I had no idea Fentanyl was this powerful

Folks don’t become an addict on their own. It is a combination of shitty genetics and shitty childhood. And if you don’t get it you never will but try some empathy. But most of these people have been abused, sexually, physically, or mentally during formative years leaving them with deep scars and deep issues. Combine that with shit genetics drugs (sex, gambling, high risk adrenaline) get ahold of them and it takes a lot for them to move forward. But heroin (And meth to some extent) is a whole different ball game. Best way I can describe is either you’re having the best orgasm of your life x10, happy, care free or you feel like literal death, everything hurt, and contemplating suicide. Not real much in between for a Heroin addict. Add on top of this. Once you’ve used heroin enough times the level of joy you feel will never be the same.
 
ponykilr said:
As I said, there’s not a simple fix.

I do 100% believe in personal freedom and in personal responsibility. The trouble is the responsibility part. How does a meth addicted person who already steals to support his habit “pay” society for the costs of the addiction? He can’t.

.....
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This is where it gets interesting. Where do we spend the money on these folks? Housing them in revolving prison door, policing, replacing lost items.
Or on prevention, rehabilitation, mental health care?
 
I would support complete free for all legalization IF there were a few rules understood.

If you OD you get one freebie (if it is found you are not insured or have no assets to pay). After that the guy pulls you up and sees your history and it‘s off to see Jesus.

If you are committing a drug related crime there will be no prosecution for whoever is forced to take the responsibility of preventing or defending against it.

More suggestions? Have at it but it’ll never happen because reasons.



So what would the real consequences of legalizing hard drugs be?
 
Futbalfantic said:
Folks don’t become an addict on their own. It is a combination of shitty genetics and shitty childhood. And if you don’t get it you never will but try some empathy. But most of these people have been abused, sexually, physically, or mentally during formative years leaving them with deep scars and deep issues. Combine that with shit genetics drugs (sex, gambling, high risk adrenaline) get ahold of them and it takes a lot for them to move forward. But heroin (And meth to some extent) is a whole different ball game. Best way I can describe is either you’re having the best orgasm of your life x10, happy, care free or you feel like literal death, everything hurt, and contemplating suicide. Not real much in between for a Heroin addict. Add on top of this. Once you’ve used heroin enough times the level of joy you feel will never be the same.
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I know 3 men who beat crack or meth. They will tell you that they are still addicts but they’re in recovery. They all said the same thing, it is literally heaven or hell and doing ANYTHING to get the next high is plausible...even though the high is never the same as that first one.
 
Futbalfantic said:
This is where it gets interesting. Where do we spend the money on these folks? Housing them in revolving prison door, policing, replacing lost items.
Or on prevention, rehabilitation, mental health care?
Click to expand...
All good questions. Not simple answers.

In my experience, 99.x% will go back to the drugs at the first opportunity regardless of the length of time passed. It is a rare individual who comes back from C, M or H. As I said, I am fortunate to know 3 and be very close to one of them.

My nephew is one such person who has been in and out of programs and has cost his family multiple thousands plus the hurt and distrust. He will never beat it as most won’t.
 
In regards to an addict, my job is to save you *now,* without judgment. My responsibility isn't based on your past actions, and I'm not here to save you from the future. There is a higher authority for judgment and salvation. I've known several addicts who have overcome and became successful members of society. I would rather give 10 addicts a chance to change tomorrow than let the one addict who will change die today.

Duane
 
ponykilr said:
All good questions. Not simple answers.

In my experience, 99.x% will go back to the drugs at the first opportunity regardless of the length of time passed. It is a rare individual who comes back from C, M or H. As I said, I am fortunate to know 3 and be very close to one of them.

My nephew is one such person who has been in and out of programs and has cost his family multiple thousands plus the hurt and distrust. He will never beat it as most won’t.
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It's a sad truth. Paraphrasing for cleanliness. "Screw around and find out". And @Futbalfantic I couldn't agree more about the things that lead folks down a certain path. Evil. Many forms. Many ways to complicate and persuade individuals. It's all evil.
And that proverbial path is always two ways. The narrow and the wide. The wide just contains all sorts of exits and on ramps and for the unfortunate few a dead end.
I understand empathy and compassion but that doesn't mean you flip the map and tread down the same path. It doesn't mean your job is to steer or help navigate another's path (in regards to statements to follow). It means you do everything in your power to keep your path straight while aiding, healing, and bringing light to the evil. The blurry debate is that line. My take is an o.d. , repeat offender, even petty repeat crime isn't my responsibility because of the individuals choices. Some evil is just to heavy, "screw around and find out".
 
