Tank-less Water heater Vs. Traditional Water Heater

What about just grid tie a couple solar panels or a wind turbine to simply offset utilities? Then go for a 80g and just keep it *hot*
 
Decided to look into a tankless recently. We already have a traditional tank wh running on gas. We have 3 kids and run out of hot water after 3 showers usually, or one full tub. But this is really more of a want than a need. Reclaim some garage space and not worry about running out of hot water, etc.

So I reached out to a plumber that has a great reputation in my neighborhood and he came by to look earlier this week, and I just got a quote of $2k labor plus parts to install the tankless unit (Navien npe A2). He made it out like it was going to be a quick one day job so I was a bit surprised. This would include no additional repiping of what he could get at from the garage or drywall or anything. Just an r&r.

Am I just a cheap ass or is that a normal, decent price?

His price to spend 2 weeks repiping the whole house and add in the recirculation seemed ok (8k) so we may just wait and do it all at once when bonus season comes back around. (Edit: our neighborhood got a lot of that shitty pex pipe back in the 00s, thus the consideration of the full repipe.)
 
paulevans76 said:
So I reached out to a plumber that has a great reputation in my neighborhood and he came by to look earlier this week, and I just got a quote of $2k labor plus parts to install the tankless unit (Navien npe A2). He made it out like it was going to be a quick one day job so I was a bit surprised. This would include no additional repiping of what he could get at from the garage or drywall or anything. Just an r&r.

Am I just a cheap ass or is that a normal, decent price?
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I don't know anything about plumbing aside from "hot on the left and shit runs downhill" and if you don't putty pipes well, they leak.
But I can do math, and even if it takes a a whole day, 8 hours, thats a labor rate of $250 an hour. Which seems very excessive.
 
paulevans76 said:
Decided to look into a tankless recently. We already have a traditional tank wh running on gas. We have 3 kids and run out of hot water after 3 showers usually, or one full tub. But this is really more of a want than a need. Reclaim some garage space and not worry about running out of hot water, etc.

So I reached out to a plumber that has a great reputation in my neighborhood and he came by to look earlier this week, and I just got a quote of $2k labor plus parts to install the tankless unit (Navien npe A2). He made it out like it was going to be a quick one day job so I was a bit surprised. This would include no additional repiping of what he could get at from the garage or drywall or anything. Just an r&r.

Am I just a cheap ass or is that a normal, decent price?

His price to spend 2 weeks repiping the whole house and add in the recirculation seemed ok (8k) so we may just wait and do it all at once when bonus season comes back around. (Edit: our neighborhood got a lot of that shitty pex pipe back in the 00s, thus the consideration of the full repipe.)
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Seems a bit on the high side. That's probably the "I don't really want to do this job but I will for enough money" price.
 
Id bet he is planning on two guys there all day. Our plumber just bumped his rate to 140 an hour per person. He may be figuring having to pay someone to hookup the gas/electric besides him. if I was figuring the job id figure 2 hours to take out old tank and prep area, 1 hour minimum to re-configure piping, 3 hours to install and plumb in. then figure 1 hour to fine tune and check everything is working and then an hour for misc. crap and cleaning up. your at 8 hours.
 
paulevans76 said:
Decided to look into a tankless recently. We already have a traditional tank wh running on gas. We have 3 kids and run out of hot water after 3 showers usually, or one full tub. But this is really more of a want than a need. Reclaim some garage space and not worry about running out of hot water, etc.

So I reached out to a plumber that has a great reputation in my neighborhood and he came by to look earlier this week, and I just got a quote of $2k labor plus parts to install the tankless unit (Navien npe A2). He made it out like it was going to be a quick one day job so I was a bit surprised. This would include no additional repiping of what he could get at from the garage or drywall or anything. Just an r&r.

Am I just a cheap ass or is that a normal, decent price?

His price to spend 2 weeks repiping the whole house and add in the recirculation seemed ok (8k) so we may just wait and do it all at once when bonus season comes back around. (Edit: our neighborhood got a lot of that shitty pex pipe back in the 00s, thus the consideration of the full repipe.)
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I think our new Rinnai was about $3,500 last summer. That also included some kind of fancy back flushing water filter though that has its own faucet/tap on the side of the house.
 
Left unsaid: A Rinnai tankless heater costs $500/yr, not counting electric and gas consumption.
 
cranbiz said:
Seems a bit on the high side. That's probably the "I don't really want to do this job but I will for enough money" price.
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I think it's a little of that. He also quoted me 2k labor to install an exterior door on the side of the garage. Seems like he's at the point where he's going to make 2k to show up to do anything.
 
DSM Turbos said:
What part of it failed?

My HVAC died at 6 years. Does that mean that is typical?
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New house. We moved in Nov of 2013. Around summer of 2015-2016 our son stuck the hose in the exhaust outlet of the Rinnai flooding the unit. Repair man came out and fixed it. I don't recall what was wrong, but it was an inexpensive repair. Summer of 2021 it quit working. The repair man flushed the unit thoroughly, and replaced some $200 item that he thought would fix it, but it didn't. IIRC he said the next item to replace that he thought was the problem would be about $800 (I don't remember what part it was). At that point he didn't recommend spending that much money on an almost 8 yr old unit, so we bought a new one. Apparently you are supposed to flush the system once every year. Doing that will extend the life of the system. We didn't know that. My wife and son both like to take really long showers. My wife also has what must be a 200 gallon soaking tub. We never run out of hot water.
 
paulevans76 said:
I think it's a little of that. He also quoted me 2k labor to install an exterior door on the side of the garage. Seems like he's at the point where he's going to make 2k to show up to do anything.
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If you are still in York - call EGM Plumbing. 803.280.4995
Ask for Grady.
He is an old friend and the owner. He does high end work but for a cash customer he will work a deal.

