I had no idea Fentanyl was this powerful

Croatan_Kid said:
Anyway, I say all that to say this...and I'm glad nobody has said it that I've seen. After I found him and got everything taken care of, phone calls made, authorities alerted, etc...we all met up next door at my grandma's. My aunt, who is a very well educated RN had the nerve to say he had "a terrible disease". I knew what she was talking about, but I said; "Well, yeah, diabetes IS terrible!". Of course she went off about addictions being a disease and how it makes you unable to control yourself and being dependent on a substance. My rebuttal.. yes, exactly, that's what an addiction is. Cancer is a disease. You CAN stop drinking and you CAN control that...you can't just decide to stop having cancer.

Anyway, I totally understand why some people do stuff. I've hard some extremely hard times myself, but I've never once thought drugs or drinking would make it better. I'm thankful for that. Some folks just don't have the will power or fortitude to resist things.
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FYI this is part of why the professional psychology community has recently moved to classifying addiction as a disorder and not a disease.
 
As long as they call a spade a spade, I'm cool with it. There's always some underlying issues.
 
Croatan_Kid said:
As long as they call a spade a spade, I'm cool with it. There's always some underlying issues.
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I think that's kind of the point... changing what we call it to be a better descritpion of what is going on.
 
RatLabGuy said:
I think that's kind of the point... changing what we call it to be a better descritpion of what is going on.
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Right.
There is a middle ground there. It isn’t a disease but it is a disorder of their chemistry. They do have the theoretical ability to choose not to drink.
However they also have internal drives and can eaves that make it different than you or I choosing not to drink.
 
RatLabGuy said:
God also made the opium poppy, cocao plants, and all kinds of stuff that is very bad for you.
I personally have never understood the relevance there.
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Relevance to me is all are of creation. The evil in it is the manipulation and use. Remeber if your all believing God created the devil, evil, and yes cancer.
 
Ron said:
Right.
There is a middle ground there. It isn’t a disease but it is a disorder of their chemistry. They do have the theoretical ability to choose not to drink.
However they also have internal drives and can eaves that make it different than you or I choosing not to drink.
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I agree.

I don’t however group certain hard drugs into that same box. Anyone, the hardest willed in the world, would easily be a junkie if they shot up or smoked a rock/meth. They hit a place in the brain, flip a switch so to speak to where the will is overruled.

There are of course outliers, exceptions, but they are very rare.
 
Well, drinking can do the same things. You ever seen someone have to get up in the middle of the night and drink so they didn't get sick? I lived it for years. Trying to quit at that point can almost (and can) kill you.

That level of dependency can't be much different from what any kind of drug puts on you. I realize the "high" of it is different, but I believe the same principles apply.

Honestly, if you do anything long enough, your body will adapt and it'll become normal and/or an addiction. We're weird creatures...

Especially people who say they're addicted to stuff like cat food, eating hair/sand/deodorant. TLC had a series about that. Suuuuuper weird.
 
Croatan_Kid said:
Especially people who say they're addicted to stuff like cat food, eating hair/sand/deodorant. TLC had a series about that. Suuuuuper weird.
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I saw some of that years ago, reallll out there stuff.
 
Croatan_Kid said:
Well, drinking can do the same things. You ever seen someone have to get up in the middle of the night and drink so they didn't get sick? I lived it for years. Trying to quit at that point can almost (and can) kill you.

That level of dependency can't be much different from what any kind of drug puts on you. I realize the "high" of it is different, but I believe the same principles apply.

Honestly, if you do anything long enough, your body will adapt and it'll become normal and/or an addiction. We're weird creatures...

Especially people who say they're addicted to stuff like cat food, eating hair/sand/deodorant. TLC had a series about that. Suuuuuper weird.
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The one about the girl who had to sleep with a running hair dryer was certainly strange.
 
Totally forgot to mention this earlier...

Throughout the ordeal I've been having with my back, my doctor prescribed me several different meds. Started with muscle relaxers, then tramadol, hydrocodone, and finally oxycodone. I only got maybe 15 of each? He said he didn't want me getting hooked on them...which I totally get. Weird thing was, none of them made me feel any different. On the one hand, I'm glad they didn't...but it would have been nice to ease up the back pain!
 
Huge discussions on other boards who are saying the officer’s reaction was a panic attack or something and not an OD. Paramedics to doctors saying that it isn’t possible and the reaction he had isn’t a F OD reaction.

