Donaldt Rump v Hillary debate

I know it sounds crazy, but I'm becoming more of a fan of the basic minimum income to address this while saving overall costs.
The Libertarian Case for a Basic Income
Yes, it seems like it encourages freeloading, but at least its a fair(er) distribution and can cut down on all the tax code BS while saving costs. Not perfect, certainly has issues but at least its another way of thinking.
I've pondered the case for a minimum basic income as well. The administrative efficiency would be great, but it relies on the fiscal responsibility that is often absent in the entitlement class.
 
I've pondered the case for a minimum basic income as well. The administrative efficiency would be great, but it relies on the fiscal responsibility that is often absent in the entitlement class.

One might argue (or agree..?) that it's hard to be fiscally responsible with money that is given to you instead of earned. ;)
 
One might argue (or agree..?) that it's hard to be fiscally responsible with money that is given to you instead of earned. ;)


I started to realize this fact when I worked at Cingular Wireless and they started giving out "free phones" with a contract. People would come in, get the "free" phone and give it to their kids. When they came back in a week later with it broken (from obvious abuse like being thrown across the room, dropped in water, etc), they would want another free phone. Well, this one would cost them $400 or more because they were already on contract from the first one. One they would have to pay full price for, they would treat like fine china.

Something that is free, has no perceived value attached to it.
 
Always goes back to 'don't feed the animals' for me.


Sounds great and all.
Until you start to look at the bigger picture. So you 'dont feed the animals' you let the poor grow poorer and punish them for their bad choices. They raise a generation that knows nothing else. A generation that thinks free loading, stealing and outlaw is the norm. Now you punish that generation for living the only life they've ever known. They reproduce and the ghetto grows. One day the ghetto grows so large you cant control it. Then the new norm is the old slum.

I have a biased view here. I grew up in (free) government housing, eating (free) government cheese (good) and peanut butter (horrific), had free lunch at school, was a ward of the state for 5 years. Somewhere along the way it planted a burning desire in my soul to better myself. When I bought my first house at 21 it was the first time in my life I had ever lived in a house. Today I live a comfortable upper middle class existence. I'd love to tell you I am some American success story. That what I did anyone can and should do. But I can't escape or dodge these truths. At 5 years old before I knew what initiative was I was the smartest kid in my class. I was moved from kindergarten to first and then second grade, at 5. I can't deny that some existential factor gave me that advantage. I'd love to. But I cant. The truth is I didnt do it all on my own. Something helped me. And if that free education wasnt provided, and those free meals then I know where I'd be.

The dividing question is: 'how do we offer a hand up to those willing and able to take it, and eliminate waste from those determined to abuse it'?

I dont know the answer. But abandoning an entire economic class isnt the right answer and will have disastrous consequences. Yet I fully recognize the fact that hand fed animals will starve to death while sleeping on a pile of food.

Someone smarter than I will have to tackle this one. But I think the answer lies, like so many things, in the difficult. A government entity handing down food and money without a human touch doesnt help. Come on down Mr. Politician. Serve in the soup line. Sleep under the bridge. Walk the walk.Show people you care. Show them a way out. Maybe a few more will follow.
 
Sounds great and all.
Until you start to look at the bigger picture. So you 'dont feed the animals' you let the poor grow poorer and punish them for their bad choices. They raise a generation that knows nothing else. A generation that thinks free loading, stealing and outlaw is the norm. Now you punish that generation for living the only life they've ever known. They reproduce and the ghetto grows. One day the ghetto grows so large you cant control it. Then the new norm is the old slum.

I have a biased view here. I grew up in (free) government housing, eating (free) government cheese (good) and peanut butter (horrific), had free lunch at school, was a ward of the state for 5 years. Somewhere along the way it planted a burning desire in my soul to better myself. When I bought my first house at 21 it was the first time in my life I had ever lived in a house. Today I live a comfortable upper middle class existence. I'd love to tell you I am some American success story. That what I did anyone can and should do. But I can't escape or dodge these truths. At 5 years old before I knew what initiative was I was the smartest kid in my class. I was moved from kindergarten to first and then second grade, at 5. I can't deny that some existential factor gave me that advantage. I'd love to. But I cant. The truth is I didnt do it all on my own. Something helped me. And if that free education wasnt provided, and those free meals then I know where I'd be.

