Lots of interesting news today

Well, first of all, there should be so such thing as property taxes. How we let the government tax us (CONTINUOUSLY) on some perceived value of something that we have already bought with after tax dollars is mind blowing. And on top of that....we agreed to let the government take away our usage of paid for car/house if we don't pay these taxes EVERY FREAKING YEAR. If we let this happen, then I guess it really is all a lost cause, due to sheer stupidity.

However, regardless of how much money I get to keep, we limit the power the elected idiots have on us. That's the main issue. They offered free lunch...got us hooked....now they offer free breakfast. Got us hooked more. Now they teach race relations and sex Ed. Hooked even more. Now, parents don't know what to do when schools are closed!!!!!! Billy sits around all day and gets fat!! Then they run to the government for help. Hooked for real now. It's like it was planned?!?! And we jumped right in.

Some dudes tried to talk to the school officials and got arrested. You want your tax dollars paying for this nonsense?
 
I told you my solution. 8am to noon school. No free food. Slash art, music, PE, recess, sex Ed, race theory, all of it. Billy needs to get a good paying job, and can do his hobbies on his own time. Sell the property devoted to all these activities.
-No more recurring property taxes.
-Parents/charity/friends/family/private biz take up the slack, encouraged by positive government rhetoric
-Tax the lottery a bit more
-One and done property tax
-Higher tax deductions for giving to boys and girls clubs, etc (think of the kids!!!!)
-in school every day, so we stop falling behind Asia, and we are paying for the schools anyway, why should they sit empty? (Free child care, like everyone seems to want)
-Don't arrest people at school board meetings, which are now on weekends when parents can go
-The governor telling people they are in charge of their own life, instead of thinking up a new 'free' program every time something bad happens.

Easy? Nope. But has to be done.
 
benXJ said:
I told you my solution. 8am to noon school. No free food. Slash art, music, PE, recess, sex Ed, race theory, all of it. Billy needs to get a good paying job, and can do his hobbies on his own time. Sell the property devoted to all these activities.
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And how much money, in doll hairs, do you think this will save? Or better yet as a percentage of the annual school budget? Do you know what typical public funding expenditures for these things is?
When you look at the details and do the math, it is very small savings, at the cost of school being incredibly boring and something kids dread and hate. Especially if you're telling them to do it all year.
 
A half to a third can be cut.
That's icing on the cake when you take into account no more arguing about race theory or if the pilgrims were bad people.
Less school board members and time wasted by them.
I thought school was boring even with all the fluff. The kids wont have time to be bored. It's teach, test, get out. Then they'll have all sorts of time for hobbies and playing. It's only 4 hours a day. Mine and your taxes are for kids entertainment?
It's not just about the money (which could be substantial for some)....it's gaining back control and rooting out corruption. It's about teaching the officials that they work for us, not the other way around. Then we can focus on some bigger ($$$) issues. Oh...and you don't have to pay property taxes every year. You'll actually own your house...cause you don't now.

It's a good start.
 
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benXJ said:
A half to a third can be cut.
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Ha, thats laughable. If you're really serious about this, I suggest you take a deep look into what the expenses of a typical school system are, and where the funding for things like arts and sports equipment comes from, and what % of the budget it is. I'd be shocked if you could save 10% max on a county level.

I'm done arguing about this.
 
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I dont disagree that there are wasteful things that could be cut from the budgets to reduce the tax load.

My kids spend about 45min in the "extra" class each day, another 30min at recess, and another 30min eating lunch. The rest of the time is doing those "primary" things, as you say. They could be done more efficiently, if there were smaller class sizes. But, as said above, if you get rid of the "fun" stuff, then the kids will have 0 interest being there. Ask any kid what they enjoy best about school, and very few of them will tell you math or english.

Also, these days, in this area, there is a shortage of teachers and substitutes. So most of the "nonessential" teachers are teaching the "essential" stuff when some other teacher is out. Or someone in the administration is doing it.

Also, if you study into the adolescent brain, the start time for school should really be atleast 9a, if not 10a, if you really want to get the most work/learning out of them.

