Donaldt Rump v Hillary debate

My problem with taxes is the families like my step sister, has 2 kids and a husband. They get back like $8k+ a year and they made like $20k collectively, he dropped out of college and was getting federal loans or grant money. Like completely shady and grimy stuff. But in the Army I ended up getting $1300 back when I paid more in than they did.

I get it you're trying to keep most your money you earned. But the "poor" fucks manipulating the system or just getting breaks bc of multiple kids and low income to where they get several thousand and just blow it on dumb shit pisses me off, I felt like that was worse then some of the dumb shit the govt spent on Army stuff.


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drkelly said:
Re-read the post by @Pacfanweb . He said a national sales tax.
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No, he said that not paying Fed income tax wasn't a big deal, because those people paid sales and property taxes, which are actually state-levied and locality-levied taxes, not Federal taxes.

He then said that he thought a Fed sales tax would be a good idea, because people would pay proportionally according to their income. But that's only true in a vacuum. Fed sales taxes wouldn't be sufficiently progressive, so all of the fed sales tax proposals involve tax credits to lower income people. They also don't take into account direct payments. So you're not necessarily widening the tax base or changing the distribution. All you're doing is changing when the tax is collected. And since it would take a Constitutional Amendment to enact, it's a nonstarter from a policy perspective.

I heard a Hillary ad on the radio yesterday. She promised a bunch of free shit to whoever voted for her. I heard Obama shilling for AG Cooper on the radio this morning. He was promising a bunch of free shit to whoever voted for Cooper.
 
shawn said:
No, he said that not paying Fed income tax wasn't a big deal, because those people paid sales and property taxes, which are actually state-levied and locality-levied taxes, not Federal taxes.

He then said that he thought a Fed sales tax would be a good idea, because people would pay proportionally according to their income. But that's only true in a vacuum. Fed sales taxes wouldn't be sufficiently progressive, so all of the fed sales tax proposals involve tax credits to lower income people. They also don't take into account direct payments. So you're not necessarily widening the tax base or changing the distribution. All you're doing is changing when the tax is collected. And since it would take a Constitutional Amendment to enact, it's a nonstarter from a policy perspective.

I heard a Hillary ad on the radio yesterday. She promised a bunch of free shit to whoever voted for her. I heard Obama shilling for AG Cooper on the radio this morning. He was promising a bunch of free shit to whoever voted for Cooper.
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He proposed a national sales tax.
 
superman27344 said:
I really hope that some day I have enough money to worry about how I can get out of paying the death tax, or rather my relatives paying it.
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I hope a close family member of mine gets into that problem!
 
drkelly said:
When/if you get close to or exceed the death tax exemption amount (currently about $5.5 million), you can give your children, their spouses, and your grand children $14,000 each every year. Split your assets up between you and your wife and you can each do it. I think you have two kids. Assuming they both get married and each have two kids, that will be eight people you and your wife can each give $14,000 to every year. That is $224,000 you can give away to your descendants every year to help reduce how much Uncle Sam gets when the grim reaper comes calling.
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I'm not saying I've known anyone to do this, and I acknowledge potential legal issues and penalties if anyone were ever to get the terrible idea to do something so ridiculous. That being said, I've heard folklore of older people liquidating and investing in safes that are strategically placed around their homes and each heir understands which safe is theirs, along with any potential contents. With the understanding that older person can visit and admire those safes at any time.
 
rockcity said:
That sounds reasonable and I agree it would be fair. The only issue with a consumption tax is that people tend to slow down on purchasing things and therefore, the economy could slow down. It will eventually rebound to normal levels but not after takin a hit.

I believe a balance between a flat tax and a consumption tax exists, I just don't know what it is.
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The balance lies in doing away with the income tax. People would have more money to spend. Consumption tax would balance it out and everyone would pay also eliminating the IRS and eliminating government waste that they create
 
GotWood said:
I hope a close family member of mine gets into that problem!
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Ill never have to worry about it.My folks are both in their early 60's and not in the best of health.They have worked their whole lives,dad has made $20+ plus an hour at least half of his adult life and mom has made average to slighty above average pay all her life but thanks to my sister/s kids and their poor management skills it'll probably left to me and Tonya to bury them.
 
shawn said:
No, he said that not paying Fed income tax wasn't a big deal, because those people paid sales and property taxes, which are actually state-levied and locality-levied taxes, not Federal taxes..
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That's not what I said. I was responding to someone who guesstimated the amount of people who don't pay federal income tax.

I looked up and posted the exact figure, and he was very close. And then I added "that's just income tax", and "everyone pays SOME tax...sales/property/etc". Nowhere did I say or imply that "not paying Fed income tax wasn't a big deal".


Then I talked about alternatives like the Fair Tax or National Sales tax, which had really nothing to do with the specific post I quoted, but was just a general "and while we're on this subject"

Just wanted to clear that up.
 
