YATFR: The science of wood

Fabrik8 said:
That's fine, I'm not defending metal plates, only the fact they are part of an engineered assembly. There's nothing wrong with site built trusses, assuming proper design/engineering and construction. Any method is fine, as long as it's engineered properly; I have no dog in that fight. Not an argument I care about.

That's not what we're talking about here though, we're talking about about Fuller-designed, Fuller-built, non-engineered, non-approved trusses.
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I would use engineered trusses if I we're building a simple house just for ease and speed. My claim was strictly fire related.
 
shawn said:
Now you're just trying to start some shit.
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Won't go into a bow framed building that's on fire for sure, and it has no steel plates. Science of building construction and fire stuff. Kinda like science of metals.
 
GotWood said:
I would rather be in a burning house with hand built trusses than one with engineered stamp and plates. Assuming they are built properly of course.
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Care to explain?
 
Ok fine I'll play.
When we built log homes, we bought them trusses then we started making them. Every spot where the braces meet you use 12"x12" plywood on both sides with glue then 8d nails...stronger truss than those crap "engineered" ones. How many trusses have you set?? I've set enough to know and see and feel the difference and any building inspector will approve a well built truss over other bought ones cause they know they're twice as strong. 5yrs I built log homes and that was the trusses we did on most of them, unless we done rafters on certain few for the out of ordinary roof designs.
Them trusses you buy are strong obviously but building one with my mentioned method is so much stronger and easier to put up. Try hanging a 26'long truss by yourself with little metal plates vs one like I built and you'll see the difference
 
Fabrik8 said:
That's not what we're talking about here though, we're talking about about Fuller-designed, Fuller-built, non-engineered, non-approved trusses.
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Btw I have way more skill in wood building than metal. I might build a ghetto buggy for cost sake but I can build a house/cabin/garage/pole barn better than my metal work. I done it professionally for 5yrs and was dam good at it...it ain't rocket science either
 
RatLabGuy said:
Care to explain?
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The theory is that the metal plates will weaken and fail with heat sooner than plywood and nailed trusses.

On the other hand, if a fire is that hot it's safe to say the structure is a goner and unsafe to be in anyway. It's time to stand at a window and blow it apart with a 2.5" line rather than be inside with nothing to save.
 
awheelterd said:
The theory is that the metal plates will weaken and fail with heat sooner than plywood and nailed trusses.

On the other hand, if a fire is that hot it's safe to say the structure is a goner and unsafe to be in anyway. It's time to stand at a window and blow it apart with a 2.5" line rather than be inside with nothing to save.
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Kinda right. Plates do fail faster
If the plates aren't there so no fear is failure, the same fire load will not compromise the structure therefore allow us that like to run into burning buildings to run into said burning building and extinguish the fire and save a life and/or property.
 
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@marty79 Im not going to argue on construction knowledge with you but may offer some advise. Dont discount the knowledge others. I go to construction sites everyday and have since '95. Im still learning. I hope i never get to the point that i know it all.
 
Sad part about this thread that I like is: proves just because something is "engineered" doesn't mean it's the best way. Building trusses I learned that long time ago and I've seen that in the off roading world as well
 
sawdoff said:
@marty79 Im not going to argue on construction knowledge with you but may offer some advise. Dont discount the knowledge others. I go to construction sites everyday and have since '95. Im still learning. I hope i never get to the point that i know it all.
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Hey I never claimed to know it all, I don't. But I know how to build a darn strong roof trusses and garage
 
marty79 said:
proves just because something is "engineered" doesn't mean it's the best way.
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The definition of engineering is the application of science and mathematics to design something to serve a specific purpose. Is your argument that you're in favor of saying "fukitol" and winging it? I'm not sure what alternative to "engineering" you're imagining.
 
shawn said:
The definition of engineering is the application of science and mathematics to design something to serve a specific purpose. Is your argument that you're in favor of saying "fukitol" and winging it? I'm not sure what alternative to "engineering" you're imagining.
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I guess I'm referring to everyone always putting engineers up so high (no offense to any) that if it's not stamped or approved engineered stuff it's not as good when clearly it's not always or ever the best that's my point. I've met so many builders back in the day that didn't like the "engineered" trusses and many inspectors that felt same way.
I personally have met some "I'm an engineer" and yeah, you clearly get paid for your title not your skill. Too much else to type on my phone but that's that
 
To those engineers who do have mad skills, keep doing what you do. Your not part of that club mentioned
 
marty79 said:
I guess I'm referring to everyone always putting engineers up so high
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I would love to know what world it is where this occurs. I've been an engineer for at least a month and can't recall any ever viewing me as higher than them because of it.
 
jeepinmatt said:
I would love to know what world it is where this occurs. I've been an engineer for at least a month and can't recall any ever viewing me as higher than them because of it.
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Good lol, hope it stays that way for you. I have met too many of the opposite.
 
marty79 said:
Sad part about this thread that I like is: proves just because something is "engineered" doesn't mean it's the best way. Building trusses I learned that long time ago and I've seen that in the off roading world as well
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marty79 said:
When we built log homes, we bought them trusses then we started making them. Every spot where the braces meet you use 12"x12" plywood on both sides with glue then 8d nails...stronger truss than those crap "engineered" ones. How many trusses have you set?? I've set enough to know and see and feel the difference and any building inspector will approve a well built truss over other bought ones cause they know they're twice as strong. 5yrs I built log homes and that was the trusses we did on most of them, unless we done rafters on certain few for the out of ordinary roof designs.
Them trusses you buy are strong obviously but building one with my mentioned method is so much stronger and easier to put up. Try hanging a 26'long truss by yourself with little metal plates vs one like I built and you'll see the difference
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I'm not sure you're grasping the point here.

