Heim joint steering info

57 +60 ...but it wold have been cheaper if I didn't buy the whole 20ft stick of square stock
 
Man i hate to burst your bubble but most of these ppl that are on here are far from rich. Also, if u read other threads on here, you will realize that most of us don't agree on many things.

Most of my friends will tell u that im a cheapass. I like saving money and building different stuff, but I've learned alot over the years.

I don't give a crap whether u use square or round, but 1.25" OD is likely too small. Also the single bolt wont last long before the knuckle breaks.

If u want to use what u have and save money: plug weld the bungs. That means, drill a hole in each side and weld the bung to the tube in that hole. Plate the knuckle and build a double shear setup for the steering.

Also my biggest suggestion, figure out your draglink. See my previous post, i have been down this road before. The downside to leafs, among others, is steering clearance. Id be willing to bet yours will not clear without bending it or high steer.

DO NOT BUILD A Z-BAR. Esp with square tube. If u need to run a drop pitman arm to get the draglink to clear under the leafs.
 
marty79 said:
And fyi, its 100%truth. Every engineer thinks they know it all...every welder/fabricator/builder thinks their way and opinion is the way or best way and I have been finding that on the web searching in every forum so please spare me this and that..everybody has their ways and opinions and hardly anyone agrees on certain topics.

Yeah well this "idiot" manages to build and keep up with yours and everyone else's rigs so the way I see it like usual...u just mad cause different & cheaper works just as good as proper..haters gonna hate
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As an engineer we do argue about things, but strength of materials are not it. That's like arguing about math. It is fact not opinion.

Also, don't think anyone is jealous. Id say that most are glad your rig works like it did and isnt a trail plug.

Also, just because your rig can go up many of the trails at the flats, doesnt mean it can do what many of the others on here can. When i see it going through trails at harlan, windrock, gmp, gulches, etc. It can be put in the class of built rigs. Noone else here is comparing their rigs to yours, so please keep this BS to yourself.
 
paradisePWoffrd said:
DO NOT BUILD A Z-BAR. Esp with square tube. If u need to run a drop pitman arm to get the draglink to clear under the leafs.
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Uhh ohh I have feeling this was my idea..are u talking about literally a Z shaped bar..coming under pass side leaf, go up at angle and towards Pittman arm? That is my plan, I've seen many run those kinda drag links on high lift applications and on the street too
 
I have dropped Putnam arm already..so a bent drag link is my only option..my bolt on my heims is 7/8 on one side, 3/4 on the other so I'm pretty sure the bolt will hold, considering I see many running 5/8bolts
 
marty79 said:
Uhh ohh I have feeling this was my idea..are u talking about literally a Z shaped bar..coming under pass side leaf, go up at angle and towards Pittman arm? That is my plan, I've seen many run those kinda drag links on high lift applications and on the street too
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Yes. Most of those you see are dangerous as hell. I see them too. I have built them in the past, but they are weak. No matter how many bends u use, the force acts straight wanting to make it bend more than it is already.

Are factory and aftermarket panhard bars bent, yes, but they are typically solid or very thick, plus they are usually made from a stronger steel. When u weld these, it looses its strength.

Your only real option is high steer or drop pitman low enough to clear. Or full hydro, but id bet thats not in your plan either.
 
paradisePWoffrd said:
Your only real option is high steer or drop pitman low enough to clear. Or full hydro, but id bet thats not in your plan eithe
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This is my plan for this and the 60 down the rd but for now I gotta make use of something...
Ok so lets reason/discuss this: I would have 2 30bends in the square tube and was gonna put a web on those corner bends...there's no way it would bend ?!!?
 