I listened to some of that debate by candlelight, on a dewalt radio cause the power was out. I only heard the crowd cheer and the moderators admonish them, after more than a few of trumps statements............yet the media says she won round 2? trump is not perfect, but who is? I don't see how he could be worse than her for the job.
 
Pacfanweb said:
I looked up and posted the exact figure, and he was very close. And then I added "that's just income tax", and "everyone pays SOME tax...sales/property/etc". Nowhere did I say or imply that "not paying Fed income tax wasn't a big deal".
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That's fair. I read it as dismissive, but that was just my reading of it.
 
shawn said:
That's fair. I read it as dismissive, but that was just my reading of it.
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It's cool.

My point actually was, I see the "x% of the people pay no taxes" all the time, and that's not really true. They might pay no INCOME taxes, but EVERYONE pays all the other taxes. That's really what I meant when I said "that's just income tax".

So while that proverbial poor family that gets a big refund, they promptly spend it (yeah, they're bad with money....why do you think they are poor to begin with?) on items and pay sales taxes, food taxes, etc.
Everyone buys gas. And as far as I'm concerned, state inspections are just taxes.

If we, the people knew our REAL effective tax rate, and how much of every dollar is really taken somewhere along the way in taxes, there would/should be a revolution.
I'd be willing to bet that it's up near 70 cents of each dollar, if you follow it along the line.
 
Pacfanweb said:
It's cool.

My point actually was, I see the "x% of the people pay no taxes" all the time, and that's not really true. They might pay no INCOME taxes, but EVERYONE pays all the other taxes. That's really what I meant when I said "that's just income tax".

So while that proverbial poor family that gets a big refund, they promptly spend it (yeah, they're bad with money....why do you think they are poor to begin with?) on items and pay sales taxes, food taxes, etc.
Everyone buys gas. And as far as I'm concerned, state inspections are just taxes.

.
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The trick here is that they don't pay taxes on their food. It's all free and furnished by us. They do, of course, pay it on other stuff.
 
justjeepin86 said:
The trick here is that they don't pay taxes on their food. It's all free and furnished by us. They do, of course, pay it on other stuff.
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Isn't unprepared food not taxed in NC?
E.g. I assume you're referring to those that use food stamps. If I recall correct on the food tax exemption then that applies to everybody.
Of course the food itself is still free...
 
Pacfanweb said:
It's cool.

My point actually was, I see the "x% of the people pay no taxes" all the time, and that's not really true. They might pay no INCOME taxes, but EVERYONE pays all the other taxes. That's really what I meant when I said "that's just income tax".

So while that proverbial poor family that gets a big refund, they promptly spend it (yeah, they're bad with money....why do you think they are poor to begin with?) on items and pay sales taxes, food taxes, etc.
Everyone buys gas. And as far as I'm concerned, state inspections are just taxes.

If we, the people knew our REAL effective tax rate, and how much of every dollar is really taken somewhere along the way in taxes, there would/should be a revolution.
I'd be willing to bet that it's up near 70 cents of each dollar, if you follow it along the line.
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It's worth noting that a lot of the folks who pay nothing to Feds may still pay/owe state taxes b/c not all credits & breaks occur at both levels. so at least there's that. State taxes are of course much lower.
Also, everybody (with earned income) pays SS and unemployment tax, regardless of income level. That is sort of a tax. And since Congress has a habit of occasionally raiding the SS funds to cover budget shortfalls, you can kinda sorta say they pay a little bit into the Fed. Now, whether it's as much as they'll withdraw later is debatable.
 
Only if you do pay state taxes then you can get those refunded by the feds. Even if you had no tax burden. Yes the feds will allow you to go true negative,m not just refund what you've paid in.


Now let me tell the good folks of NC4x4 a little death tax story. A college friend of mine lives in Wisconsin. He doesnt live very far from Milwaukee, today, but when he grew up 30 years ago he lived some 50 miles from what was considered Milwaukee. Urban sprawl did its thing.
His grandad started a dairy farm in the years after the great depression to supply many of the famous Wisconsin cheese producers and local markets. They have done a good job of building a small family business. Anyone who knows the ag business however knows margins are thin and profits are scarce. I don't know the exact dollars and cents but I know his farm encompasses right at 500 acres. Has 6 houses on it that house his grandparents, his parents, his aunt and uncle, him and his wife, his brother and finally a cousin. Plus several barns and a bunch of cows. They employ about 35, mostly immigrant Honduran, workers and the farm was covered by a Wisconsin homestead property tax exemption.

Last December, grandpa went to Church one Sunday, ate Sunday lunch and sat down in his rocker for an afternoon nap as was his tradition. Only day he'd nap and only day he wouldn't work. Well grandpa died there in that rocker.