My suggestion would be to let the schools/districts run it more like a business and less like a government system.
 
paradisePWoffrd said:
Also, if you study into the adolescent brains of many people, the start time for school most everything should really be atleast 9a, if not 10a, if you really want to get the most work/learning out of them.
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FIFY :D. Maybe @RatLabGuy can confirm since he studies stuff more related to that than the rest of us.
 
jeepinmatt said:
FIFY :D. Maybe @RatLabGuy can confirm since he studies stuff more related to that than the rest of us.
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Not really this kind of stuff... but yes
Its definitely been pretty well established that teenagers (and most kids really) are more mentally alter mid morning, and more importantly that having a good night's sleep / being well rested is probably the single best predictor of learning potential, the other biggie being having a good breakfast (or at least not being hungry). The latter is of course why there is a big push for free/cheap breakfast and lunch for kids who can't get it at home.
As people age they get set into more of a pattern and become early risers or night owls like me.
Typically they make teenagers start early bc they want to have time for after school activities and jobs, which is reasonable, but 7:15 am start is ridiculous IMO. I literally don't even see my son in the AM bc he's out the door before I wake up. And then he's nodding off in English class. Seems like when we were in Forsythe County (?) they had HS starting late, and many clubs met before school. Nice compromise.

Sadly most school districts have to start early w/ one set of schools bc of limited bus availability, using the same busses for HS then turn em around and go get the elementary kids. So if we consider
paradisePWoffrd said:
My suggestion would be to let the schools/districts run it more like a business and less like a government system.
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if the "profit" is smart kids who learn useful stuff then like many businesses, making a bigger investment yields a bigger opportunity for profit, and when your investment potential is limited or hamstrung then you have to deal with things like sleepy or hungry kids which limits what you'll get out of them.
 
How about harnessing some more of that child labor for profits. When i was in school the construction class build and sold storage sheds and the metal shop built utility trailers. Horticulture sold plants etc.
 
benXJ said:
Well, first of all, there should be so such thing as property taxes. How we let the government tax us (CONTINUOUSLY) on some perceived value of something that we have already bought with after tax dollars is mind blowing. And on top of that....we agreed to let the government take away our usage of paid for car/house if we don't pay these taxes EVERY FREAKING YEAR. If we let this happen, then I guess it really is all a lost cause, due to sheer stupidity.

However, regardless of how much money I get to keep, we limit the power the elected idiots have on us. That's the main issue. They offered free lunch...got us hooked....now they offer free breakfast. Got us hooked more. Now they teach race relations and sex Ed. Hooked even more. Now, parents don't know what to do when schools are closed!!!!!! Billy sits around all day and gets fat!! Then they run to the government for help. Hooked for real now. It's like it was planned?!?! And we jumped right in.

Some dudes tried to talk to the school officials and got arrested. You want your tax dollars paying for this nonsense?
Click to expand...
(Pushing up nerd glasses) 🤓 Actually, property tax existed before income tax. It actually makes more sense in a republic. I pay my property taxes to maintain the infrastructure (roads, Powe grid, police, fire, schools, etc) that I need for my property as part of a community. Yes, the government keeps taking a share of my money to maintain these things.

I'm ok with that system. It started long before a government had the means to estimate someone's earnings and collect a specified percentage of it. I like it because I can directly trace the reason I am paying the tax to the value I receive for it. If the state isn't using my property taxes for the benefit of the property being taxed, I should get involved and try to change it.
 
paradisePWoffrd said:
I dont disagree that there are wasteful things that could be cut from the budgets to reduce the tax load.

My kids spend about 45min in the "extra" class each day, another 30min at recess, and another 30min eating lunch. The rest of the time is doing those "primary" things, as you say. They could be done more efficiently, if there were smaller class sizes. But, as said above, if you get rid of the "fun" stuff, then the kids will have 0 interest being there. Ask any kid what they enjoy best about school, and very few of them will tell you math or english.

Also, these days, in this area, there is a shortage of teachers and substitutes. So most of the "nonessential" teachers are teaching the "essential" stuff when some other teacher is out. Or someone in the administration is doing it.

Also, if you study into the adolescent brain, the start time for school should really be atleast 9a, if not 10a, if you really want to get the most work/learning out of them.

My suggestion would be to let the schools/districts run it more like a business and less like a government system.
Click to expand...


I say fully fund the educational system and make the prison system have to collect boxtops and run fundraisers if they want new workout equipment. Have the inmates' families have to donate supplies like toilet paper and kleenex and cleaning supplies like us parents have to do during the school year. If more people actually get educated in the education system, the prison system won't have to "re-educate" them.
 
Much smaller schools to build on smaller plots of land, half the teachers to hire and give retirement to, no stadiums and fields, half the power usage, no free food (we already give away free food, why do we do it twice?). I bet we could get a third cut easy.

