Heim joint steering info

Loganwayne said:
Insert only has 4 main points of contact vs a round tube where there is 365 degree contact your suppose to create a v for the weld to flow in which you didn't do that is give the room for a strong weld

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Maybe so but square on the round insert allowed same 360 weld surface plus 4 corner holes that went under insert a bit plus plenty of thickness to do a second pass all around..remember I used to weld everything single pass and never had failure (prob cause I overkill on the welding lol) so now that I make double passes on major places I'm more than ever confident about it..lets not turn this into "about welding" please..just want to focus on the drag link
 
paradisePWoffrd said:
At a min u need to plug weld the bungs. Also it might still bend as the diameter is small.

I wouldnt mount both on top like that unless you are doing double shear.

The leaf springs arent going to let the drag link clear underneath them. Turn the wheels completely to the right. I bet there isnt room to get a draglink straight to the pitman. Dont try any z-bar shit.
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Ok cool good enough..and bending that tie rod will be some show to see and put on the day that happens. Machine shop foreman of 33yrs told me same thing..(you bend that on a rock and ill buy u a replacement lol)
 
Do it right and do it once.
You did neither and now your band aid(s) is going to be even more work and money than if you'd just done it right the first time.
But I, among others, said that already numerous times and you didn't listen.

Slow down John and do this the correct way.
 
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Jody Treadway said:
Do it right and do it once.
You did neither and now your band aid(s) is going to be even more work and money ey than if you'd just done it right the first time.
But I, among others, said that already numerous times and you didn't listen.

Slow down John and do this the correct way.
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I got it..will be fixed this weekend, pretty easy fix since drag link isn't actually made yet.
 
I could type out a whole explanation here of why square tube for a steering application is fucking retarded but I don't. Same goes for round tube inserts in square tube, however I'm too lazy for that shit and you probably wouldn't listen anyways. Please for the love of god do the shit the non ghetto rigged way.

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The proper way to run that drag link is to attach it to a high steer arm that is bolted to the top of the passenger side knuckle.
 
Jody Treadway said:
How are you going to fix it?
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Ill put tie rod under knuckles and drag link on top..then come out with that piece of square stock past the leaves then angle another piece up to the pitman arm welded onto the 1"solid tube with the adjustable piece on the end
 
That is absolutely not the safe, proper, correct or remotely acceptable way to do it.
But you have heard that already over and over and neglect to give experienced folks the respect of taking their advice to heart.
Carry on in whatever manner you wish.

I mean, it's only steering. What could go wrong?
 
drkelly said:
The proper way to run that drag link is to attach it to a high steer arm that is bolted to the top of the passenger side knuckle.
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We've been over this..I'm not spending money on a high steer arm that cost more than axle is worth..this is a junk hard to find axle good for temp running until bigger 60 or brake it, hope $ for 60 comes first lol (I'll have to lay off the skinny pedal hehe)
 
Jody Treadway said:
That is absolutely not the safe, proper, correct or remotely acceptable way to do it.
But you have heard that already over and over and neglect to give experienced folks the respect of taking their advice to heart.
Carry on in whatever manner you wish.

I mean, it's only steering. What could go wrong?
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Seriously I'm totally lost..this is hardly different from common steering setup except I chose 1/4wall square stock vs tubing...other than this I'm really confused. My stock d44crap lasted all the beating on that yellow rig for years so how can this be worse? Not arguing Jody but just don't understand the big deal..remember my hacked up cut in half then spliced together track bar with sch40 pipe? That everyone said was a deathtrap? Many many wheeling trips and still sitting in my shed no cracks or anything so this comparably to that mess is almost pro lol. But honestly clue me in on how/why this steering setup is so different than what I commonly see all over 4x4forums
 
marty79 said:
Seriously I'm totally lost..this is hardly different from common steering setup except I chose 1/4wall square stock vs tubing...other than this I'm really confused. My stock d44crap lasted all the beating on that yellow rig for years so how can this be worse? Not arguing Jody but just don't understand the big deal..remember my hacked up cut in half then spliced together track bar with sch40 pipe? That everyone said was a deathtrap? Many many wheeling trips and still sitting in my shed no cracks or anything so this comparably to that mess is almost pro lol. But honestly clue me in on how/why this steering setup is so different than what I commonly see all over 4x4forums
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1. Your shit is made out if square tube, never have I ever seen that. (Except for the ghetto fab thread on pirate)

2. Your running your tie rod in single shear. This is fine until you stack another joint on top of it. By doing this your essentially adding a whole lot out of the factory knuckle and bolt. It will fail at some point.