This is a modern day American Roots family. Don't get me wrong they have all done very well. Just 2 years ago my friend, Jerry, was able to buy a new (used) truck and his family has a nice 1500sqft home. But they arent rich. There simply isnt that much money there.

But the business was in grandpa's name. The land around Milwaukee county is currently valued around $5,000/ acre. The homes all have a value as does the business, the equipment and livestock.

All told the IRS said that value was $7,000,000. Jerry's family faced a $4,500,000 tax burden due to the death of grandpa. They decided to sell off 100 acres to cover some/most of the debt. To do so would require rezoning, and payment of back taxes for 20 years because of the homestead exemption and other assorted government fees all totaling just over $2,00,000. The probate attorneys are doing their thing and trying to stave off the wolf. Currently a ful liquidation auction is planned for the spring. Jerry's dad committed suicide two months ago. The family blames the stress of this whole deal and says he snapped.

Now many realize they could have and should have structured several things better. That this whole situation was avoidable. But its the world we live in. If you fail to hide your life's work from the government they will take it all. An authority that forces its subjects to lie is bound to fail as the subjects may not now when to quit lieing.
 
Ron said:
Only if you do pay state taxes then you can get those refunded by the feds. Even if you had no tax burden. Yes the feds will allow you to go true negative,m not just refund what you've paid in.


Now let me tell the good folks of NC4x4 a little death tax story. A college friend of mine lives in Wisconsin. He doesnt live very far from Milwaukee, today, but when he grew up 30 years ago he lived some 50 miles from what was considered Milwaukee. Urban sprawl did its thing.
His grandad started a dairy farm in the years after the great depression to supply many of the famous Wisconsin cheese producers and local markets. They have done a good job of building a small family business. Anyone who knows the ag business however knows margins are thin and profits are scarce. I don't know the exact dollars and cents but I know his farm encompasses right at 500 acres. Has 6 houses on it that house his grandparents, his parents, his aunt and uncle, him and his wife, his brother and finally a cousin. Plus several barns and a bunch of cows. They employ about 35, mostly immigrant Honduran, workers and the farm was covered by a Wisconsin homestead property tax exemption.

Last December, grandpa went to Church one Sunday, ate Sunday lunch and sat down in his rocker for an afternoon nap as was his tradition. Only day he'd nap and only day he wouldn't work. Well grandpa died there in that rocker.

This is a modern day American Roots family. Don't get me wrong they have all done very well. Just 2 years ago my friend, Jerry, was able to buy a new (used) truck and his family has a nice 1500sqft home. But they arent rich. There simply isnt that much money there.

But the business was in grandpa's name. The land around Milwaukee county is currently valued around $5,000/ acre. The homes all have a value as does the business, the equipment and livestock.

All told the IRS said that value was $7,000,000. Jerry's family faced a $4,500,000 tax burden due to the death of grandpa. They decided to sell off 100 acres to cover some/most of the debt. To do so would require rezoning, and payment of back taxes for 20 years because of the homestead exemption and other assorted government fees all totaling just over $2,00,000. The probate attorneys are doing their thing and trying to stave off the wolf. Currently a ful liquidation auction is planned for the spring. Jerry's dad committed suicide two months ago. The family blames the stress of this whole deal and says he snapped.

Now many realize they could have and should have structured several things better. That this whole situation was avoidable. But its the world we live in. If you fail to hide your life's work from the government they will take it all. An authority that forces its subjects to lie is bound to fail as the subjects may not now when to quit lieing.
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Briley farms off of 264 on the way to Washington from Greenville is going through the same thing right now from my understanding. Several hundred acres are being auctioned off because of backed taxes.
 
Ron said:
Only if you do pay state taxes then you can get those refunded by the feds. Even if you had no tax burden.
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Not quite refunded - just deducted from your liability. So if you paid $1000 to NC, you don't have to pay Fed tax on that $1000. Saves you like $150. But that's only if you itemize. If you're poor and don't own much, typically you just do the standard deduction and it won't apply.
Ron said:
Now let me tell the good folks of NC4x4 a little death tax story. A college friend of mine lives in Wisconsin. He doesnt live very far from Milwaukee, today, but when he grew up 30 years ago he lived some 50 miles from what was considered Milwaukee. Urban sprawl did its thing.
His grandad started a dairy farm in the years after the great depression to supply many of the famous Wisconsin cheese producers and local markets. They have done a good job of building a small family business. Anyone who knows the ag business however knows margins are thin and profits are scarce. I don't know the exact dollars and cents but I know his farm encompasses right at 500 acres. Has 6 houses on it that house his grandparents, his parents, his aunt and uncle, him and his wife, his brother and finally a cousin. Plus several barns and a bunch of cows. They employ about 35, mostly immigrant Honduran, workers and the farm was covered by a Wisconsin homestead property tax exemption.