What's this fun and enjoyable talk? School is mandatory. You're going regardless. Some of my best classes were main subjects. The teacher and administration has to make it that way. And fine, start it at 9am. I'm tired of my taxes paying for lunch time. And you should be too. It doesn't matter the actual dollar amount, it's not right or moral.
 
benXJ said:
Much smaller schools to build on smaller plots of land, half the teachers to hire and give retirement to, no stadiums and fields, half the power usage, no free food (we already give away free food, why do we do it twice?). I bet we could get a third cut easy.
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That's not how the distribution of labor and facilities in a school works. Look at the faculty and topic distribution sizes in a typical school. There's 1 band teacher, 1 chorus teacher, 1 art teacher. The building doesn't change size unless you cut the student body population. And that also not how powering buildings works. Or fields.
 
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Southern_Transplant said:
(Pushing up nerd glasses) 🤓 Actually, property tax existed before income tax. It actually makes more sense in a republic. I pay my property taxes to maintain the infrastructure (roads, Powe grid, police, fire, schools, etc) that I need for my property as part of a community. Yes, the government keeps taking a share of my money to maintain these things.

I'm ok with that system. It started long before a government had the means to estimate someone's earnings and collect a specified percentage of it. I like it because I can directly trace the reason I am paying the tax to the value I receive for it. If the state isn't using my property taxes for the benefit of the property being taxed, I should get involved and try to change it.
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I don't care when it was enacted. It's beyond stupifying that anyone would agree to it. I'm decently ok with taxes in theory, but you're cool with the government charging you rent on an item you bought with money you already paid tax on, or if you don't, they'll take it from you? Not just once...but anytime they feel like it?

Oh, and since we now have ways of estimating income taxes, why do we still need property taxes? Just more and more.

Maybe it's more a lost cause than I thought.
 
83oldyoda4x4 said:
How about harnessing some more of that child labor for profits. When i was in school the construction class build and sold storage sheds and the metal shop built utility trailers. Horticulture sold plants etc.
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Our county has a pretty cool magnet school program, with a tech school attached to the community college. They sell all kinds of stuff they make.

Except the culinary arts folks at lunchtime. They make these awesome meals, but aren't allowed to eat them for lunch, they have to have the cafeteria food with the others. What a crock.
 
RatLabGuy said:
That's not how the distribution of labor and facilities in a school works. Look at the faculty and topic distribution sizes in a typical school. There's 1 band teacher, 1 chorus teacher, 1 art teacher. The building doesn't change size unless you cut the student body population. And that also not how powering buildings works. Or fields.
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Schools won't need gyms, art rooms, music rooms, theaters, auditoriums, cafeterias, ball fields, tracks, etc. That's a lot of sq footage.

Less land, less sq footage, less teachers = less money. Times tens of thousands of schools every single year. It starts to add up to real money.

It'll never happen...in fact I'm sure the budgets will just keep getting bigger, but it's fun to dream of common sense tax policies and less blatant waste and corruption.
 
RatLabGuy said:
Our county has a pretty cool magnet school program, with a tech school attached to the community college. They sell all kinds of stuff they make.

Except the culinary arts folks at lunchtime. They make these awesome meals, but aren't allowed to eat them for lunch, they have to have the cafeteria food with the others. What a crock.
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There was talks back in the day of someone funding the materials for a home gut/remodel. Have the community college class come and wire/ plumb everything.

Our masonry class built all of the new dugouts for the softball/baseball and brick field house, the construction class did the roof.

As crazy as things are now, i wonder how long those programs will last. With all the liability.
 
RatLabGuy said:
Our county has a pretty cool magnet school program, with a tech school attached to the community college. They sell all kinds of stuff they make.

Except the culinary arts folks at lunchtime. They make these awesome meals, but aren't allowed to eat them for lunch, they have to have the cafeteria food with the others. What a crock.
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No pun intended on the 'crock'. That is bullshit. At my community college the culinary arts program had a separate counter in the cafeteria. They had a coffee bar and the best pizza, lasagna, or one other specialty dish of the day. It was the bomb.
 
benXJ said:
I don't care when it was enacted. It's beyond stupifying that anyone would agree to it. I'm decently ok with taxes in theory, but you're cool with the government charging you rent on an item you bought with money you already paid tax on, or if you don't, they'll take it from you? Not just once...but anytime they feel like it?

Oh, and since we now have ways of estimating income taxes, why do we still need property taxes? Just more and more.