The dividing question is: 'how do we offer a hand up to those willing and able to take it, and eliminate waste from those determined to abuse it'?

I dont know the answer. But abandoning an entire economic class isnt the right answer and will have disastrous consequences. Yet I fully recognize the fact that hand fed animals will starve to death while sleeping on a pile of food.

Someone smarter than I will have to tackle this one. But I think the answer lies, like so many things, in the difficult. A government entity handing down food and money without a human touch doesnt help. Come on down Mr. Politician. Serve in the soup line. Sleep under the bridge. Walk the walk.Show people you care. Show them a way out. Maybe a few more will follow.

1) I wasn't equating the 'animals' to folks that could legitimately use help, and do so without abusing the system.
2) The poor are actively getting poorer and it's relatively apparent quite a few areas do think the 'ghetto' is the norm. But again, I almost have to chuckle at this if you think about the stereotype for the entitled handout types. 'Poor' there means they don't have the newest phone...or had to go with 22's instead of two-fo's.
3) While I've never been a ward of the state, we've discussed our similar childhoods, several times I remember no water, no electricity, poaching for food. Old man hit it big for about 3 years with his business, didn't know how to handle his money, pissed it all away and before you know it, living in a house they can't afford to get the black mold out of and I'm taking out student loans to make sure my siblings can eat because the IRS was taking $3k/month for 10 years. We all have sob stories we can tell. I played ball with guys that had it significantly worse than I did, just takes a little ambition. But I'll agree, it's easier said than done...and it's much easier for folks to become a product of their environment than overcome it.
4) I'm with you though, help the ones that deserve it and stop incentivizing the life of the handout. And I agree, someone smarter than I, will have to figure it out.
 
Can I just applaud both y'all in this little pissing contest? Y'all really came from nothing and really make me feel fortunate. So pat on the back to both of yall. And you both do show a unique perspective to the normal everyday trashy people who abuse the system rhetoric. And normally I do feel like you can tell who is not abusing or is abusing the system, and who really needs to assistance.

One thing my family made sure we did we feed the homeless with my uncles church up in Raleigh. And he was a big Whig at the EPA for some time and was a lobbyist there in the capital. Remember visiting him on field trips there. So he might be a mathematician and socially awkward looks like bean, but he did genuinely care about people and I'm hoping that factored into him being a lobbyist. They don't live all extravagant and I know they donated a shit ton to the church.


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The dividing question is: 'how do we offer a hand up to those willing and able to take it, and eliminate waste from those determined to abuse it'?

.

It won't be easy, but it needs to be "personal". It's easy to sit in a chair and write checks for people with other people's money with no accountability for where it's going. It takes stewardship to make responsible decisions with regards to other people's money - something that is long forgotten in Washington. Someone actually needs to meet with these individuals on a regular basis to make sure their situation is legit. Not just on an appointment basis where the person can "dress the part" and look poor for a day. Those individuals should be empowered to make informed decisions about the individual case. Continued food stamp allotments need to coincide with continued work search efforts. If the person is incapable of working, the social worker should know first hand why they are incapable of work, not just a rubber stamp on a page. The flip side should be true, too.... these social workers should also be empowered to spot areas where someone has a legitimate need that is not being met through their current program and assist there as well.

They need to be able to ask questions and if they aren't satisfied with the answers, they should be able to reject the applicant. I can't count the number of times someone came into our church seeking assistance from our Benevolent Fund reeking of cigarette smoke, but writing on their form that they have no income, but $500 a month food stamps. Last I knew, you can't buy smokes with food stamps, so the money is coming from somewhere. I was happy to be able to help legitimate requests from it, but weeding through the illegitimate ones definitely made me very jaded.
 
It won't be easy, but it needs to be "personal". It's easy to sit in a chair and write checks for people with other people's money with no accountability for where it's going. It takes stewardship to make responsible decisions with regards to other people's money - something that is long forgotten in Washington. Someone actually needs to meet with these individuals on a regular basis to make sure their situation is legit. Not just on an appointment basis where the person can "dress the part" and look poor for a day. Those individuals should be empowered to make informed decisions about the individual case. Continued food stamp allotments need to coincide with continued work search efforts. If the person is incapable of working, the social worker should know first hand why they are incapable of work, not just a rubber stamp on a page. The flip side should be true, too.... these social workers should also be empowered to spot areas where someone has a legitimate need that is not being met through their current program and assist there as well.

