My 2nd time/experience at The Flats!! AWESOME.

Wow
 
what's the "wow" for...did i miss something (obviously!lol)
 
John Fuller said:
I wouldn't go as far as saying you're not wheeling hard enough if your not winching: that's just it (personally): it's not about how hard you wheel, how hard you spin/bounce/pull/push/etc...i strongly believe it's more about how well whatever you build can tackle a certain terrain with the least amount of force applied to reduce breakage, fatigue, wear, and getting stuck or all the above. I have many many times in my life weather in person or videos seen guys power up stuff, going crazy showing off, sliding/bouncing/jumping/more bouncing but then have seen same trail and same conditions i've seen guys come along crawling or easing right through same scenario because of either better tires, better gearing, better throttle control, or all the above and I "personally" want to always be that guy so i will always build my rig to do just that. Wheelspin is in fact needed in certain scenarios and type of trails but most generally speaking, i think spinning the hell out of it us usually more for fun/show than it is for effectiveness.
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You wanna know what is so great about using wheel spin, power and more force?
Park at the bottom of Laurel Lane in the rain, Guardrail in the snow and ice or even the exit of Railbed when it's wet. You feel that rumble of 300 horses under your right foot and that throbbing sensation in your britches? That's what is so great about it!
 
For the record about breaking parts :

I broke my Dana 60 stub, that took out the spindle, bearings and locking hub all at the same time, in the equivalent of a gravel parking lot, not on the throttle, idling, turning the steering wheel.

I broke a ballistic joint welded stud, after I let off the throttle, sliding down an obstacle with the brakes locked. This took out a coilover shaft, brake lines, rear driveshaft, the ballistic joint all at once.

Neither time I was on the throttle of my stroker.

With that said,

I have been on the rev limiter on the healthy stroker, with 42's with the front tires a foot off the ground, and rear tires 6 feet off the ground, trying to Bounce up a rock stair step.

I have dumped the clutch at 5k in third gear low range, launching my rig up little jagger, lower damnation, grape vine, mason jar that people on this forum have witnessed.

Not trying to bust your bubble, but staying below Rpms or off the throttle etc, is not always the key to not breaking. Some times things happen than just don't work out that cause breakage, some are out of your control, some are inferior parts, some are acts of God.

My point is, things are going to break no matter what, don't intentionally set yourself up for failure, with the mindset if you lock the throttle from
Opening 1/2, or a 2500 rev limit. That's just ignorance.

I started off-roading before I could reach the pedals "steering" on the OBX, then learned the fundamentals with my one wheel wonder go kart.

On my jeep since 2002 I have had both stock and upgraded axles, motors transmissions, transfer cases, 235/75, 32, 33, 35, 36, 38, 44, and 42" tires.

My point to all that, is that there are people on this site with years more experience than I, giving you wonderful advice, that comes from situations we have already been through.

Stop arguing at free advice, for some
Reason we (nc4x4) keep trying to help you not waste time or money.
 
Jody Treadway said:
You wanna know what is so great about using wheel spin, power and more force?
Park at the bottom of Laurel Lane in the rain, Guardrail in the snow and ice or even the exit of Railbed when it's wet. You feel that rumble of 300 horses under your right foot and that throbbing sensation in your britches? That's what is so great about it!
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hey good for you buggy guys but that's not me. you couldn't give me a v8 to drop in my jeep, junk if you ask me but again i'm entitled to my likes and you to yours but neither is right or wrong, just different preferences. I don't know how this is turning into a pissing contest between me and some high HP buggies/rigs cause honestly i could care less how much power you got and i'm not even competing/trying to compete against anyone???? I just started a thread to express my accomplishements and awesome experiences on my 2 trips to the Park and expressing how impressed I am with the performance of my cheap ass setup and tires....Cool yalls horses there cowboys...ain't nobody trying to compete for nothing. In the rain or wet conditions, you will not find me parked at the bottom of Laurel Lane...or any other yellows...I will try them without a doubt, that's what this sport is all about. If i make it great, if not oh well i gave it a good try but comparing me to yalls high HP rigs is kinda lame if you ask me...you can compare all you want but I'm DAM PROUD of my 1200 Cheap XJ and it's capabilities so far and with cutting my tires even better, and fixing some other things, it will serve me even better.
 