3. Most setups that are anything remotely similar to your set up are sua(spring under axle) rigs so there's more room for the steering.



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Chris_Keziah said:
I could type out a whole explanation here of why square tube for a steering application is fucking retarded but I don't. Same goes for round tube inserts in square tube, however I'm too lazy for that shit and you probably wouldn't listen anyways. Please for the love of god do the shit the non ghetto rigged way.

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With all due respect, I could have used 1/2"wall square stock and mandrel bent it and you would still tell me same thing..why? Cause I'm different and didn't use DOM!! I'm sorry but DOM tubing is so overrated in this hobby and I just tired of hearing "DOM or don't do it at all"..just sayin dude, many different ways to do one certain thing and I along with many many others have proven it too many times. And no even if I had money, I still would've done this square stock..I don't mind doing things different and when someone whose worked with machining steel for 33yrs tells me this is plenty strong, ill listen to that. We all know pipe/tubing/square stock differences debate on roll cages and other fabrication needs is the biggest ongoing debate and even engineers can't agree amongst each other, again just sayin true facts though.
 
Chris_Keziah said:
Your running your tie rod in single shear. This is fine until you stack another joint on top of it. By doing this your essentially adding a whole lot out of the factory knuckle and bolt. It will fail at some point.
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This is only mistake I made...and even then it wasn't a mistake cause its not built. I'm just learning so figured I would mock it up and ask away, no biggie. Flip it under and done..fixed in 5minutes.
Chris_Keziah said:
Your shit is made out if square tube, never have I ever seen that. (Except for the ghetto fab thread on pirate)
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Just cause its different don't mean its wrong..people have hard time accepting different..me, I love seeing different and working just as good, sometimes better for cheaper too so matter of opinion again!
 
marty79 said:
With all due respect, I could have used 1/2"wall square stock and mandrel bent it and you would still tell me same thing..why? Cause I'm different and didn't use DOM!! I'm sorry but DOM tubing is so overrated in this hobby and I just tired of hearing "DOM or don't do it at all"..just sayin dude, many different ways to do one certain thing and I along with many many others have proven it too many times. And no even if I had money, I still would've done this square stock..I don't mind doing things different and when someone whose worked with machining steel for 33yrs tells me this is plenty strong, ill listen to that. We all know pipe/tubing/square stock differences debate on roll cages and other fabrication needs is the biggest ongoing debate and even engineers can't agree amongst each other, again just sayin true facts though.
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Fairly certain I said tube and not DOM. There's also HREW tube that will work for steering. It's not the best choice but it'll work.

Still trying to wrap my head around why you'd listen to a machinist about building steering for an off road rig when you have 100+ yrs of experience in this thread trying to spoon feed you the correct way to do things.

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Well at least we got some entertainment back on this forum..glad to see Mr Fuller back at his shenanigans again..at least we've graduated from angle iron control arms to square stock..some progress at least..bahaha(just couldn't help myself)
 
Honest answer John, I could care less about the square tube tie rod. Enough of a good weld and it'll most likely hold. It ain't right, but it'll probably be good enough.
The biggest issue, and I feel most others will agree, is stacking the 2 TR and DL heims on top of each other while in single sheer. Also that bend in the DL coupled with the round tube nut in the square tube of the DL concerns me.
Drag links see a ton of force during the steering cycle and suspension travel. Having that bend and however the bent section is tied into the square section is an error waiting to happen.
That's an honest no BS answer.
 
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Steering is not something you want to play around with. When we built my TJ, we reamed out the knuckles on the Dana 44 to put 1-ton Chevy TREs on top. We got sloppy with the reamer and went too deep. Driving back from URE one evening before I had a trailer, the TRE was moving around in the hole, causing the castle nut to shear off the cotter pin and then completely come off. Just north of the outpost doing about 50 mph, the TRE came out of 1 knuckle, and suddenly I was staring eye to eye with a minivan coming my way. My wife and daughter were following me and all I could think of was that they were going to watch me die. God has his hand on my Jeep that day and just before I met the front end of that minivan, the Jeep suddenly changed course and I ended up in the ditch just in the nick of time.

Now I have the correct sized inserts in there, and haven't had any issues since.
 