paradisePWoffrd said:
Yes. Most of those you see are dangerous as hell. I see them too. I have built them in the past, but they are weak. No matter how many bends u use, the force acts straight wanting to make it bend more than it is already.
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Not sparking argument but is this just the math of metals fact or been proven with similar 1/4wall tubing..just sayin, numbers can say whatever but in reality would it actually happen...most would say no. Everything is underrated for safety/insurance liability when yet things hold sometimes double their limit..(d30/d35 on 40s,..just making a point)
 
paradisePWoffrd said:
Are factory and aftermarket panhard bars bent, yes, but they are typically solid or very thick, plus they are usually made from a stronger steel. When u weld these, it looses its strength.
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Again pardon my side of things but:..my hacked up track bar on my last xj cut in half at the bend mind you and spliced together with sch40 1/8wall "poop" pipe everyone calls it..1.5yrs of wheeling with welded front and its in my shed now..no stress cracks at the welds or any funnyness to it, especially on the sch40 section soo again..how practical and real does the "math" of these 1/4wall tube/square play out when look what's been done with steel half its gauge..just sayin
 
marty79 said:
Not sparking argument but is this just the math of metals fact or been proven with similar 1/4wall tubing..just sayin, numbers can say whatever but in reality would it actually happen...most would say no. Everything is underrated for safety/insurance liability when yet things hold sometimes double their limit..(d30/d35 on 40s,..just making a point)
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Physics say that forces always act in a straight line. No matter how crooked that line is. If u bend the tube it is going to try and pull the bend in and out. A gusset will help, but not a ton.

The ones you see on the street are likely skirting by. Also the forces acting on them are low compared to offroad. Also bet they have crazy bumpsteer. Bumpsteer will kill your hands/wrists offroad.
 
paradisePWoffrd said:
Physics say that forces always act in a straight line. No matter how crooked that line is. If u bend the tube it is going to try and pull the bend in and out. A gusset will help, but not a ton.
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Ok now were getting somewhere..I have 3/8plate that was gonna make gusset with and double pass welds so surely it will work? for some time...
 
marty79 said:
Again pardon my side of things but:..my hacked up track bar on my last xj cut in half at the bend mind you and spliced together with sch40 1/8wall "poop" pipe everyone calls it..1.5yrs of wheeling with welded front and its in my shed now..no stress cracks at the welds or any funnyness to it, especially on the sch40 section soo again..how practical and real does the "math" of these 1/4wall tube/square play out when look what's been done with steel half its gauge..just sayin
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If your plan is to wheel ure and power line trails it might hold on for a long time. Doesnt mean its strong or right. On my rig itd be luck to make it a weekend.

Also with things such as panhard or steering i like to be overbuilt. If they break, youre going to have collateral damage or injury.
 
paradisePWoffrd said:
If your plan is to wheel ure and power line trails it might hold on for a long time. Doesnt mean its strong or right. On my rig itd be luck to make it a weekend.

Also with things such as panhard or steering i like to be overbuilt. If they break, youre going to have collateral damage or injury.
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Well good thing I agree..I tend to overweld everything too hence my last junk held together so well haha, but tomorrow I'm gonna make it and will put up pics..your comments duly noted and will focus little more on strengthening it as much as possible...
Hey cmon--the "john fuller control arms" took quite a beating and his poop pipe track bar so this is big step up in material..bahaha never will get old
 
marty79 said:
What else is funny how quick u people run ur mouth on these forums downgrading me yet in person....nobody man enough to say hi nevertheless come and dog my rig that was killin it..says a lot
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I was man enough to come say hi and shake your hand at the Flats. I was also man enough to come help get you unstuck at The Shop when you were done on Carnage.
As an E-friend, I'm nice enough, like others here, to offer some advice. You however choose to disregard it due to your own stubbornness.
What's the old proverb, "Pride comes before a fall."
 
Jody Treadway said:
I was man enough to come say hi and shake your hand at the Flats. I was also man enough to come help get you unstuck at The Shop when you were done on Carnage.
As an E-friend, I'm nice enough, like others here, to offer some advice. You however choose to disregard it due to your own stubbornness.
What's the old proverb, "Pride comes before a fall."
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Your quote is wrong......
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Jody Treadway said:
I was man enough to come say hi and shake your hand at the Flats. I was also man enough to come help get you unstuck at The Shop when you were done on Carnage.
As an E-friend, I'm nice enough, like others here, to offer some advice. You however choose to disregard it due to your own stubbornness.
What's the old proverb, "Pride comes before a fall."
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Hey wasn't referring to the 1or2 that have so u shouldn't get offended but if you did, sorry. For others I was just making a point on the context of people bashing/talking trash to others so much just cause they build differently..but whatever I could care less. I don't lose any sleep, still get my junk built and it still performs above and beyond my goals so that's all that matters.
 
