter the scope of the project.

Y'all hiring? I could keep busy for 5 years.

Gotta remember, timer's are the normal, de facto operation. You get maintenance providers used to that and they don't want to stray into newer systems because change.

Problem with the old tech is a lot of it has to be programmed in the field and the input process is archaic. Most of the guys that know how to do that are either retiring, dead, or don't work in the field anymore. On top of that, RPD/RFD was notorious for getting into the old cabinets and manually controlling the timing for events like Wolfpack football/Canes games etc. Some times they turned them back on in correct phasing, most times they didn't. The newer cabinets/controllers can hold multiple patterns that can fire on a schedule, old stuff can't. Those schedules can be changed from the TCC on the fly depending on the event. Can't put the new controllers in a new cabinet and hook it up to run on 50 year old copper. Hell, there are still analog cameras in use by Charlotte and the media stations today. However, they are slowly being phased out with digital by hopefully end of year. We don't have any camera coverage of the southern to southwest portion of 485 currently. With the Express Lanes under construction, cameras are being added and new fiber trunks are being run so we will have coverage in the future.


We do have a Raleigh office off six forks that is moving to a new North Hills location in a few months. We are constantly hiring.

 

[benXJ]

Thanks for the input!
Yea....I'm not talking about major highway infrastructure or legacy products.....sure....those take years.

There are thousands of new-ish and updated surface street and local highway intersections throughout the state that need work/retiming/studied/calibrated/reconfigured. How the talented engineers got it so wrong from the get go is crazy.

Maybe I'll apply! @RatLabGuy always puts his 2 cents in and tells me to 'go fix it' without fully reading or understanding the full thread conversation.