URE workday.. what really happened. thru my eyes

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As far as the money is concerned let me be crystal clear. We went over our hours on both machines so we should have owed an additional $320. Instead the rental company did the right thing and didn't charge us, so in the end we saved $300. The money will go towards a future equipment rental.

And yes that will probably be a Bobcat. Until someone can furnish a solution that can install guard rail, break up rocks, grade/dig, etc in one package we will be using a combination of wheeled units and tracked units.

A tractor even with an FEL isn't designed to do grading/digging. It doesn't have the breakout force to do so, its designed for transporting materials (this is why you rarely if ever see them with a toothed bucket). And as we learned back in December of last year, the auger attached to a PTO on a Tractor is no match for rocky areas. We had to take the Bobcat behind the tractor in at least 80 percent of the holes it drilled to finish drilling the holes.

This extends out to the Forest Service equipment. They have a Kubota Tractor with an FEL but no 3 point hitch. They also have a New Holland Tractor with a 3 point hitch but no FEL. Combine that with the above facts they won't be of much use to us.

As far as the walk behind mini track loaders are concerned, unless someone wants to walk miles of trail I don't see them being of much use. Beyond the fact they aren't heavy duty enough to tackle most jobs we have out there.

Lastly we have TLBs/Tractor Loader Backhoes/Backhoes that are not well equipped for the trail. They are too big to maneuver efficiently, and are too big for most vehicles to haul them. Besides the cost to rent ones is outrageous. If we really need to use a TLB in rare occasions I know someone who would be willing to use theirs probably.
 
As far as the money is concerned let me be crystal clear. We went over our hours on both machines so we should have owed an additional $320. Instead the rental company did the right thing and didn't charge us, so in the end we saved $300. The money will go towards a future equipment rental.

*Not* as a point of argument about the Bobcats, but as information for your interaction with the rental company - about 2 hours of the runtime logged on the T190 Bobcat were from it running, sitting still, while we were working with Deborah's husband to try to get the track back on. Not doing work. First with Chris operating it, and then with me operating it when Chris came back to your group. Working the track forward and backward while prying on it, pushing down with the auger to lift the nose to take pressure off the track, etc.
 
I was asked in a PM, why I'm not partticpating in FOU. I'm gonna post this into the thread, keeping in line with my 'never say anything I wouldn't say to someones face' online motto...

I've been involved with URE work days since I started wheeling 10+ years ago. I think they can be better organized. The FOU club has to many glory hounds looking simply for recognition.

The word "I" is used much to often when the word "WE" should be used. Numerous suggestions and recommendations have been outright ignored buy the self appointed officers of this club. Sometimes you don't know what you don't know...

There are many many qualified people out there. Was anyone asked if they had equipment experience ? I've run the track-cats before and felt I was of average ability. My neighbors older son does this as a day job. He did more in 5 mins than I had done in 1 hr. Point is... ask....

Tasks/group coordination - If the event was so well planned and detailed, where were these plans? This info could have been handed out by a 12 year old on a piece of paper.
At work I call these types 'Hoarders of Information'. Looking to create job security and build your little empire.

The proper way to do it would be to communicate and educate to the point where others could function properly in your absence, but immediately welcome your return. That's job security.

I would however suggest that anyone attend a work day and form your own opinion of the situation. Don't form an opinion of it based on one event, but as with finding the right 4x4 club, test the work days with different groups and see what is a better fit for you.
 
Unfortunately "I" was not able to attend this. "I" Think that this Should have been more of a Group organized work Day.

Eli it is apparent that "you" worked hard on this project but this needs to be more than a one man Show.

This is Very Apparent in your posts Above. The word "I" is used way to many times. I do not see the word "we" very much.

Bruiser does know what he is talking about and has been involved with many many work projects at URE and and organized some big events in The past.

Also as a group organized event you would not be taking all of the heat.

my .02
 
i don't know if the following comments were in response to mine or not, but if so then I don't see how mine were "blame game" or "bashing." It's an honest question about monies (which were not brought up so not part of a "game") that everyone should be asking in my opinion.