Mac5005 said:
Stop arguing at free advice, for some
Reason we (nc4x4) keep trying to help you not waste time or money.
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i'm lost...where in this thread am I asking for anyones advise?? I am expressing my cool trip to the Flats and accomplishments and the awesome capability of my Jeep considering how frugal of a build it is so where does asking for people's advise come into play??
(if i didn't know any better, it seems people are a bit surprised even on a "dry day" that this "Abomination" of a Jeep of mine did so well and tackled so many of the trails including one red even if it was dry, it seems this is way more than anything people have placed bets on. I don't get caught up in all this kind of crap. I'm there to wheel my jeep, have fun with the family, and have fun with whomever might desire to accompany me. I have met 2 guys with buggies who were very very kind/helpful and let me around some stuff to motivate me to even try some of the trails I did and those to me are the kind of guys I long to know or wheel with and they were also quite pleased with my jeep and especially my tires and guys like them, built my confidence in myself and in my Jeep compared to if i were to actually listen to everybody's comments about my jeep on this forum, hell i would've never left the greens and the first trip i hardly did but this time around someone took their time to show me what this jeep is capable of and i'm glad i listened.)
 
John Fuller said:
blah, blah, blah...pissing match...cowboy
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Was never a pissing match, but it was a joking post about differing driving styles. My Ranger is far from a buggy BTW.
Oh, and I'm no cowboy. As you remember I am actually a professional tire bead reseater along with my cohort Steven from ECGS. Remember when we helped you reseat your bead when you couldn't?

Stop taking things personally John, we are here to help you. Believe it or not, some of us have a lot, and I mean a lot of wheeling, wrenching and building experience that we are passing along to you (and others).
 
Jody Treadway said:
As you remember I am actually a professional tire bead reseater along with my cohort Steven from ECGS. Remember when we helped you reseat your bead when you couldn't?
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i do and thank you very very much for that, i was very appreciative!! and i'm not taking anything personal...i just get tired of jeeps in general always getting put down including mine. it seems no matter what i do to it, how much i put into it, or how good it performed it still gets bashed or warned of this and that and more of this and that so...oh well. it's all good, no worries. i look forward to a wet day at the park...i'm dying to really test out these tires now after recutting them even more!
 
StretchASU said:
Just here to check in on the same ol thread with a different title. Carry on
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ha ha ha ha ha. pretty lame, isn't it. better go add this one to the "failed thread list" too i reckon.
 
i don't understand why nobody focuses on Traction more than anything else: i'll explain. i watched guys everywhere (even up easy st in front of me) spin and spin and spin moving on through, then i see their tires and hardly no traction to em...even descent set of TSL really aren't all that compared to what they could be. I (not bragging by no means) went right through same spot as the guy in front of me not having to spin at all cause of these cut grooved like hell clobbers and i'm only running 7psi. So my point is this...if you just like to horsepower up stuff, as you mentioned earlier Jody fine, but that seems to be why people break so much. I focus on the tires and tread more than anything cause what good does a big ass axle/horsepower/gears/and lockers do if your tires can't/won't bite good enough so it takes double or more force for those less aggresive tires to move the vehicle compared to something really really aggresive does the work for you. again not bragging, but still even dry my tires took me up Ol Stumpy doing all the work for me so my axles don't have to take that beating or other parts. Also, with tires cut sooo aggresively like mine and others i've done, the tread blocks are so much softer that i believe even on rocks they would perform so much better. I get it though.....who doesn't want to power up stuff and scream that v8 open headers!! sounds good and cool but i don't personally think it is the best and most efficient route to take. and no i'm not referring to trails like Tank Trap...that's just rediculous LOL and you gotta have some HP/balls/guts and glory to mess around in there but if the trail has dirt on it, nasty aggresive tires would go along way and that traction would keep people from abusing the drivetrain so much.