If someone did the calculations on the truss design and building method, and says "yep, it's good-to-go" and stamps it, and you build it to to that design, that's a safe and approved truss that's been engineered. Could be site built, could be manufactured, either way it should have some proper engineering calculations done to create the design.

That could be your truss (and with your assembly method), but no one (including you) did any design calculations for the given load, span, type of assembly, or anything like that. I'm not questioning your truss assembly method, I'm questioning the fact that you built a load-bearing structural system without any actual design work, which is against the law in many/most places to my knowledge. Your amazing assembly method, with proper design calculations to validate that you have what you need for strength, would easily make a great truss. You have only one of those two things.

I'll refer to my previous statement about metal plates. Those trusses are engineered, so they can say what kind of design load they have. You do not know that about your trusses, even though you think they are bulletproof and can support a cargo plane full of battle tanks, because no one has done that math. You do not know they're "twice as strong", because you don't know how strong they are, because there is zero information to say that. They could be stronger, they could be weaker, but you do not know.

The only information that you have to prove that they are strong enough is the fact that your roof hasn't collapsed. That is the limit of what you know about them. This is exactly the same concept as proving the strength of ice on a pond by walking on it. Either the ice supports your weight or it doesn't, but you don't know anything more than that.

My original point was that you've saved money by building your own trusses without paying for the legally required (in most areas) truss engineering. That's not a legitimate way to save money, as most people legally can't/won't build a truss without a proper stamped design. I'm not sure how we strayed that far, but that's probably my fault.
 
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Fabrik8 said:
You do not know they're "twice as strong", because you don't know how strong they are, because there is zero information to say that. They could be stronger, they could be weaker, but you do not know.

The only information that you have to prove that they are strong enough is the fact that your roof hasn't collapsed.
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ehh see your point. But then there's the reality aspect. Dude back in the day things got built and built tough and strong lasted for decades and centuries without any "code enforcers" to put a bill on some paper to suit their drive for money and power and control. If you think for one minute that building permits actually serve a purpose other than money hungry state municipality than your blind as the rest of the sheeple. All they care about is money not that person's interest or safetey of them or others :rolleyes:.
And yeah I know, my boss knew, other contractors know and inspectors know they're twice as strong without some mathematical paper to be printed or made official stating this. Why? Cause it's common sense knowledge of the trade to take a simple truss design and beef it/modify it to be double the strength or more.
 
marty79 said:
ehh see your point. But then there's the reality aspect. Dude back in the day things got built and built tough and strong lasted for decades and centuries without any "code enforcers" to put a bill on some paper to suit their drive for money and power and control. If you think for one minute that building permits actually serve a purpose other than money hungry state municipality than your blind as the rest of the sheeple. All they care about is money not that person's interest or safetey of them or others :rolleyes:.
And yeah I know, my boss knew, other contractors know and inspectors know they're twice as strong without some mathematical paper to be printed or made official stating this. Why? Cause it's common sense knowledge of the trade to take a simple truss design and beef it/modify it to be double the strength or more.
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All this, after we just got done talking about your illegal carports falling down in a snow strorm...
 
Wood is stronger than steel if you use enough of it. That's the science of wood AND metals.
 
Fabrik8 said:
I'm not sure you're grasping the point here.

If someone did the calculations on the truss design and building method, and says "yep, it's good-to-go" and stamps it, and you build it to to that design, that's a safe and approved truss that's been engineered. Could be site built, could be manufactured, either way it should have some proper engineering calculations done to create the design.

That could be your truss (and with your assembly method), but no one (including you) did any design calculations for the given load, span, type of assembly, or anything like that. I'm not questioning your truss assembly method, I'm questioning the fact that you built a load-bearing structural system without any actual design work, which is against the law in many/most places to my knowledge. Your amazing assembly method, with proper design calculations to validate that you have what you need for strength, would easily make a great truss. You have only one of those two things.

I'll refer to my previous statement about metal plates. Those trusses are engineered, so they can say what kind of design load they have. You do not know that about your trusses, even though you think they are bulletproof and can support a cargo plane full of battle tanks, because no one has done that math. You do not know they're "twice as strong", because you don't know how strong they are, because there is zero information to say that. They could be stronger, they could be weaker, but you do not know.

The only information that you have to prove that they are strong enough is the fact that your roof hasn't collapsed. That is the limit of what you know about them. This is exactly the same concept as proving the strength of ice on a pond by walking on it. Either the ice supports your weight or it doesn't, but you don't know anything more than that.

My original point was that you've saved money by building your own trusses without paying for the legally required (in most areas) truss engineering. That's not a legitimate way to save money. I'm not sure how we strayed that far, but that's probably my fault.
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Engineering has been done, calculations made. I doubt there is anything man made that wasn't engineered in some way. A 2x6 is rated to carry X load over Y span. These are known because an engineer tested and backs his findings with data. You won't find an engineer stamp on a 2x6 though.
 
marty79 said:
If you think for one minute that building permits actually serve a purpose other than money hungry state municipality than your blind as the rest of the sheeple. All they care about is money not that person's interest or safetey of them or others :rolleyes:.
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It's actually to keep people from doing whatever they want without any oversight or regulation, so ultimately it keeps people from ignoring all the rules if don't like what the rules say.
 
jeepinmatt said:
Wood is stronger than steel if you use enough of it. That's the science of wood AND metals.
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Basic science of wood: (BS of metals spinoff) Chapter 4, section 3; if you take some thin plywood and double or triple it's thickness with plenty of overlap, it becomes plenty strong enough within a reasonable measure, to hold up to anything I or anyone else could ever throw at it.
 
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