Futbalfantic said:
Folks don’t become an addict on their own. It is a combination of shitty genetics and shitty childhood.
Click to expand...
I have a hard time agreeing with this. I’m certain it applies to many but far from all. I’ve had 2 very close friends OD on heroin and a 25yr old “kid” I’ve known all his life just did this past Thursday. None really fit that label.
 
Well one thing is certain. If we manufactured and handed out drugs for free (with an understanding there will be no other financial benefits to drug users) as a taxpayer funded benefit the problem would be solved quickly.

There wouldn’t be a need to steal, so crime is lessened. The cartels would go out of business (or expand their sideline of human trafficking). The ODs would cease being a cost to the public and as ODs progress the overall cost to society would be less than we see now.

Climate change would be lessened. Food would be more available. Stronger genes with less addictive traits would become more prevalent.

Unfortunately, it would be a horrible few years with millions dead and families left to deal with orphans and the pain of loss. Eventually we’d be better, much better, but that path tho….

EC7E8A6C-CACE-4817-ABD6-D3DC4DA4EA78.gif
 
@ponykilr out of curiosity and discussions sake, what is your stance on marijuana and legalization of that?
 
77GreenMachine said:
@ponykilr out of curiosity and discussions sake, what is your stance on marijuana and legalization of that?
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I’m torn. Nobody I’m aware of is instantly addicted to pot or typically steals from their family and neighbors to get it. It’s probably less of a societal troublemaker than alcohol. I do believe some folks who use pot are more inclined to use other drugs where alcohol users don’t seem to do it as often.

On its own I’d say legalized weed would not hurt society overall. I am NOT for government involvement in its distribution or growth. Taxing it would be problematic otherwise but it already is so.
 
ponykilr said:
I’m torn. Nobody I’m aware of is instantly addicted to pot or typically steals from their family and neighbors to get it. It’s probably less of a societal troublemaker than alcohol. I do believe some folks who use pot are more inclined to use other drugs where alcohol users don’t seem to do it as often.

On its own I’d say legalized weed would not hurt society overall. I am NOT for government involvement in its distribution or growth. Taxing it would be problematic otherwise but it already is so.
Click to expand...

Pretty much the same here. I also consider my faith and what’s right or wrong. At the same time, it is a plant that God himself made and it has benefits. Many of which are the very thing Xanax, valume etc does, but in a natural way.

I believe much like alcohol, sex, and money it is just a thing that isn’t necessarily bad, but when abused and used wrong it can be bad. Also believe that for SOME, not all, it can be a gateway drug.

So much like you I find myself torn. I often wonder what would it be like today if it were never prohibited in the first place? Would it be just like smoking, some folks do and some don’t?

I don’t have all the answers. I know several successful regular users, occasional users, and folks like myself who once in a blue moon don’t mind if it’s offered in the right time/place among people I 100% trust.
 
77GreenMachine said:
Pretty much the same here. I also consider my faith and what’s right or wrong. At the same time, it is a plant that God himself made and it has benefits. Many of which are the very thing Xanax, valume etc does, but in a natural way.

I believe much like alcohol, sex, and money it is just a thing that isn’t necessarily bad, but when abused and used wrong it can be bad. Also believe that for SOME, not all, it can be a gateway drug.

So much like you I find myself torn. I often wonder what would it be like today if it were never prohibited in the first place? Would it be just like smoking, some folks do and some don’t?

I don’t have all the answers. I know several successful regular users, occasional users, and folks like myself who once in a blue moon don’t mind if it’s offered in the right time/place among people I 100% trust.
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You hit on my response. Not that I'm a huge fan of smoking the substance. It's natural when left alone and grown as is without additives or even highly selective horticulture. Even the coca plant was natural. Man just decided to engineer it's potency. So maybe I'm more of an edible guy, lol!
The evil; and I'll keep refering to that fact, is most stuff we have that really harm or addict people has been manufactured and engineered by human hands. Not all forms of progression are for the greater good.
 
In my view (and in the view of most of the “founders” according to their writing), rights are only limited by the harm they directly cause to others. If a fellow wanted to smoke meth in his own home and it never led to him causing harm to others, well I’m OK with it (My personal morality on it aside)

That isn’t how it works though, the harm to others always comes as the craving is more powerful than the man’s desire to not harm others.