They need to be able to ask questions and if they aren't satisfied with the answers, they should be able to reject the applicant. I can't count the number of times someone came into our church seeking assistance from our Benevolent Fund reeking of cigarette smoke, but writing on their form that they have no income, but $500 a month food stamps. Last I knew, you can't buy smokes with food stamps, so the money is coming from somewhere. I was happy to be able to help legitimate requests from it, but weeding through the illegitimate ones definitely made me very jaded.


I can't like this enough.
Agreed 100%.

And I also believe if anyone is taking a check they need to contribute SOMETHING to society.
Maybe they are picking up trash on the road. Maybe they are helping at the DMV. Maybe they are washing cop and fire cars. Something for the betterment of us all. Make the juice require a little squeeze and many will just stop sticking their cup out.
 
And I also believe if anyone is taking a check they need to contribute SOMETHING to society.
Maybe they are picking up trash on the road. Maybe they are helping at the DMV. Maybe they are washing cop and fire cars. Something for the betterment of us all. Make the juice require a little squeeze and many will just stop sticking their cup out.

And I can't like this enough. Clean graffiti, fill the gaps at places that need volunteers, etc etc. For folks that legitimately want to find a job, searching is a full time job, so maybe a 3-6 month grace period. After that, it's time to pay your debt to society and work for what you're receiving. Everyone needs a hand now and then, and I have no issues giving it, just don't use my money in perpetuity.
 
I can't like this enough.
Agreed 100%.

And I also believe if anyone is taking a check they need to contribute SOMETHING to society.
Maybe they are picking up trash on the road. Maybe they are helping at the DMV. Maybe they are washing cop and fire cars. Something for the betterment of us all. Make the juice require a little squeeze and many will just stop sticking their cup out.


And I like your concept even more!!! How easy and fundamental that would be to building not only community, but providing necessary services that the community is having to foot the bill for anyway. Plus, people would be much less likely to riot and burn police vehicles if they just got done washing them for their food stamps. :)

WIN WIN WIN!!!!

Ironically, decades of political bickering can't resolve what Ron put forward in 5 minutes on a 4 wheel drive site.
 
I can't like this enough.
Agreed 100%.

And I also believe if anyone is taking a check they need to contribute SOMETHING to society.
Maybe they are picking up trash on the road. Maybe they are helping at the DMV. Maybe they are washing cop and fire cars. Something for the betterment of us all. Make the juice require a little squeeze and many will just stop sticking their cup out.
I actually believe that there should be a mandatory "community participation" for ALL citizens > 16. Or at most 18.
Say, 24 hours a year of some kind of activity that contributes to something outside of your own household. This could be a helping volunteer for a Scout troop, being in the PTA, helping shelve books at the local library, picking up trash on the highway, be a coach for rec ball team, or hell even just be the treasurer or pick up balls. Work w/ a couple other folks to build benches for your neighborhood park or school. And, if you are either employed or an employer for > 6 months, that counts also. Almost everybody on the board does something that counts already.And we can always find something for somebody to do.
Then those on public assistance must do 2-3x.
The challenge is of course administration...
 
I
And I also believe if anyone is taking a check they need to contribute SOMETHING to society.
Maybe they are picking up trash on the road. Maybe they are helping at the DMV. Maybe they are washing cop and fire cars. Something for the betterment of us all. Make the juice require a little squeeze and many will just stop sticking their cup out.

Also - wasn't this basically the premise of the WPA during the Depression?
Except they did REAL work.
 
Also - wasn't this basically the premise of the WPA during the Depression?
Except they did REAL work.

I think it was the entire premise of the TVA as well...
 
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For folks that legitimately want to find a job, searching is a full time job, so maybe a 3-6 month grace period. After that, it's time to pay your debt to society and work for what you're receiving. Everyone needs a hand now and then, and I have no issues giving it, just don't use my money in perpetuity.

In my Eutopia I'd shift this slightly. Finding a job is a full time job. You report to the job office for 2-3 hour shifts. These are scheduled much like a real job would be. We work on interviewing skills, or job search, or completing applications, anything to make you more marketable and more beneficial to a future employer. Since we are working hand in hand we are also aware of your interview schedule, in fact I want you to come by and let us prep you for your interview including making sure you are wearing appropriate attire, etc. On days when you don't have interviews scheduled, those days you do your community service.

