VT shooting

i agree with the military issue as well. if you can fight for us (which i am very thankful for those that have and are doing so now) then you should be allowed to defend yourself here at the same age.

i hope they change laws here! the TN law is a good step foward. i hope that i have not been harsh or offended anyone. i just think what has happened is unfair. i dont want it to happen to me. respect, thats all.
 
Another monday-morning quarterback was saying today on the early news that the postal clerk should have known something was up and called the cops -- because "why would anyone be mailing a package to NBC if they weren't up to no good".

Wonder how many civil rights will be infringed in the coming months? Referencing our basic right to be assumed innocent and not treated like a criminal because we do something like mailing a package to NBC. The TSA has been bad enough.

"Papers, please"
 
But this guy followed the letter of the law to get his gun.

Since in a Va. court he was deemed mentally ill and an eminent danger to himselves and others, he would have been unelligible to purchase the guns. For some reason that information never made it on his record. He had to lie on the paper work, then since there was no record of his mental condition the insta-check didnt catch it.

To me it seems that there is not enough comunication between agencies. What this shows me is that the laws in place are suficient, but the enforcement just isnt there.
 
Since in a Va. court he was deemed mentally ill and an eminent danger to himselves and others, he would have been unelligible to purchase the guns. For some reason that information never made it on his record. He had to lie on the paper work, then since there was no record of his mental condition the insta-check didnt catch it.
To me it seems that there is not enough comunication between agencies. What this shows me is that the laws in place are suficient, but the enforcement just isnt there.

x2
 
Wonder how many civil rights will be infringed in the coming months? Referencing our basic right to be assumed innocent and not treated like a criminal because we do something like mailing a package to NBC. The TSA has been bad enough.

"Papers, please"


Dude... "in the coming months?!" Hell... that's already happening. Just ask the Duke lacrosse team.
 
Since in a Va. court he was deemed mentally ill and an eminent danger to himselves and others, he would have been unelligible to purchase the guns. For some reason that information never made it on his record. He had to lie on the paper work, then since there was no record of his mental condition the insta-check didnt catch it.
To me it seems that there is not enough comunication between agencies. What this shows me is that the laws in place are suficient, but the enforcement just isnt there.

Actually, there is no reason thsi should have shown up on the background check. In VA the check is onl yagainst criminal offenses. He did not have to lie b/c he specifically was not asked if he had ever had had a history of mental illness. Asks only if you are currently "insane" as defined by the state - which he was not.
Even when he was deemed "unsafe", it was through a route of "voluntary commitment", meaning that he voluntarily checked himself into the clinic. He was not involunarily commited, like when they come and take you away. The big (and important) difference here is that for one, you can split when you want and do not have to carry the label, while the other you are under the custody of the state, and many more records become generated which follow you around.

According to the state there is a huge difference between "danger to self" and "danger to others". Unfortunately it sounds like either a) back in '05 he wasn't so bad or b) was subtle enough that somebody missedi t at the time during the evaluations.

I'm quite sure that one of the fallouts of this will be the question of whether mental history should or should not be included on background checks in the future, and (much more probelematically) how you deem who does and does not pass. In MHO the bigger failure here (gun issue aside) lays in this system as it is currently operating (or not).
 

When madmen go on killing sprees in America, they use guns.

I'll be honest... I didn't get past the first paragraph. When somebody says something that fawking stupid in the very first sentence, my attention span falls off shortly thereafter.

Julio Gonzalez threw $1 worth of gasoline into an illegal night club in New York City in April 1990 to get back at his girlfriend, and killed 87 people.

But for some reason, his name never comes up in discussions that include Columbine, UT Austin, and VT. Why might that be? I'll give you a hint: it's the same reason you won't hear "reporters" bring up mass shootings in the UK or France in recent years that killed dozens of people. It doesn't support the meme that "guns and/or living in the United States turns people into crazy, violent killers".
 
I'll be honest... I didn't get past the first paragraph. When somebody says something that fawking stupid in the very first sentence, my attention span falls off shortly thereafter.
But for some reason, his name never comes up in discussions that include Columbine, UT Austin, and VT. Why might that be? I'll give you a hint: it's the same reason you won't hear "reporters" bring up mass shootings in the UK or France in recent years that killed dozens of people. It doesn't support the meme that "guns and/or living in the United States turns people into crazy, violent killers".