Jody Treadway said:
The biggest issue, and I feel most others will agree, is stacking the 2 TR and DL heims on top of each other while in single sheet. Also that bend in the DL coupled with the round tube nut in the square tube of the DL concerns me.
Drag links see a ton of force during the steering cycle and suspension travel. Having that bend and however the bent section is tied into the square section is an error waiting to happen.
That's an honest no BS answer.
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Understood and I think everyone didn't realize from get go that it was unwelded/not made but just a reference. I bought enough square stock for the draglink so it will be done as explained before all in one piece except where joined together at the Tre. Just little confusion I think but no biggie, I knew your advise about double shear only stuff and go one below, one on top but I guess I thought with shorter 3/4bolt maybe it would pass..I got the mssg pretty quick though, thanks
 
marty79 said:
Understood and I think everyone didn't realize from get go that it was unwelded/not made but just a reference. I bought enough square stock for the draglink so it will be done as explained before all in one piece except where joined together at the Tre. Just little confusion I think but no biggie, I knew your advise about double shear only stuff and go one below, one on top but I guess I thought with shorter 3/4bolt maybe it would pass..I got the mssg pretty quick though, thanks
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The drag link needs to be straight, esp if you are using square tube.

I partly hate to show you this because it needs to be done correctly, but you could do something like what's in here: Double shearing a stock D44 knuckle - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum.
 
Chris_Keziah said:
Still trying to wrap my head around why you'd listen to a machinist about building steering for an off road rig when you have 100+ yrs of experience in this thread trying to spoon feed you the correct way to do things.
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Not to put people down but because this sport of 100+yrs experience is WAY too close minded on "opinions" "mathematics" and "one way or don't do it" mentality and that's just not realistic...not just for me but for a whole lot more than what most care to share ..I guess smarter people don't share and just do it lol haha. I "personally" thrive on innovative advise, plans, capability...too many people nowadays buy everything..bolt it on and go..fine! Good for them! Me, I like the fun experience of making stuff, learning in the process and when my rig is complete, knowing all/most of my bracketry/piping/plates/work came free from scrap metal pod full of goodies, that's just me though. Am I wrong,??to you maybe or to the whole world but I live for pleasing me in this hobby not anyone else so I build it according to my desire with whatever advise/feedback I'm able to "apply" from fellow experts or builders!
 
So the reason that square tube isn't usually used:

Round is stronger for the same weight. So making something the same strength as square will make it lighter. If you don't care about weight, square is fine. But you can make it stronger and stiffer for the same weight with round, as you could use a larger diameter round tubing for the same weight.

Round tubing is more resistant to buckling in compression. A tie rod is loaded only in compression or tension, unless you treat your tie rod like a skid rail and force it to perform in bending. There's not really any reason to use square tube when you're designing something for pure tension and compression when a round tube can be used instead.

Square tube is good in bending (better than round of the same size), but really doesn't like dents, especially dents on the corners. Remember that when banging into rocks, and make sure that all of your damage occurs on the flat sides of the tube, and not the corners of the tube. That should be easy, right?

Square tubing is very sensitive to anything that disrupts the strength of the sides, including point loads like the end of a round tubing insert. A round insert tangent to the flat sides is a point load (well, 4 individual point loads).

Square tube is harder to feed loads into the sides of without causing massive loss of strength in buckling. The way to solve that is to make the tubing larger and heavier than it already is.

Tubing inserts are easy to make for a round tube. It's round. It works amazing in a lathe. It doesn't have to be milled flat to size on at least 2 sides to for proper tolerances.


You're not innovating by using square tubing, you're just choosing to be ignorant of the compromises.... The square tube will work fine, but be aware of the reasons that round is usually used for best performance.
 
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It sounds like you've already been convinced of this, but stacked rod ends in single shear are a really bad accident waiting to happen. It really starts crossing the line from a bolted joint in single shear to a bolt mostly loaded in bending at that point.
 
PLUG WELDS!!!

If you're actually serious about building this stupid shit, at least have the common fucking sense to plug weld your inserts.
 
TL;DR but...

marty79 said:
Not to put people down but because this sport of 100+yrs experience is WAY too close minded on... "mathematics"
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FFS Math has nothing to do with opinions.

marty79 said:
I "personally" thrive on innovative advise, plans, capability...too many people nowadays buy everything..bolt it on and go..fine! Good for them! Me, I like the fun experience of making stuff, learning in the process and when my rig is complete, knowing all/most of my bracketry/piping/plates/work came free from scrap metal pod full of goodies, that's just me though. Am I wrong,??to you maybe or to the whole world but I live for pleasing me in this hobby not anyone else so I build it according to my desire with whatever advise/feedback I'm able to "apply" from fellow experts or builders!
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You're a moron. You may be a perfectly nice moron, but that doesn't excuse the fact that you are ignoring the advise of many people who BUILD everything they wheel. You asked for advice and completely disregarded everything that was carefully explained to you.

The worst part about John Fuller bullshit is the possibility that some other poor soul will see this and think it's acceptable because they read it on the intarwebs.
 
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