If you called Doan's in York - I'm sorry. Not the same since ownership change.

Harper is another close friend (and neighbor) but he does more HVAC than plumbing but licensed to do both and has 15+ trucks. EGM is more 2-3 guys.
 
drkelly said:
New house. We moved in Nov of 2013. Around summer of 2015-2016 our son stuck the hose in the exhaust outlet of the Rinnai flooding the unit. Repair man came out and fixed it. I don't recall what was wrong, but it was an inexpensive repair. Summer of 2021 it quit working. The repair man flushed the unit thoroughly, and replaced some $200 item that he thought would fix it, but it didn't. IIRC he said the next item to replace that he thought was the problem would be about $800 (I don't remember what part it was). At that point he didn't recommend spending that much money on an almost 8 yr old unit, so we bought a new one. Apparently you are supposed to flush the system once every year. Doing that will extend the life of the system. We didn't know that. My wife and son both like to take really long showers. My wife also has what must be a 200 gallon soaking tub. We never run out of hot water.
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Yep, a lot of people never flush them. You can DYI for like 100 bucks for the first time, after that it is really cheap for just the chemical stuff. If you are on a well its even more important to flush them.
 
Ron said:
If you are still in York - call EGM Plumbing. 803.280.4995
Ask for Grady.
He is an old friend and the owner. He does high end work but for a cash customer he will work a deal.

If you called Doan's in York - I'm sorry. Not the same since ownership change.

Harper is another close friend (and neighbor) but he does more HVAC than plumbing but licensed to do both and has 15+ trucks. EGM is more 2-3 guys.
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Appreciate the recommendation! If we decide to go forward with just the tankless install, I will give him a shout.
 
drkelly said:
Apparently you are supposed to flush the system once every year. Doing that will extend the life of the system. We didn't know that. My wife and son both like to take really long showers. My wife also has what must be a 200 gallon soaking tub. We never run out of hot water.
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You're "supposed" to flush your tank WH once a year, too. Doing so might add a few years to the life of the device, but it doesn't really change the basic math. You're looking at spending $3500 every 7-10 years. The benefits of the tankless are saved space vs a tank and no mixing valve. Annual operating costs are about $70/yr less for the tankless, so maybe you save $700 over the life of the unit. That probably gets negated if you're using a hot water loop to address minimum flow rate issues at lavatory faucets.
 
shawn said:
The benefits of the tankless are saved space vs a tank and no mixing valve.
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And increased capacity.
The tankless heater was never designed to save money, it was designed to increase capacity and reduce wasted space . Creative sales and marketing teams tried to change the narrative to expand the base.
 
Ron said:
And increased capacity.
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Depends on how you measure capacity.

I'd say a 75 gallon gas water heater can provide more HW than any single family residence could ever use. You're looking at probably 120-130 first-hour gallons based on a 120F setpoint. Increase the setpoint and maybe add a mixing valve, and you're easily up in the 200-250 gallons first hour range.

Meanwhile, a tankless can only achieve a certain temperature delta at a certain gallon/minute rate. Take three showers at the same time (or one conventional shower with one 'fancy' multi-head shower) and you will run out of hot water, especially in the winter. Then you start needing multiple tankless units to satisfy the demand.
 
shawn said:
You're "supposed" to flush your tank WH once a year, too. Doing so might add a few years to the life of the device, but it doesn't really change the basic math. You're looking at spending $3500 every 7-10 years. The benefits of the tankless are saved space vs a tank and no mixing valve. Annual operating costs are about $70/yr less for the tankless, so maybe you save $700 over the life of the unit. That probably gets negated if you're using a hot water loop to address minimum flow rate issues at lavatory faucets.
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I honestly never thought about it from a financial perspective. My wife was really hot on getting it so we would never run out of hot water, especially with her big soaking tub. We don't have a hot water loop. There is a delay on getting hot water at the faucets and in the shower. We have gotten use to that, and it doesn't bother us at all.

The $3,500 also included the parts and labor for a special back flushing water filter. I believe that was $500-$800 of the bill, so the real cost of just the Rinnai replacement was about $2,700-$3,000 over 7.5 years. Maybe we would have gotten another 2-5 years out of it if we had flushed it out annually. I plan on flushing this new one annually, so we will see. I do have a well, but the water quality is good.
 
shawn said:
Depends on how you measure capacity.

I'd say a 75 gallon gas water heater can provide more HW than any single family residence could ever use. You're looking at probably 120-130 first-hour gallons based on a 120F setpoint. Increase the setpoint and maybe add a mixing valve, and you're easily up in the 200-250 gallons first hour range.

Meanwhile, a tankless can only achieve a certain temperature delta at a certain gallon/minute rate. Take three showers at the same time (or one conventional shower with one 'fancy' multi-head shower) and you will run out of hot water, especially in the winter. Then you start needing multiple tankless units to satisfy the demand.
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What’s the difference in gas tanked vs electric tanked?
Noticed you qualified gas - so curious if there is a faster recovery time etc.
Never had a gas tanked. We went from electric tanked to gas tank less and its worlds better. But maybe Id have ben just as happy with a gas tanked.
 
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How much solar hot water does it take to turn a straw man in to a red herring using ad hominem without confirmation bias?
 
Ron said:
And increased capacity.
The tankless heater was never designed to save money, it was designed to increase capacity and reduce wasted space and water . Creative sales and marketing teams tried to change the narrative to expand the base.
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Edited to reflect that there are people in the world that actually have a need to conserve water too.
But even that depends on teh setup.
 
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