GOOD STUFF
 
I carry. I plan to live.
thats about the best thing ive heard on the subject so far... well actually the subject was VT mourning, and i accidently turned it into a spew against anti-gun idiots...but thats still the best summary of my feelings on ccw...
My OVERALL opinion of this whole topic is: we dont need more guns...and we DONT need less guns, we need Better CC courses, better trained armed citizens, and more acceptance of CC. even if you dont want to carry, you still are protected by anyone around you that does, whether you realize it or not. if you dont agree with CC, please, for your sake and more importantly for mine, dont get it.
I will get concealed carry, and one day i may save your life, your family's life, or a complete stangers. i just wont count on you to save mine if you dont agree with CC.
 
thats about the best thing ive heard on the subject so far... well actually the subject was VT mourning, and i accidently turned it into a spew against anti-gun idiots...but thats still the best summary of my feelings on ccw...
My OVERALL opinion of this whole topic is: we dont need more guns...and we DONT need less guns, we need Better CC courses, better trained armed citizens, and more acceptance of CC. even if you dont want to carry, you still are protected by anyone around you that does, whether you realize it or not. if you dont agree with CC, please, for your sake and more importantly for mine, dont get it.
I will get concealed carry, and one day i may save your life, your family's life, or a complete stangers. i just wont count on you to save mine if you dont agree with CC.

well put. 3rd party protection! you could be that 3rd!
 
um yeah that is second degree murder and no where in there did you state that the other man had a gun. therefore 3 party life was not in full danger of death. i said, was being rapped at gun point


then you need to go back to CCW class...

you're allowed to use lethal force under three conditions:

1. threat of lethal force
2. threat of major bodily harm
3. sexual assault

you're also allowed to protect a third party if they would be allowed to use deadly force for any of the three reasons above...

therefore, you have every right to shoot a man raping your wife...regardless if they're armed or not...

Greg
 
:shaking: Think what you want to think. Concealed weapons will never be allowed on campus.


are you refering just to NC?

cause it's already legal at the state level in state of VA...each college is allowed to prohibit carry individually, just like Virginia Tech did...

therefore, if I'm not allowed to protect myself, you have to provide that protection...which is why the lawsuits will come...

Greg
 
on a separate note, I've decided to stop spending money at business posting "no weapons" signs...AFTER informing the manager of my decision...

the "legal" aspect of having to protect your customers if you don't allow them to protect themselves will probably cause more of those signs to come down...

now, if we could just get a 51% alcohol rule like Florida, we'd be good to go...;)

Greg
 
good article I just ran across:

Defending ourselves: the constitutional strategy
Lessons from Virginia Tech shootings

April 19, 2007
Alan Keyes


Right now, the American people are understandably caught up in the emotional reaction to the horrifying events at Virginia Tech University. Leftist pols and media manipulators around the country and the world fanatically clamor that we should round up the usual "suspects" — that is, the guns responsible for all this violence. They want to distract us from the issues of human responsibility that are at its core. The responsibility of the killer. The responsibility of the police and university officials. The responsibility of gun-ban advocates whose success at Virginia Tech made certain that no one in Norris Hall was armed to interrupt the killer's methodical spree by forcing him to defend himself, or slow down in fear of his own life.

Sadly, the clamor for gun control cooperates with the official desire to escape close scrutiny for the inexplicably lethargic response to the emergency. Why did the gunman have so much time to coolly prepare his second assault and pursue his victims after it began? Surely police should have entered Norris Hall to confront him within moments after he fired his first shot there. Reports suggest, however, that they entered the building up to half an hour later, scant moments before he ended his own life. Reports also suggest that in the meantime, he fired scores of rounds, which means he had to reload many times to fulfill his deadly intention.

Lessons

Far from suggesting that we should restrict or ban possession of firearms, the Virginia Tech killing spree illustrates two points often made by supporters of the Second Amendment: 1) Disarming the population leads to a higher death toll from violence. 2) The police cannot or will not protect people from deadly assault. They are organized mainly to enforce the law, not to protect our persons from harm.

The trite clamor of the anti-gun forces should ring especially hollow in this age of terror. Their aim is to eliminate gunmen by eliminating their guns, but is there any sensible person who believes that even the strictest, most pervasive gun-ban laws will prevent terrorists from obtaining weapons? We can't be sure they won't obtain weapons of mass destruction, so how could we ever prevent them from obtaining handguns or automatic rifles?

Given the very real likelihood of terrorist infiltration and action, nothing we do by law can eliminate the gunmen. They will always be a threat. Instead of pretending to do what we can never achieve, we should concentrate on doing what is certainly within our power. We can make sure that our population is enriched with a leaven of defenders, so that no gunmen, lone or otherwise, could ever again act with the calm assurance that he is in no danger from his intended victims.

The Virginia Tech killings expose the illogic of the anti-gun forces, allowing us to realize that disarmament does not create the conditions for peace, it prepares the population for slaughter. It's as if we should propose to protect the body from infection by reducing or eliminating the antibodies that can immediately attack and destroy an infection before it does much harm. The truth is that as the threat of violence in all its forms increases, we need to increase the presence of antibodies throughout our population. Since we will never completely prevent predators from swimming in our stream, we need to make the water more dangerous to them.

Constitutional remedy

Our Constitution already provides the concept we need to achieve this strategic objective — the militia. In its proper constitutional sense, the term means all the able-bodied people who can be trained and disciplined to act in the community's defense when it's attacked. Since it encompasses every able-bodied person, it does not refer to those — such as the police, the military, or even the National Guard — who formally compose the official defense forces of the nation. Every citizen able and willing to act in an emergency becomes a potential defender against attacks aimed at the general population.

Unfortunately, because of the anti-gun folly of the leftist media and politicians, we have lost sight of this vital element of our defense. We make no provision for its training and discipline. In the early days of our republic, the able bodied citizens would meet periodically, bringing their own weapons, to train on the village green. We need to adapt this concept to the realities of contemporary life.