Sorry, "Blame game" wasn't directed at you. I think it is very legitimate/mandatory to understand where the money went and what is left over. Receiving half-answers from other organizations is why I no longer associate with them. For me to donate funds to an organization (especially ones without tax status or official by-laws) I want to see where they spend their money.
 
I can't say I am sorry I missed this. I have only participated in one workday there, and on that day i too was very disappointed at how much was accomplished. We had the people, but the organization was not there, largely due to the Forest Service. I don't remember her name, but as we started to finally get to work, it was lunch time, and after a few holes, we were already late to eat with another club who had graciously offered to feed us. Seems it was frowned on that we as unpaid volunteers, dare to want to go eat.
that said, my observations of this thread are:
There may be planning, but it wasn't done very well.
The leader, president, supervisor, foreman, manager, or what ever you call this person, needs to lead, guide and direct. They do not need to be on a machine or otherwise unable to see the big picture.
They need to plan.
as in:
Job 1.:
What needs to happen
What material do we need to do this
What tools do we need to do this
How many people do we need to do this.

Make check lists, and get everything together. Then assign duties, go over the plan with those involved, and send them out, move on to Job 2.

Have your discussions and meetings before the work day, assign this person or that person a duty. Check on progress of their planning,...before the work day.

The more people who know what's going on, the easier it will be for the job to get done.

Imagine running a business, and not telling your employee's what they are to do, just post up, show up for work.

Have a back up plan, when something doesn't work, it should not halt all progress.

organize travel routes, why should job 1, keep job 2 from starting?

Don't try and do it all yourself, the better informed assistants you have, the smoother it will go.

Keep yourself in a position(if you are the leader) to see what's going on, and fix any issues as they arise. You can't do this if you are in the thick of things. You will have tunnel vision. You need to be able to see the "big" picture.

As with anything involving multiple people, communication and organization is key. You can't expect to have a well oiled machine, if you have miss matched gears and no oil.
 
Philosophy class “We participate and therefore we are”, with a little bit of "consultant team building" magic. I've sat though all that and enough group sessions to know that not always are you, us, i, we, and those other pronouns chosen to mean anything really meaningful. Its more on a persons environment, and something I don't remember because I dropped out. there is no "I" in team, but there is an "I" in pie. And there's an "I" in meat pie. Anagram of meat is team... I don't know what that's about.
I cant find the post, once before I mentioned trying to get a head count in addition to our "whos coming to the work day poll" from the clubs, and was told something along the lines of that wasn't our job, or we weren't supposed to be doing that or something like that.
I don't see how we can make an accurate plan if we have a poll with 7 people in a poll and 30 people show up.
If I'm not mistaken the TASKS were posted in the thread and where they were. The order was what was screwed up. Right?
YEP: http://www.nc4x4.com/forums/showpost.php?p=905553&postcount=22
 
The FoU is got the goal in mind, and the inative. these are great things to have, but like with any group its not perfect and problems occur. The work organization is being thrown out alot, but with working with the FS and the enviroment curve balls will be thrown at you. With this Organization needs to be a think on your feet with back ups. I have notice that the plans for the work days are for optimal conditions and work load with very little room for problems. Plan for the worse, Hope for the best.

One thing I see is under ultization of the people and their talents and skills. There should be something in place weather a thread or something under our profile of skills that can be used at these trail work days. This information could be very helpful not only for work at URE but other trails throughout the region.

Egos need to take a backseat for any kind of progress to be made. There is a high potential and a need for a group like this. It does not who did what in the past. Today is today and we need to work with what we have now. Learn from the past but do not focus on the past.

I hope things will get better and judgements will not get in the way of progress. Take care
 
Im in agreement with Bruiser and Yager. I am glad now that we went on by, instead of stopping to help. My group (Montero,CJ5 and wrangler) left the outpost about 9:40 and when we went by the Hunt camp parking lot everybody was still loitering about.