We don’t allow kiddie diddling because despite the degenerate’s desires it harms others.

Some things can be used for good or evil and have legitimate uses and are not always a problem. These things are more dependent on the end user‘s proclivities. Alcohol being a great example. Gun ownership another. Personal responsibility and self control are the safety on those things and the right to own and use them. While they can be misused, it isn’t a foregone conclusion that they will be and in fact overall are not misused to a high percentage overall.

Meth, Heroine and other drugs that are so powerful that they instantly have you hopelessly addicted are another animal altogether. You can argue that the user made the initial decision and you’d be right but the decisions after are largely out of their control.

This is the question. What should be done?

We’ve seen a ”war” waged yet drugs are still here. We’ve taught kids not to fool with them yet they still do. We spend incredible amounts of money and manpower to curb hard drug use but with limited success to the point of being a joke.

Evil has been used here in this great conversation and I do believe evil as an entity exists and these drugs are a part of it. In my view it is part of the promotion and glamorizing of other evil things we see in our daily life. Satan wants to devour us like a lion and the normalization of evil in society has always been a part of that since Adam walked out of the garden. “You won’t surely die”.
 
www.americanprogress.org

Ending the War on Drugs: By the Numbers

Researchers and policymakers alike agree that the war on drugs is a failure. Policymakers must replace the war on drugs with a fairer, more effective model that treats substance misuse as a public health issue—not a criminal justice issue.
www.americanprogress.org www.americanprogress.org

Since 1971, the war on drugs has cost the United States an estimated $1 trillion.

It doesn't seem like it is working.
 
The natural argument has always fascinated me.
Arsenic is natural so is mercury both will kill you if you ingest them.

If I wanted to go all college hippie stoner in you, I could suggest that drugs are the fruit of the tree of good and evil.

on the flip side as I’ve grown older and researched more about the human body and the roles that hormones and chemicals play…it’s without question that some people have chemicals in their body that make them crave …whatever. Mostly they crave dopamine. That’s a pretty strong root cause in obesity, sexual deviation, drug addiction, and many other undesirable behaviors. Heck I could even argue that a dopamine crave is what led most of us to wheeling.

The thing is we have the science and ability to shut down dopamine receptors. We can turn the craving off through medical intervention.

for the good and evil debate would this be a good thing as it destroys much evil, or would it be altering with a Creator’s perfect creation.
 
WARRIORWELDING said:
You hit on my response. Not that I'm a huge fan of smoking the substance. It's natural when left alone and grown as is without additives or even highly selective horticulture. Even the coca plant was natural. Man just decided to engineer it's potency. So maybe I'm more of an edible guy, lol!
The evil; and I'll keep refering to that fact, is most stuff we have that really harm or addict people has been manufactured and engineered by human hands. Not all forms of progression are for the greater good.
Click to expand...

Agreed on the edible lol. I smoked from time to time years ago but at some point it became something i didn’t enjoy anymore. Even now, it’ll just make me paranoid and stuck inside my head. But I may or may not have tried some THC coconut oil in my coffee and that was very very cool. Just relaxed and smiling.
 
Not to get off on too far of a tangent but I have read a LOT on certain fungus use and despite the jokes there are tremendous possibilities for “fixing” some problems in the brain from depression to even psychotics.

Of course it can simply be a trip, a recreational mind blowing experience but the research on these compounds is extremely interesting. Some studies suggest actual repair of the brain, connecting broken connections and changing certain behaviors using “trips” or micro-dosing the compounds.

Some compounds are truly amazing in what they can do for us. MJ has also done some amazing things for folks with certain ailments. I am not anti-drug but I am anti-evil.

Hell I wish it wasn’t a felony to experiment with corn and other sugars 🤫
 
77GreenMachine said:
Pretty much the same here. I also consider my faith and what’s right or wrong. At the same time, it is a plant that God himself made and it has benefits.
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God also made the opium poppy, cocao plants, and all kinds of stuff that is very bad for you.
I personally have never understood the relevance there.
 
RatLabGuy said:
God also made the opium poppy, cocao plants, and all kinds of stuff that is very bad for you.
I personally have never understood the relevance there.
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I didn’t say that was grounds for justification, just stating those are the thoughts that go thru my head. I could further quote scripture that says be of a sober mind, avoid strong drink, wine is a mocker, etc.