paradisePWoffrd said:
Also, just because your rig can go up many of the trails at the flats, doesnt mean it can do what many of the others on here can. When i see it going through trails at harlan, windrock, gmp, gulches, etc. It can be put in the class of built rigs. Noone else here is comparing their rigs to yours, so please keep this BS to yourself.
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Btw, not tooting my own horn, this "BS" is my only platform to back up my build ideas or ways that everyone does and has put down. And I don't compare to "everyone else"..only to similar size and similar built XJs...other than this, I have not other supporting evidence lol
 
paradisePWoffrd said:
Plate the knuckle and build a double shear setup for the steering.
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Are u talking about putting plates on top and under knuckle with same size hole then welding it to the knuckle then mounting the heim one under one on top..that I can do!
 
marty79 said:
Ok so lets reason/discuss this: I would have 2 30bends in the square tube and was gonna put a web on those corner bends...there's no way it would bend ?!!?
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Keep learning about the buckling modes of square tubing. Then decide if that's what you want to do. It will likely work fine, but you've done no analysis on it at all, except saying "it's what I have" and "it's 0.25 wall". You're just going to do whatever you're going to do, and cross your fingers that it works because that's what you want the outcome to be. If the tubing is strong enough, and your loads are light enough, it will still work even though you've tried your best to handicap it through poor design.

If you start throwing bends into a compression member without compensating for the dramatic reduction in strength, engineers like me start joking about it being "pre-buckled".

marty79 said:
..how practical and real does the "math" of these 1/4wall tube/square play out when look what's been done with steel half its gauge..just sayin
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Do you have some comparison to a known-successful tie rod made of square tubing of the same size you're using but with a thinner wall? I don't understand what you're trying to say here.
 
marty79 said:
Are u talking about putting plates on top and under knuckle with same size hole then welding it to the knuckle then mounting the heim one under one on top..that I can do!
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No, that would be one Heim in double shear, and one Heim in single shear. I don't particularly trust you to design a double (oops, fixed that) shear clevis that is strong enough to solve what you're trying to do. You really need to learn why Heims don't like that, and how to do it properly. The solutions are easy and very well understood. You seem very eager to ignore those well-understood solutions and try to reinvent the wheel for no reason without understanding the problem that you're trying to solve.

You seem like a good guy, but you're stubborn as shit and seem willfully ignorant sometimes.
 
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Fabrik8 said:
No, that would be one Heim in double shear, and one Heim in single shear. I don't particularly trust you to design a single shear clevis that is strong enough to solve what you're trying to do. You really need to learn why Heims don't like that, and how to do it properly. The solutions are easy and very well understood. You seem very eager to ignore those well-understood solutions and try to reinvent the wheel for no reason without understanding the problem that you're trying to solve.

You seem like a good guy, but you're stubborn as shit and seem willfully ignorant sometimes.
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Wait so now ur saying I can't "safely" use these heims I bought..even with one under and one on top? WTH are u serious?
 
Fabrik8 said:
You seem like a good guy, but you're stubborn as shit and seem willfully ignorant sometimes.
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Yes I can be.....sorry.....
 
Fabrik8 said:
. It will likely work fine, but you've done no analysis on it at all, except saying "it's what I have" and "it's 0.25 wall".
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My answer was stated earlier..I had the DOM within reach, being pulled to cut but once we started talking, the guy gave me another option that was half the cost and just as strong. I talked to him and couple other machinists for 30min on this stuff and they all 3 agreed on what I am needing it for would more than suffice. Sure he said buy the DOM if u really want but its not all that much stronger than this 1/4wall square for ur needs. I was gonna go with 3/8square but they said way overkill. It was taking opinions of guys working with steel everyday ...sure they don't build steering for crawlers but they know what the shear strengths are of these different metals and I guess they're advise sold me and my wallet.
Honestly I just don't think I will ever pay the outrageous price of DOM...I'm sure everyone would love to hear my roll cage plans now....lol
 
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