Im ex-military, I couldnt stand around and just wait for something to do, or have the "plan" change a half dozen times. I understand there was hard work accomplished, but theres obviously a lack of organizational skills, FoU and FS!


And I can attest for Chris trying to get there quick as possible, he was basically using my montero as a hood ornament down 49 and 109, lol!:D:driver:
 
One thing I see is under utilization of the people and their talents and skills. There should be something in place weather a thread or something under our profile of skills that can be used at these trail work days. This information could be very helpful not only for work at URE but other trails throughout the region.
x2. Good idea!
 
Did I miss it- Were the finances behind the donations shared?
How much was raised?
What was the money spent on?
How much is left over?
Plans for the remainder of the money?
Plans to raise more money?

Sorry if this was covered in a previous post (I saw the post about the savings on overage hours). I will delete if the questions above were answered.

Scott
 
From day one I have always been open to constructive criticism, and I read everything that is posted. I have a feeling this isn't true about what I post, but oh well.

I am going to state some facts for those making suggestions to consider while giving feedback. And clear up some things that I have read over and over.

1.)The "title" comments aren't getting us anywhere. I don't care what I am called, Uwharrie Organizer, President, etc. The only reason titles were added and a loose structure was created was per the request of the donating clubs and other donating individuals. So there would be a more transparent system in place of who is in charge of what, who deals with the money, etc. If people choose to read anymore into it than that, that is not my problem.

2.)The whole "I" and "We" thing has been played out. The bottom line is there are only 2 people that show up to every work weekend. Myself and Brian (Tech11). And this is due to the fact there are different groups volunteers fall under. There are 3.

A.)The people that think light load workdays are a waste of their time. Coming out putting up trail diamonds, picking up trash, etc isn't worth coming out for. I respect their view, and they tend to volunteer on the heavy workdays where you can see what got accomplished.

B.)The people that think heavy workdays are too much work. They don't want to come out and break their backs, which can happen on a heavy work day. They enjoy the more laid back pace of the light workdays. And I respect their view and they are usually there on the light workdays when its just a hand full of people.

C.)The people that don't care what the work load is, they just want to get out and volunteer.

Because this in the end is volunteering, no one is getting paid for what they do. And if the don't want to come out and do certain work they don't have to. And I don't blame them. Factor into this people have a life outside of volunteering, and random sh*t does happen that prevents people from attending.

You aren't guaranteed who will show up at any given time, the only 2 people you are 99 percent sure you will see are myself and Brian. Not even the Forest Service has the same people at every work day. This isn't a paid job that people are required to attend or they loose their job.

For the sake of argument we will use Bill, Bob, and Billy. Bill is in charge of one portion of the workday. He can't show up, so Bob is his replacement. Last minute Bob's truck breaks down and he can't make it. That leaves Billy which was going to be riding with Bob so that leaves no one. This isn't a far fetched scenario, its reality. If we were to effectively distribute the responsibilities it would either have to be to someone dedicated to showing up to every workday needed, or have 4-5 backups.

3.)The entire plans for the workday weren't relayed to everyone for a couple reasons.

A.)If the plans change last minute everyone has to be informed of what changed. Like when the plan Changed Friday, and then multiple times Saturday. I would have to of last minute some how relayed to the entire group the entire plans changing. The the next day when the plans changed again I would have to relay that to everyone again. Then on the trail when the groups were split up, I would of had to some how relayed that the plans changed again.This just isn't a reality at URE. Especially when the groups are split up on the trail out of communication range. There isn't time to do this, and it just causes frustration and confusion. People get upset the plan is changing, they want to know why it changed, people want to argue about what we should do and why, and almost every time someone thinks they have a better idea and they feel the need to share it.

When one part of the plan is presented at a time there aren't any disputes, and if something ahead changes it doesn't cause a cluster f*ck. Because no one is the wiser when we move forward and do option C.) instead of B.) because plans changed.

B.)This translates to groups ending up where they aren't supposed to be etc. If group 1.) is supposed to head to site B.) then C.) and then D.) they will go off and that is what they will do.