Carry on though, I have enjoyed the discussion.
 
ponykilr said:
Huge discussions on other boards who are saying the officer’s reaction was a panic attack or something and not an OD. Paramedics to doctors saying that it isn’t possible and the reaction he had isn’t a F OD reaction.

Carry on though, I have enjoyed the discussion.
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This is all orrect, IMO. A link was posted about this above.
Think about it, if it was this potent then dude's couldn't just mix it in their basement.
 
RatLabGuy said:
This is all orrect, IMO. A link was posted about this above.
Think about it, if it was this potent then dude's couldn't just mix it in their basement.
Click to expand...

Yeah and why wasn’t the other dude affected since he was right beside him if it were that potent. Would seem like one couldn’t even package it.
 
We had a training recently that is was potent enough to absorb through the skin to cause an overdose. But they were talking about carfentynal.

“For pain relief, a unit of carfentanil is one hundred times as potent as the fentanyl, five thousand times as potent as heroin, and ten thousand times as potent as morphine,”
 
RatLabGuy said:
This is all orrect, IMO. A link was posted about this above.
Think about it, if it was this potent then dude's couldn't just mix it in their basement.
Click to expand...
I read that link when posted.
Seems though lots of folks who deal with it daily are saying something is funky.
 
Sheriff ‘shocked’ by pushback from medical experts over fentanyl video

Toxicology experts say they don’t believe deputy suffered fentanyl overdose; sheriff vows to release more information about incident

SAN DIEGO — Sheriff Bill Gore said Monday that the dramatic video his department publicized last week, intending to highlight the danger of fentanyl to law enforcement, was produced without any input from physicians.
Gore said he, not a doctor, concluded that Deputy David Faiive suffered an overdose from incidental contact with fentanyl in the July 3 incident featured in the video. It showed Faiive collapsing in a San Marcos parking lot after handling suspected narcotics found in a vehicle.

Medical professionals have pushed back, saying there is no evidence that incidental contact — drugs coming in contact with skin or through inhalation — with fentanyl can trigger an overdose. A couple hundred signed an online petition calling for retraction of the video and the news coverage that focused on it.

“I saw the video. Everybody that saw the video saw him seize up, go down, fall on his head,” Gore said. “The drugs tested for fentanyl. It was classic signs of fentanyl overdose — that’s why we called it that.”

The sheriff said he was “shocked” to hear pushback from toxicologists and members of the medical community. Gore pledged to release full, unedited body-worn video of the incident and to seek medical records of the deputy.

The backlash from many people who saw the sheriff’s video was swift and sharp. On social media, toxicologists, doctors and others said an overdose couldn’t have happened the way the Sheriff’s Department had described. They said what they saw in the video did not look at all like an opioid overdose.

UC San Diego associate professor of medicine Leo Beletsky researches opioid overdoses and said the video “adds unnecessary stress to an already strained profession. Inadvertently, in an intention to protect law enforcement, it does harm.”

Several people noted the video was edited and wanted to see the raw footage of what happened.

Gore also took exception to allegations that the department had faked the video.

“We were not trying to deceive anybody, trying to hype the issues,” he said.

The San Diego Union-Tribune’s reporting on the video last week also came under fire for not questioning the Sheriff’s Department’s contention that the deputy had overdosed from fentanyl exposure. Critics noted that reporters failed to talk to toxicologists or other medical professionals.

“It makes me upset with the media that reported it,” said Dr. Andrew Stolbach, a medical toxicologist and an emergency physician at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore. “If you are going to do that story, you need to talk to at least one physician.”

Although fentanyl and other drugs designed to mimic its effects have fueled an overdose epidemic in North America, “the risk of clinically significant exposure to emergency responders is extremely low,” according to the statement by the American Academy of Clinical Toxicology and the American College of Medical Toxicology.

Gore said Monday he was surprised that medical professionals had contended that the risk to law enforcement in handling and inhaling fentanyl was overblown.

“I’m sorry, my mind didn’t go to, oh our deputy fainted, our deputy had a panic attack. It just didn’t go there. What was the other logical explanation— to my mind it was an overdose from the drug, from fentanyl.”

Before the deputy fell ill, he and another deputy arrested a suspect on suspicion of drug possession. That person appeared to have a seizure and was taken to a hospital, according to a Sheriff’s Department report.

According to the Sheriff’s Department, they tested the contents of three plastic baggies found at the scene. One tested positive for methamphetamine. The other two were a mix fentanyl and fluorofentanyl.

One of the incident reports the department released Monday contains a description of the deputy’s account of what happened to him.