I can easily say that Christians have no business recreating with marijuana. At the same time I ask myself, what is the difference in a person who gets Xanax from their doctor to help “take the edge off” or cope with life, vs a brownie made with naturally grown weed that will accomplish the same thing.
Or an edible that helps a cancer patient have an appetite and be able to sleep, vs strong lab engineered morphines and such.

Again I’m not saying it’s wrong or right, I’m explaining those are my own struggles and thoughts when I consider it from either side. I stand torn on the issue of legality and faith.
 
Ron said:
The thing is we have the science and ability to shut down dopamine receptors. We can turn the craving off through medical intervention.

for the good and evil debate would this be a good thing as it destroys much evil, or would it be altering with a Creator’s perfect creation.
Click to expand...
That's pretty much what Naloxone does.
and it suuuuucks for the receiver because not only does it temporarily stop the craving but it also removed the endemic suppression of pain signals from all over the place.

What we DON'T have is the science for selective, targetted, exclusive delivery to receptors associated with craving.
Eventually we'll get there... somehow... but not there yet
 
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77GreenMachine said:
I didn’t say that was grounds for justification, just stating those are the thoughts that go thru my head. I could further quote scripture that says be of a sober mind, avoid strong drink, wine is a mocker, etc.

I can easily say that Christians have no business recreating with marijuana. At the same time I ask myself, what is the difference in a person who gets Xanax from their doctor to help “take the edge off” or cope with life, vs a brownie made with naturally grown weed that will accomplish the same thing.
Or an edible that helps a cancer patient have an appetite and be able to sleep, vs strong lab engineered morphines and such.

Again I’m not saying it’s wrong or right, I’m explaining those are my own struggles and thoughts when I consider it from either side. I stand torn on the issue of legality and faith.
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You and I are on the same page in this. My dad was an alcoholic. It ruined much of my childhood and I still deal with things associated with it. Yet, I do not have an addictive personality and alcohol is not something that I crave. It’s no different than eating a good steak or decompressing by downtime. I can go long periods without even thinking about it. It has been a hobby in certain ways to me and I don’t hate alcohol for what I experienced as a kid. I hate what the weakness of a man caused me to experience.

Christ turned water into wine at a wedding and caused the bride’s father to say it was the best of the event. It wasn’t grape juice, it was wine. It is abuse of things that cause the issue, not the thing.

For some folks, certain things cause them to lose control. Sex. Money. Liquor. Drugs.

Both of my sisters have the gene I missed. They have to be very cautious with alcohol, it’s a strange thing but very real.

If pot helps a person with cancer then I’m ok with it. It has to be better than the chemicals they give you legally. If a trip from a Golden Teacher cures a person of depression then comb the cow pastures for them.

Let drunkenness cause you to kill someone or neglect your kids then I say you need help to leave it alone but that doesn’t mean we should return to prohibition.

The hard drugs we are discussing here have no legitimate use. They are simply destroyers. I wish I had an answer.
 
Speaking of addictions....

My dad was an alcoholic my entire life, except for 3 years. I never really knew him even though I was 26 when he died. Weird, right? I didn't harbor any ill will towards him, but it was honestly a relief when he died. Basically what killed him was rampantly uncontrolled type 2 diabetes. It'll wreck your body if you don't take care of it. Toxins build up, organs shut down, and it's just a matter of time.

Anyway, I say all that to say this...and I'm glad nobody has said it that I've seen. After I found him and got everything taken care of, phone calls made, authorities alerted, etc...we all met up next door at my grandma's. My aunt, who is a very well educated RN had the nerve to say he had "a terrible disease". I knew what she was talking about, but I said; "Well, yeah, diabetes IS terrible!". Of course she went off about addictions being a disease and how it makes you unable to control yourself and being dependent on a substance. My rebuttal.. yes, exactly, that's what an addiction is. Cancer is a disease. You CAN stop drinking and you CAN control that...you can't just decide to stop having cancer.

Anyway, I totally understand why some people do stuff. I've hard some extremely hard times myself, but I've never once thought drugs or drinking would make it better. I'm thankful for that. Some folks just don't have the will power or fortitude to resist things.

Matt's post above is pretty similar to my experience. Hell, I drink, but thankfully I can leave it alone and not even think about it.

I think a lot of it is habit, honestly. People in general are creatures of habit.
 
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