Lets say site A.)is bridge repair B.)Rock breakup, plus grading site C.)Is the Mud Hole, and site D.) is Guard rail. Both the T-190 and T-300 know what the entire plan.

The T-300 is headed to site A.) to do break up rock. The T-190 is also headed to site B.) to do the grading but has to stop at site A.) First to help bridge repair. The T-190 goes to site A.) to help with bridge repair. Mean while the T-300 goes to site B.) to break up the rock. But at site B.) someone decides that site B.) is no longer a priority. The T-300 is sent onto site C.) to work on the mud hole. This information can't be relayed to the T-190 because it is out of communication range. It finishes up site A.) and heads to site B.) to find no one there. The T-190 can't grade the site without the T-300 breaking up the rock. The T-190 doesn't know what to do, and ends up going back to site A.) to find out what is going on. No one knows at site A.) so he goes halfway across the trail to site C.) to find the T-300. Over an hour has been wasted because the plan changed, and the information was no longer accurate.

If you keep the group together, and relay the plan as work is completed and as it changes it eliminates this problem. If everyone knows the plan and goes off in different directions, and the plan changes there is no way to let them know. And then they have no clue what is going on.

But even though it goes against my logic, we can try to "Share the plan" with everyone tactic. Keep in mind everyone that wanted one was provided with a map and a list of the work so they did know what we were going to be doing. They didn't know the order it was going to be done, but they had an idea of what was going to be done. But only a handful of people took the map/work list. Some might remember when I asked if anyone needed a map/work list.

No matter how we organize the work load and how many people we have leading different groups there is a huge margin for error. If it be a group not having a leader because no one showed up, or if it be a group ends up off somewhere with no clue what to do because the plans changed and they didn't know about it. Someone somewhere is going to feel that their time has been wasted, and they won't be happy with how things went. And as long as their are multiple chiefs plans will be changed, and things won't go smoothly. Either the Forest Service needs to call the shots, or we need to. We can't have someone laying out a plan, and then the Forest Service changing it entirely mid stream. That isn't a change of plans due to circumstance that can be adapted to. That is a choice made to throw a wrench in the plan and send things down a slippery slope.

This is a fact of organizing large groups in a volunteer situation. In the workplace things would be much different. People would be required to be there, and in the rare instance someone didn't show up there would be a backup. There is a clear decision maker, and there isn't anyone above them to change the plan mid stream. What they say goes, and everyone is on the same page. And I would be more apt to sit there and give orders and treat people like workers. I try to have an understanding that people there are volunteering, and causing conflicts doesn't do us any good. Obviously I need to take a stronger step forward than I did in the workday, where I messed up and just let people do as they wanted.

I am willing to try anything, but I don't see it working as smoothly as people are making it out to. Because we aren't working in a paid business, we are working in a volunteer group where people can come and go when ever they want.
 
Did I miss it- Were the finances behind the donations shared?
How much was raised?
What was the money spent on?
How much is left over?
Plans for the remainder of the money?
Plans to raise more money?
Sorry if this was covered in a previous post (I saw the post about the savings on overage hours). I will delete if the questions above were answered.
Scott

This was covered in the raising money thread and on here but I will re-cap:

-A little over $1,300 was raised.
-The money was spent on rentals for 2 machines for 1 day each, and 3 attachments for 1 day each. Plus fuel for the machine(s).
- $300 is left over
- Remainder of money will be spent on a future equipment rental
- Plans are being made to raise future funds. But in light of the outcome of the past workday we will not be asking for donations in the immediate future.

EDIT: I forgot a key point. Chris (CLTDBA) our Treasurer has the money, and the records of the money spent etc. If anyone wants the exact details I would contact him.
 
Rounding to the nearest dollar.

Donations: $1340
- Rentals: $982
- T300 Fuel: $50
-----------------------
$308 remaining

And for the record... I'm no professional bobcat operator. I've done it all of 5 times in my life. So if someone is a better operator than me..the keys are yours. I'd rather see more work get done. I don't contribute financially and haul the bobcats out there just to mess around and tear them up.