According to the report, the deputy said he bent down to grab an evidence bag and his face came within 6 inches of where he had been testing the substance. His training officer told the deputy not to get too close, and when he stood up “he felt light-headed and fell down.”

The next thing he remembered was someone spraying naloxone up his nose and then being loaded into an ambulance.

Some toxicologists said that believing a substance can harm you can serve as a “nocebo” — the opposite of a placebo — meaning if you think it will harm you, you feel an effect.

“A nocebo effect could explain what is going on in this incident,” said Dr. Ryan Marino, medical director of toxicology at University Hospitals in Cleveland. “I can say from watching that video he is not having an overdose.”

Marino said that is not to suggest what happened wasn’t real, but rather was “most likely caused by the fear and anxiety caused by this narrative. … it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.”

Marino said the biggest harm in the narrative of the video was that people who see it will believe the myth that exposure is harmful and won’t want to help people in the midst of a true overdose.

Gore said the deputy, who is out of the country right now, has agreed to sign a release of his records, but said there was a chance there might not have been a toxicology test taken. “If there was no toxicology done at Palomar (Medical Center), I don’t know where that’s going to leave us,” Gore said.

He said the department has operated under the assumption that inhalation or touching it could cause an overdose.
“If we were misinformed so be it we are trying to correct (it),” he said.

In the days since the story broke, a group of health professionals, public health researchers, first responders and others signed a request calling for a retraction of the video and for news outlets to correct the record. They said the Union-Tribune story on Friday perpetuates a myth that casual contact with potent synthetic opioids such as fentanyl poses a health risk to first responders. More than 200 people signed the document.

“This is dangerous misinformation that can cause harm both to people who use opioids and to members of the law enforcement community,” the online petition said.

Spreading such misinformation, the petition says, can stigmatize people who need support in the midst of a public health crisis. It may delay a timely overdose response — either because bystanders will wait for first responders to arrive or because first responders will be delayed as they don unnecessary personal protective equipment. And, they say, it it might cause first responders to suffer emotional trauma if they believe that passive exposures put their lives at risk.
 
ponykilr said:
Sheriff ‘shocked’ by pushback from medical experts over fentanyl video

Toxicology experts say they don’t believe deputy suffered fentanyl overdose; sheriff vows to release more information about incident

SAN DIEGO — Sheriff Bill Gore said Monday that the dramatic video his department publicized last week, intending to highlight the danger of fentanyl to law enforcement, was produced without any input from physicians.
Gore said he, not a doctor, concluded that Deputy David Faiive suffered an overdose from incidental contact with fentanyl in the July 3 incident featured in the video. It showed Faiive collapsing in a San Marcos parking lot after handling suspected narcotics found in a vehicle.

Medical professionals have pushed back, saying there is no evidence that incidental contact — drugs coming in contact with skin or through inhalation — with fentanyl can trigger an overdose. A couple hundred signed an online petition calling for retraction of the video and the news coverage that focused on it.

“I saw the video. Everybody that saw the video saw him seize up, go down, fall on his head,” Gore said. “The drugs tested for fentanyl. It was classic signs of fentanyl overdose — that’s why we called it that.”

The sheriff said he was “shocked” to hear pushback from toxicologists and members of the medical community. Gore pledged to release full, unedited body-worn video of the incident and to seek medical records of the deputy.

The backlash from many people who saw the sheriff’s video was swift and sharp. On social media, toxicologists, doctors and others said an overdose couldn’t have happened the way the Sheriff’s Department had described. They said what they saw in the video did not look at all like an opioid overdose.

UC San Diego associate professor of medicine Leo Beletsky researches opioid overdoses and said the video “adds unnecessary stress to an already strained profession. Inadvertently, in an intention to protect law enforcement, it does harm.”

Several people noted the video was edited and wanted to see the raw footage of what happened.

Gore also took exception to allegations that the department had faked the video.

“We were not trying to deceive anybody, trying to hype the issues,” he said.

The San Diego Union-Tribune’s reporting on the video last week also came under fire for not questioning the Sheriff’s Department’s contention that the deputy had overdosed from fentanyl exposure. Critics noted that reporters failed to talk to toxicologists or other medical professionals.

“It makes me upset with the media that reported it,” said Dr. Andrew Stolbach, a medical toxicologist and an emergency physician at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore. “If you are going to do that story, you need to talk to at least one physician.”

Although fentanyl and other drugs designed to mimic its effects have fueled an overdose epidemic in North America, “the risk of clinically significant exposure to emergency responders is extremely low,” according to the statement by the American Academy of Clinical Toxicology and the American College of Medical Toxicology.