I would propose that every state government institute a program to organize the militia, developing a uniform curriculum of training and discipline that could be offered at the local or enterprise level throughout the nation. This would mean that at an institution like Virginia Tech, people could volunteer for militia certification. After their training (which would include components intended to identify and weed out unstable or otherwise unsuitable people), and appropriate screening and background checks, they would be certified as militia volunteers with the right to openly bear arms as they went about their everyday business.

Imagine the different course of events at Virginia Tech if such a militia certification program had been implemented instead of the stupid general disarmament that actually took place. When the first shots were fired at the dormitory, there might have been one or more certified militia volunteers who could have confronted the killer before he left the building. The moment he opened fire in Norris Hall, a few certified militia volunteers would have positioned themselves to return his fire, pinning him down while others escaped and the police rallied to the scene.

Of course, the moment we begin to visualize this reaction, we understand why it would be important that certified volunteers be known to local authorities, openly bear arms so that their fellow volunteers and citizens know who they are, and wear some identifying marker (an armband for instance, supplemented by electronic means so that the whereabouts of volunteers could be tracked and coordinated) during an emergency situation. All this could be provided for in the organization and training of the volunteer corps.

Professional fallacy

I can already hear the chorus of objections from people who have been duped into believing that the defense of a free society can be left to professionals. They reject the constitutional concept of the militia because in the end they do not believe that people have the capacity to govern themselves. They want us to treat firearms the way peasants treated the weapons of the medieval era, as things reserved for the use of a privileged few on whom everyone else had to rely for their safety, and who of course ultimately defined the limits of their freedom.

The anti-gun crowd seeks to establish a modern version of this lordly domination, a kind of bureaucratic feudalism, in place of the republican self-government established by our Constitution. Just as the income tax eliminates the people's control of its own resources, they want a general gun ban to eliminate the people's capacity to defend itself. They will pretend that our safety requires it, even though our tragic experience proves just the opposite.

The truth is, we can have both safety and liberty if we return to the common sense concepts of our Constitution, and step forward to resume our responsibility as a people for the safety and defense of the communities in which we live. The answer is not gun control, but self-government, self-defense, and self-control. We must act to live as free people, else like sheep for the slaughter, we will die, and freedom with us.

© 2007 Alan Keyes


Greg
 
then you need to go back to CCW class...
you're allowed to use lethal force under three conditions:
1. threat of lethal force
2. threat of major bodily harm
3. sexual assault
you're also allowed to protect a third party if they would be allowed to use deadly force for any of the three reasons above...
therefore, you have every right to shoot a man raping your wife...regardless if they're armed or not...
Greg

no i do not need to go back to CCW class, nor do i need another degree in Criminal Justice. however, you are correct. i was focusing more on the gun during my rant about gun control then what the law states about bodily harm. i appologize my mistake. bigwaylon, how long have you had your CCW?
 
Originally Posted by cburgin View Post
um yeah that is second degree murder and no where in there did you state that the other man had a gun. therefore 3 party life was not in full danger of death. i said, was being rapped at gun point


How do you rap somebody?
 
no i do not need to go back to CCW class, nor do i need another degree in Criminal Justice. however, you are correct. i was focusing more on the gun during my rant about gun control then what the law states about bodily harm. i appologize my mistake. bigwaylon, how long have you had your CCW?


don't have it...haven't even applied for it (thanks to the long wait just to get an "application appointment" in Meck Co)...

but, I took the class 4/1/07, so everything was still fresh in my mind...:D...cause with one class under my belt, I must be an expert...;)

nothing personal...just wanting the facts to be in the post...

Greg
 
Very true, but think of it from this angle,
Since hindsight is 20/20 there's no way to know how any lives would be saved by that action.
The newspaper headlines will scream "Two Innocent Lives Lost in Gun Battle On Campus"
Lawmakers would have a field day with that scenario.
hind sight is not 20/20.........its more like x-ray vision.......:rolleyes:
 
doing some thinking over the last few days...

If you go through all the paper work, all the training and such to be able to conceal a weapon, Id take that as being mature enough to carry one, whatever age you are....

I can also see how I would feel alot better carrying a weapon, even around campus (out in the parking deck at 2am is a bit creepy...)
 
thats why you dont run around looking...that is trying to be a hero, your not trying to be a hero, your just defending from him comming to you and people with you. also, a magazine change takes MAYBE 3 seconds if your slow. jumping him? no, a well aimed, controlled pair from your own pistol? very feasable

http://www.drlaura.com/blog/2007/04/20/a-lesson-from-the-massacre-at-virginia-tech/

Dr. Laura said:
From listening to the reports on this heinous occurrence, I heard repeatedly that the shooter had to reload several times and went from classroom to classroom. As a military mom, I immediately wished that our young people had the same obligation and experience that all young folks in Israel have: two years of military training and service. Those reloading and trolling periods were windows of opportunity that only young folks trained militarily would have been able to use to subdue or terminate the perp and save many lives.
 
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