Last December, grandpa went to Church one Sunday, ate Sunday lunch and sat down in his rocker for an afternoon nap as was his tradition. Only day he'd nap and only day he wouldn't work. Well grandpa died there in that rocker.

This is a modern day American Roots family. Don't get me wrong they have all done very well. Just 2 years ago my friend, Jerry, was able to buy a new (used) truck and his family has a nice 1500sqft home. But they arent rich. There simply isnt that much money there.

But the business was in grandpa's name. The land around Milwaukee county is currently valued around $5,000/ acre. The homes all have a value as does the business, the equipment and livestock.

All told the IRS said that value was $7,000,000. Jerry's family faced a $4,500,000 tax burden due to the death of grandpa. They decided to sell off 100 acres to cover some/most of the debt. To do so would require rezoning, and payment of back taxes for 20 years because of the homestead exemption and other assorted government fees all totaling just over $2,00,000. The probate attorneys are doing their thing and trying to stave off the wolf. Currently a ful liquidation auction is planned for the spring. Jerry's dad committed suicide two months ago. The family blames the stress of this whole deal and says he snapped.

Now many realize they could have and should have structured several things better. That this whole situation was avoidable. But its the world we live in. If you fail to hide your life's work from the government they will take it all. An authority that forces its subjects to lie is bound to fail as the subjects may not now when to quit lieing.
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And that is why the estate tax is horseshit. Saw this happen to a coworker too when her mom died, lost the old farm.
Like in your friends case, it seems to hit the most in areas where there's been a boom in land value.

It's really stupid that we have laws and regulations that basically force people to go rogue and avoid them.
 
RatLabGuy said:
Not quite refunded - just deducted from your liability. So if you paid $1000 to NC, you don't have to pay Fed tax on that $1000. Saves you like $150. But that's only if you itemize. If you're poor and don't own much, typically you just do the standard deduction and it won't apply.
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Again, Dave you have been doing the good and proper thing too long.
There are tax loopholes for the impoverished where people get back MORE than they pay in. I.E You make 10,000 you pay in 1,500 and you get an $8,000 check from the IRS.

Here is a pic just for you. I took it several months back and just forgot to share until now. This thread reminded me. Do some quick research and you will quickly see whats wrong with the pic. Only its whats wrong with the system not the pic.


tax pix.jpg
 
I wonder just how much money the govt could save by closing that bullshit loop hole. I know some might actually use to to take care of their kids..... but I've never met anyone in my life that does saves their tax refund to use towards their kids. Instead they just spend it wildly... just caught word my step sister husband just bought a 2013 z71 extended cab on 37s. They had to hit my parents up for money to pay their rent the other day.

Hell my 33 year old sister hit my parents up for rent money after she got a whole sleeve(tattoos) done. Best part is she's an economics major and a senior at ECU, on the Bernie Sanders train preaching free college. Sad thing is she married her now ex husband when she got preggo and he signed his GI Bill over to her.

So if you wanna know what's happening in classrooms that aren't logically based such as engineering, construction management and what not, they are just pushing a liberal agenda. I've seen it with my own eyes in my classes. Seriously a 17 year old baby faced kid wearing a Bernie Sanders shirt and I promise you he's never paid taxes or held a job in his life (trig class). In my English class a 18 year old wearing a Hilary shirt and he wants to be a journalist.... I don't get it I don't understand why.

I grew up in a very non-racist house hold, church till I was 12ish, dad build a company of from the ground and walked away from it during my parents divorce. Shit I worked for my dad's construction company for $2 an hour when I was 8 years old because I wanted to buy an RC car. My sisters never worked till their got their license but did some baby sitting before that. My middle sister is even more fiscally responsible than I am, and she never held a job till she left the house at 17. But my oldest sister is the only liberal has never held a full time position job ever, pretty sure she's never wrote a resume and pursued a career, and just doesn't get it. They just don't get how to be responsible or realize there is a consequence to every action.

Sorry that turned into a rant
 
Ron said:
Again, Dave you have been doing the good and proper thing too long.
There are tax loopholes for the impoverished where people get back MORE than they pay in. I.E You make 10,000 you pay in 1,500 and you get an $8,000 check from the IRS.

Here is a pic just for you. I took it several months back and just forgot to share until now. This thread reminded me. Do some quick research and you will quickly see whats wrong with the pic. Only its whats wrong with the system not the pic.


View attachment 229751
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When did I say that wasn't the case?
I was specifically talking about the deduction for state tax at the federal level. THAT is a deduction, not a credit. Not a dollar for dollar "refund" like you said.
 
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I know it sounds crazy, but I'm becoming more of a fan of the basic minimum income to address this while saving overall costs.
The Libertarian Case for a Basic Income
Yes, it seems like it encourages freeloading, but at least its a fair(er) distribution and can cut down on all the tax code BS while saving costs. Not perfect, certainly has issues but at least its another way of thinking.
 
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