I was not happy with the amount of work that got done either. I voiced that all day long. So how are we going to fix it and make sure the rest are not like this?
 
thanks cltdba for a treasurer's report, I know you may have posted elsewhere already, it's great to see it repeated since it's hard for most people to follow all threads and there are way too many open for the past weekend (I know I don't follow them all), hard to keep up etc. thanks again.
 
I was not happy with the amount of work that got done either. I voiced that all day long. So how are we going to fix it and make sure the rest are not like this?


I'm working on something right now based on what Valkyrie45(maybe a few others) suggested.

Gonna work on a skills spreadsheet for those who wish to participate, make a google doc and disseminate it amongst volunteers/clubs/cia/etc. Then we will at least have a clue as to who can do what, and contact them.

Bobcat operator, sawyers, lefthanded potato stretchers, whatever.
 
my suggestion is .. if Tech11, cltdba and DRaider90 are the top 3 of FoU then you guys do not need to be driving the bobcats and lead..

what I mean is Eli if you are the head then you need to be mobile so you can move around look at situations and make suggestions.. and if Tech11 and cltdba are next in command then they need to be able to communicate with you to make changes based on what you see.

At any point if the 3 of you are not behind the bobcat seat or whatever you can all help with the manual labor but at the same time step away when needed to organize other areas.. when you guy are behind the seat of the bobcats you can not do that.
 
Carry a grease gun?:rolleyes:

Agreed! :) Anytime tracks are involved I'll have one.

I'm working on something right now based on what Valkyrie45(maybe a few others) suggested.

Gonna work on a skills spreadsheet for those who wish to participate, make a google doc and disseminate it amongst volunteers/clubs/cia/etc. Then we will at least have a clue as to who can do what, and contact them.

Bobcat operator, sawyers, lefthanded potato stretchers, whatever.

Sounds good. Best thing I can suggest is to have a document that details the work to be done. If you have an accurate head (and skill) count then assign the work to individuals/groups. Print enough copies to go around and bring them to the work day. Disseminate them to everyone. Get these documents to Deborah and Terry a week before the workday.

And for what it's worth, the work days where Terry Savery is involved go much more smoothly. If Deborah is going to be representing the FS, then be prepared to make slight adjustments. However, be assertive and don't let her change the plan. That will make everyone confused.
 
my suggestion is .. if Tech11, cltdba and DRaider90 are the top 3 of FoU then you guys do not need to be driving the bobcats and lead..

what I mean is Eli if you are the head then you need to be mobile so you can move around look at situations and make suggestions.. and if Tech11 and cltdba are next in command then they need to be able to communicate with you to make changes based on what you see.

At any point if the 3 of you are not behind the bobcat seat or whatever you can all help with the manual labor but at the same time step away when needed to organize other areas.. when you guy are behind the seat of the bobcats you can not do that.


I'm not top anything. I just rent/haul the bobcats, try to help get things organized when I'm at the work days and otherwise work my ass off. I don't have the time or patience to do much more than that. I'm normally the guy behind the post hole diggers, shovel and/or ratchet putting the guard rail in. This time we had two bobcats. I offered to operate one since no one else spoke up.

However, I agree with what you're saying. Those leading the work day should not be on the bobcat. In previous work days the FS has been "leading" things. This is not working because they do not have preliminary contact with the volunteers. They need to be organized well before the work day arrives. The FS likes to do things last minute.
Therefore, do not allow the FS to instruct group members on what work needs to be done.
 
good or bad, I think the idea was to do the work weekend and see how it went. I really think had we had the deuce earlier and gotten the supplies in place and more prep work done, even if I was still hurt it would have been much better. Honestly. If I had not been hurt, with two people who knew what was going on, and getting info distributed out and decisions made even more so.

Hindsight. ALWAYS 20/20. I know people were pissed. I've talked to some, and heard some stories. I'd like to try and move past personal attacks and get this thing going. Mistakes made, shit happened, live and learn.

We'll keep moving forward and learning as we go. It can just get better right?
 
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