Finally I incentivize employers but I add a carrot to make t worth sticking by the new found employees.
So if you draw 300/week on unemployment any amount we pay less than that is a win.
Lets take a min wage job. McDondalds has to pay $7.25/hr. In exchange for hiring our unemployed I am going too allow McDonalds to pay you only $5/hr and I am going to supplement you with an additional $5/hr for the first X days.
During this time, McDonalds saves $2.25/hr or $90/week/employee.
The unemployment office pays $5/hr or $200 instead of $300 so the "system" saves $100 week.
And the new employee makes an extra $2.75/hr or $110/week.

Everyone is happy.

The details need to be fleshed out to keep folks from just quitting as soon as they probation period is up and to keep employers from firing them as soon as their exemption period is up. But at a minimum it subsidizes on the job training. Gets people off the damn streets and into jobs and reduces the burden on the unemployment system.
 
I think it was the TVA...

WPA. Works Progress Administration.

A ski area in NH that I used to work for was originally developed during that time under the WPA. The federal government put up $6 for ever $1 raised by the local government in order to fund the Belknap Mountain Recreation area (now Gunstock Mountain Resort). Hundreds of locals were employed during the construction in an otherwise rural NH over an hour away from the major manufacturing center in Manchester. Staffing of the rec area also provided jobs once the mountain opened.

TVA was more along the lines of the government purchasing private utility companies and power infrastructure in claim of overcharging and the private sector being in control of major utilities. This in turn allowed the government to profit and charge citizens a lower rate than the private utility companies.
 
Finally I incentivize employers but I add a carrot to make t worth sticking by the new found employees.
So if you draw 300/week on unemployment any amount we pay less than that is a win.
Lets take a min wage job. McDondalds has to pay $7.25/hr. In exchange for hiring our unemployed I am going too allow McDonalds to pay you only $5/hr and I am going to supplement you with an additional $5/hr for the first X days.
During this time, McDonalds saves $2.25/hr or $90/week/employee.
The unemployment office pays $5/hr or $200 instead of $300 so the "system" saves $100 week.
And the new employee makes an extra $2.75/hr or $110/week.

Everyone is happy.
.
... until McDonalds realizes that if they fire all employees after X days, and hire new previously unemployed folks to replace them, then they can always save money.
Good idea though...
 
Sounds great and all.
Until you start to look at the bigger picture. So you 'dont feed the animals' you let the poor grow poorer and punish them for their bad choices. They raise a generation that knows nothing else. A generation that thinks free loading, stealing and outlaw is the norm. Now you punish that generation for living the only life they've ever known. They reproduce and the ghetto grows. One day the ghetto grows so large you cant control it. Then the new norm is the old slum.

Yes, but we have empirical evidence to show that's not how it works.
 
... until McDonalds realizes that if they fire all employees after X days, and hire new previously unemployed folks to replace them, then they can always save money.
Good idea though...


But even training a guy to cook fries takes time. If you actually have people working through Ron's system they are working towards a better future and possibly becoming employees that you want to have around.
 
... until McDonalds realizes that if they fire all employees after X days, and hire new previously unemployed folks to replace them, then they can always save money.
Good idea though...
You literally quoted my post and then cut out the part where I said precisely that
 
But even training a guy to cook fries takes time. If you actually have people working through Ron's system they are working towards a better future and possibly becoming employees that you want to have around.
Possibly, yes. And I agree that there is investment in people. And I would never operate a business this way. It just gives a pretty big incentive to cut off the guys who show any sign of not working out.
 
Possibly, yes. And I agree that there is investment in people. And I would never operate a business this way. It just gives a pretty big incentive to cut off the guys who show any sign of not working out.


Well we shouldnt require private companies to keep non producers.
They should wash out. Then after 5 or 10 washouts an individual is tagged as unwilling to cooperate and they lose their benefits entirely. Now my whole system just broke down.
 
Well we shouldnt require private companies to keep non producers.
They should wash out. Then after 5 or 10 washouts an individual is tagged as unwilling to cooperate and they lose their benefits entirely. Now my whole system just broke down.
The implosion of all my theories come from the fact that there will be non-partcipants forever and always, and you can't fire them from a nation.
 
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