i hope i don't offend the owner of this rig...it just happens to prove my point so easily i had to put it up BUT i am not putting down His/Her's Rig, just using video for this purpose. it portrays exactly what i am talking about here. NO TRACTION...badass rig for sure but them tires ain't doing nothing at all. This is perfect example of Traction vs. No Traction. (good way to burn off 6months of tread too lol). I will make a Full Time Business someday just cutting tires for racers, boggers, crawlers, and the serious trail enthusiast once people really begin to see the difference it makes (that is if they are looking for better traction to ease up the trails better)
 
John Fuller said:
i don't understand why nobody focuses on Traction more than anything else: i'll explain. i watched guys everywhere (even up easy st in front of me) spin and spin and spin moving on through, then i see their tires and hardly no traction

i hope i don't offend the owner of this rig..
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I have to agree on this point.
 
I think you've missed what I think me and most other people are trying to tell you. Hell I wheel a Cherokee too. What we are saying is that even with the HD parts from an auto parts store they are still designed towards heavy road use and close to stock size tires. Just driving down the street on 32s or larger is going to create more stress then the axle was intended to hold. Yes it probably isn't going to break just cause of that but just think every time you bind up get a little bit of wheel hop or a slight jerk the axle components are weakening, you saw this with your ball joints. Those probably would have still been fine if you weren't wheeling it. That's why we say you need to be prepared for breaks, your less likely to break with no wheel spin and less horse power, but to me your just prolonging until it happens.
I agree that tire grip and driver skill are a lot more useful that horse power, we also live in the south, where wheel spin is the norm doe to the muddy slick rock just how it is.

Jody's not always had a little v8 he use to have a 4cyl. 4runner and wheeled it hard so be knows what that no power life is all about.
 
Here is some info that applies to traction other than grooving tires.

Compound makes a huge difference.



Grooving makes makes a difference by allowing the tread area to flex better and creating more forward biting edges.

The contact patch size makes a great difference as well.

This is why most tires perform better with less air. The tire bends and conforms to obstacles better wrapping the biting edges around the rocks, roots etc. Lower air pressure also increases the contact patch in two directions. The only trade off is reduced ground clearance.


You still are missing the point that forward momentum and inertia can overcome traction issues.

Spinning the tires on rock and smoking them warms up the tread to effectively make them softer, and warms up the carcass to make them flex better. As well on many occasions it cleans the mud, dirt, leaves off an obstacle allowing your tires to contact the rock, where "traction" is possible.

Remember traction through not spinning is only possible with a surface that has friction.

None of the above takes into account a muddy rock trail. Tires must be spun to clean out the mud to be able to get traction on the rocks.

I get it, you cut your thornbirds and made them work. They look awesome. You created the only way I would ever own thornbirds.

Typically, they suck terribly in all situations, and can be found cheaper bc demand is lower on them.

I think you should get out and wheel more with them before offering up your opinion on them in comparison to other tires.

Go to harlan/windrock/rausch/chocolocco/gulches do some testing, take a set of 36" iroks and run every trail with the thornbirds, and then the iroks and post up your findings.

Post up how well the do/don't on different trails.

I could post up all about how my set of cut gumbo monster mudders are the best tire on the trail, but without any comparison or evidence, I will just appear to be an ignorant, opinionated fool.
 
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John Fuller said:
i'm lost...where in this thread am I asking for anyones advise?? I am expressing my cool trip to the Flats and accomplishments and the awesome capability of my Jeep considering how frugal of a build it is so where does asking for people's advise come into play??
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Posting anything in an open forum on the interweb is asking for advice, whether you want it or not.
 
image.jpg
 
I let my sticky Treps do the work first. If they don't, then I rely on momentum and more aggressive driving.

I remember last fall at Harlan I was riding Mason Jar and it was a muddy, muddy mess. I beat my truck within an inch of it's life just to get past the entrance. 2 weekends ago I literally idled up the entrance and the next 2 ledges and hills. I'd rather have it at my disposal than to wish I had it.

Tires, suspension design, traction, weight, wheelbase, weather, skill, compound, COG and many other things play into how you attempt a given trail or obstacle.
 