Maybe it's more a lost cause than I thought.
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Yes. I am totally happy with the government charging a land owner for the services that a government provides. If I choose to occupy that land, it has a cost associated to it for upkeep. There is no way around it. I see property tax as the funding mechanism for keeping the common area and services around my land in order. The more expensive my land the more upkeep I pay. It shouldn't matter how much I personally make in income, the area services for a piece of property don't change. If I no longer want to maintain my community, I should sell my land to someone who will be willing to do so. I could live in an RV and make a million dollars a year.

This isn't a socialist belief. This is a mechanism of paying for living in a successful republic/nation/kingdom. It has worked for millennia. I see no reason to change it. Once again, if the tax is too high for the services provided (see the state of Oregon), I will settle else where (notice my North Carolina location).
 
benXJ said:
Schools won't need gyms, art rooms, music rooms, theaters, auditoriums, cafeterias, ball fields, tracks, etc. That's a lot of sq footage.

Less land, less sq footage, less teachers = less money. Times tens of thousands of schools every single year. It starts to add up to real money.

It'll never happen...in fact I'm sure the budgets will just keep getting bigger, but it's fun to dream of common sense tax policies and less blatant waste and corruption.
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You still need an auditorum or something unless you plan to never have classes together for anything or even a whole faculty meeting. But whatever, congrats, you saved 30% on the cost of your building. Maybe even 50! And then after the first year... maybe 15% on heating and maintanance, and 3% on faculty costs. Schools don't pay property tax, smaller square footage and acreage saves you very little. So where does all this magical cost savings come from?
Oh but then full year round schooling - get ready for 30% higher manpower costs, the biggest part of the equation. Plus you just eliminated all the things that bring IN money for schools.

And the tens of thousands of other schools aren't your problem, b/c you don't pay for them, they cost their own communities. Yes there is some federal funding but it is such a tiny fraction of your taxes its hardly even calculable.

The point is, if you want lower taxes, you're barking up the wrong tree. Much larger money is spent on much more useless things that don't directly affect the wellbing of our future workforce. Hello DoD...
 
I think perhaps fully privatizing school, take it out of government hands, could be a great option. If parents have skin in the game then it won’t be thought of as free daycare. Parents might push their kids to do well. I know most here probably helped their kids to do well in school but trust me that a huge % do not. I have worked with families that had absolutely no interest in how their kids did, none. My program had some success in changing that, we absolutely did, but some just saw what we did as an extension of the free daycare itself.

Taxes are ground up in unnecessary positions and programs that more efficient private businesses would streamline. More successful schools would drive competitive systems of learning instead of the grind of mandatory and largely poorly thought out standards. Teachers would be the best, not those with longevity status.

For lowest income students some kind of partial assistance % could be subsidized but still require a minimum investment of the parents. I know of no parents paying for private school (and I’m not talking wealthy families but families that decided education of their kids is important enough to sacrifice for) who don’t push their kids to do well.

My probably most controversial idea would be to not be so eager to push all kids into college. Some that have a proclivity for trades or others who simply do not have the drive or will to succeed in higher learning could learn to be productive and make a good living doing unglamorous but necessary jobs. By 10th grade it is getting obvious which students desire more education or at the least are capable if helped. For some students, going all the way to grade 12 at 18yo (or older for some) is simply a waste of time that could be spent learning something that will actually prepare the student for real life.
 
Southern_Transplant said:
Yes. I am totally happy with the government charging a land owner for the services that a government provides. If I choose to occupy that land, it has a cost associated to it for upkeep. There is no way around it. I see property tax as the funding mechanism for keeping the common area and services around my land in order. The more expensive my land the more upkeep I pay. It shouldn't matter how much I personally make in income, the area services for a piece of property don't change.
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Yup. Proprty taxes make the most sense, its the same argument as sales tax being the primary fee. The problem is it mostly hits a select group and to be more equitable would have to be pretty invasive.

People don't like paying taxes but the fact is, you do get something in return for it. And the general value and direct connection to what you get in return is most evident with proprty taxes and local services.
 
ponykilr said:
My probably most controversial idea would be to not be so eager to push all kids into college.
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I really don't think that is that controversial at all.

I think there is a rebound in action where appreciation for trades is coming back and a lot more people are recognizing that major push for college as the primary way was a bad idea... now that we are seeing bitter fruits of that in action today with a glut of useless college kids and major undersupply of trademen.
 
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