Gore said Monday he was surprised that medical professionals had contended that the risk to law enforcement in handling and inhaling fentanyl was overblown.

“I’m sorry, my mind didn’t go to, oh our deputy fainted, our deputy had a panic attack. It just didn’t go there. What was the other logical explanation— to my mind it was an overdose from the drug, from fentanyl.”

Before the deputy fell ill, he and another deputy arrested a suspect on suspicion of drug possession. That person appeared to have a seizure and was taken to a hospital, according to a Sheriff’s Department report.

According to the Sheriff’s Department, they tested the contents of three plastic baggies found at the scene. One tested positive for methamphetamine. The other two were a mix fentanyl and fluorofentanyl.

One of the incident reports the department released Monday contains a description of the deputy’s account of what happened to him.

According to the report, the deputy said he bent down to grab an evidence bag and his face came within 6 inches of where he had been testing the substance. His training officer told the deputy not to get too close, and when he stood up “he felt light-headed and fell down.”

The next thing he remembered was someone spraying naloxone up his nose and then being loaded into an ambulance.

Some toxicologists said that believing a substance can harm you can serve as a “nocebo” — the opposite of a placebo — meaning if you think it will harm you, you feel an effect.

“A nocebo effect could explain what is going on in this incident,” said Dr. Ryan Marino, medical director of toxicology at University Hospitals in Cleveland. “I can say from watching that video he is not having an overdose.”

Marino said that is not to suggest what happened wasn’t real, but rather was “most likely caused by the fear and anxiety caused by this narrative. … it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.”

Marino said the biggest harm in the narrative of the video was that people who see it will believe the myth that exposure is harmful and won’t want to help people in the midst of a true overdose.

Gore said the deputy, who is out of the country right now, has agreed to sign a release of his records, but said there was a chance there might not have been a toxicology test taken. “If there was no toxicology done at Palomar (Medical Center), I don’t know where that’s going to leave us,” Gore said.

He said the department has operated under the assumption that inhalation or touching it could cause an overdose.
“If we were misinformed so be it we are trying to correct (it),” he said.

In the days since the story broke, a group of health professionals, public health researchers, first responders and others signed a request calling for a retraction of the video and for news outlets to correct the record. They said the Union-Tribune story on Friday perpetuates a myth that casual contact with potent synthetic opioids such as fentanyl poses a health risk to first responders. More than 200 people signed the document.

“This is dangerous misinformation that can cause harm both to people who use opioids and to members of the law enforcement community,” the online petition said.

Spreading such misinformation, the petition says, can stigmatize people who need support in the midst of a public health crisis. It may delay a timely overdose response — either because bystanders will wait for first responders to arrive or because first responders will be delayed as they don unnecessary personal protective equipment. And, they say, it it might cause first responders to suffer emotional trauma if they believe that passive exposures put their lives at risk.
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Hmmmm..... Can't be fake news, yet again, can it???
 
skyhighZJ said:
And to be the hard ass piece of shot you’ll talk about around the campfire. “You” should have raised your kids better to understand right and wrong (this statement is not directed toward you specifically just the thought process). That’s where the one time revival comes into play. If it was truly a mistake they’ll learn and live
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do you have kids
 
skyhighZJ said:
Yes I do and I trust that I have raised him to know right from wrong. In fact he probably knows and right and wrong with a much firmer grasp of black and white than most being he is autistic, grey, is a hard concept for him.
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Good, and I hope every bit of what you say holds true. I honestly do. But as a parent is also realize that I’m not the only force in any of my kids lives. Peer pressure is a strong outside force. And I’ll leave it at that.
 
mbalbritton said:
Good, and I hope every bit of what you say holds true. I honestly do. But as a parent is also realize that I’m not the only force in any of my kids lives. Peer pressure is a strong outside force. And I’ll leave it at that.
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On that note, I’ve said it hundreds of times but do whatever you have to lifestyle wise to be able to home school your kids. Sending them to be indoctrinated in public school is madness. We did it, anyone can.
 
ponykilr said:
On that note, I’ve said it hundreds of times but do whatever you have to lifestyle wise to be able to home school your kids. Sending them to be indoctrinated in public school is madness. We did it, anyone can.
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Me and my wife have just decided to go down this road. Public school is nothing like it used to be. They fast track kids thru so they keep their funding up. Kids don’t get the attention they need if they struggle with something. Not to mention the things other kids were exposing my 9 year old daughter to. But that’s another thread.
 
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