Mac5005 said:
Go to harlan/windrock/rausch/chocolocco/gulches do some testing, take a set of 36" iroks and run every trail with the thornbirds, and then the iroks and post up your findings.
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very good point and this is what i intend to do over time as posted before. i think i should've been into Tire Manufacturing cause i have such a huge passion for tires/traction/grip modification. when able to, i plan on running tests with tires like you mentioned and not for my personal gain either but in hopes to help out the average wheeler and the professionals better tackle obstacles.
 
Jody Treadway said:
I let my sticky Treps do the work first. If they don't, then I rely on momentum and more aggressive driving.
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this is pretty much my motto to an extent though...since i'm not built enough to go much farther than low rpms
 
i have one 35" mtr spare and plan to find 3 more cheapo spares, groove them the best i can and take em to the Flats on a trip and run some tests up some of the trails...or once i can find someone or more with XJs on 35s and make friends, swap 35s with em for a couple of runs to be able so show the difference. I personally have had much testing grounds with tires but just never have a dam camera around or someone to tape around but i'm buying me one before the next trip. I've been a serious tire groover for about 8years now and i love messing with tires as much as wheeling itself and i have a passion to help this adventure by making it the best performance possible.
 
Mac5005 said:
Typically, they suck terribly in all situations, and can be found cheaper bc demand is lower on them.
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YES THEY DO SUCK TOTAL ASS stock. My dream tire would be a 38.5" NEW thornbird cut to this very similar design i have since new, i would end up with over 1.25"of center tread and the lugs would have close to 3"of deep space between and someday i can't wait to buy a new set to groove em like this. I've only managed to find sets used with less than 3/8" left and they are badass cut but new, i can only imagine the performance they could put out. I prefer thornbird nowadays over a TSL just because of all the lugs that wrap around the sidewall and can be cut very deep as i have...TSL was my favorite tire for long time until someone sold me used set of 38.5thornbirds and cut them like current ones and on that full size bronco, they were pretty amazing so now i've just gotten to love them but dam.....they require stupid amount of work to be awesome. I'd really like to cut a good set of IROKS, they look like they have lots of potential to be bad ass. When i get a Van Alstein someday, i will be able to offer grooving much cheaper i believe for ease of the better machine so more can afford to have their tires greatly improved....maybe get so good with that one that i could do it at the park in just few hours for full set so the person could go out and test them on the spot.
 
And after all that grooving I'll still take a set of sticky treps...

Seriously if you are gonna run a test find someone with some 37 comp treps and throw them into your comparison. When you are done you can throw away your tire groover.

I think why you are taking some of the comments here as "bashing you" is this:

Your cut Thornturds seem to work very well. You are proud of them as you should be. You are one here proclaiming that everyone else would be so much better off if they would just learn the magic of cut tires. The thing is most here have ran cut tires before and understand cut tires are better than some stock tires.

Heck want a trip down memory lane, I bought a brand new set of 38.5x16x15 Boggers. Drove up to Galloways and picked them up on a Thursday at lunch. Me and my BIL (RIP) spent all night Thursday grooving them up. Brand New. Drove into work Friday morning, (no sleep) worked a half and headed home where he was supposed to have our vehicles loaded up (he worked 4 10s at the time) and ready to roll. I get to the shop to see him grooving on a new Bogger. WTF? Well the night before when we quit, turns out he left the grooving iron on top of one of the tires and let it basically burn a hole through it. He had left at daylight bought me a replacement (his words "only fair I ruined your old one") and started slicing it. Finished up and we left York around 6pm that evening and rolled into Crawford's a little after midnight. Dropped off the rigs off the trailer and straight to trail 1..no sleep in 48 hours.

Now all that said, tire tech has came a long way. I wouldnt groove a set of Boggers or thornbirds today unless they were free and I couldnt sell them. There are a couple options (Krawlers and Treps come to mind immediately) that have more flex, more grip and better tread design than Ill ever re-create.

Anyway. Congrats on the Jeep its working well for you. At the end of the day this is all about having fun and you are doing that. Maybe just tone down the teaching part just a bit.
 
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