Packing heat on campus

[hscrugby]

A group of responsible, trained, 21 year old CCW holders does not bother me any more than a 30 year old, Mom's basement dwelling, PS3 playing campus policeman that happened to pass their joke of a training course and background check, them gets set loose to protect and serve (by writing tickets on cars and busting up parties).

Awesome.
So all the CCW folks that are college kids are awesome 100% responsible never screw up.
And all campus police are jack asses?
WOW.
Great argument there. Nothing like stereo typing.

Do some campus police meet that description? Sure.
Do some 21 year olds meet your description? Sure.

Are some college kids irresponsible jack asses? Sure.
Are some campus police very well trained very competent? Sure. (In fact I had a VERY high regard for all the campus police on my campus. Other than the parking ticket issues, but that was because we didn't follow the rules cause we were lazy)

I haven't taken either, so I might be wrong here. But I'd guess most police forces have a decent amount of training required for positions that carry firearms. Also isn't it the same background check for a conceal permit?
Or at least a similar background check.
Possibly less, cause I don't think they hit your credit for CC?

 

[kcarroll]

this is off topic, but i welcome any conversation.
to be honest, i dont care if george bush himself listened to every cell phone conversation i had.
Fact is the gov't doesnt have enough $ to tap everyones lines. They spend $ on known threats and potential threats based off of tips.
If i ever get to the point that the Gov't is suspicious enough of me to tap my line, so be it. I am glad that they have the capability to moniter serious threats and assess them to see if they are important enough to monitor.
BUT like the CC topic, the administration at VT suspecting that the kid would shoot, and then kicking him out, would be EXACTLY like like wire tapping a line and making an arrest because someone is a potential threat.
if you dont agree with wire taps for fighting terrosism then why would you agree on preemptive (sp?) expulsion of the student to fight shooting sprees?
all crime is preventable with measures to try to stop it from ever happening, but just like a shooting in a school, or a terrist on a plane, you have to have the proper means to react to the situation when it happens

I'm against cc on campus by students, faculty I'm fine with.
I don't know you, but your statement strikes me funny. It seems folks growing up today have always lived in good times and trust what they are told. Lots of kids today say they would trade loss of some civil liberties to gain some safety.
What they don't understand is, our civil liberties are our safety. We will always have some form of terrorism, but the fascist way in which it is being manipulated today is unfortunate.
All crimes are certainly not preventable in our society. It doesn't cost as much as you think to sniff the phone lines. The government has been in bed with the telco industry since the beginning. Digital switching equipment allows them to use key word triggers to initiate a digital archive for later review. All automated except for the listening part. Have you ever heard of carnivore? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivore_(FBI)
It didn't exist until it was outed as being used and has since been abandoned. Almost ten yrs has passed since it was developed, computer h/w and s/w have changed substantially, can you imagine what they are using now?
I don't want to live in a "minority report" type place. My privacy is of utmost importance to me, and it should be to us all.

 

[raleighjeepguy]

You people wait 9 pages to come in. My back is killing me

 

[Mac5005]

I cant believe a link was just placed to wikipedia, this thread really has gone all to shit now. Wikipedia, the place where anyone can post info about anything, doesnt matter if it true or not. I'm not saying that your link about Carnivore is false by any means, just wanted to state that Wikipedia is a load of shit in general......

raleighjeepguy - i enjoyed debating with you about this issue, you made some very good points, and did a ood job backing them up. I'm open to talk about any issue, if you have any hot topics you are thinking of, post a new thread, this one has gone to shit

I'm out

 

[raleighjeepguy]

raleighjeepguy - i enjoyed debating with you about this issue, you made some very good points, and did a ood job backing them up. I'm open to talk about any issue, if you have any hot topics you are thinking of, post a new thread, this one has gone to shit

I have major issues with chicago style pizza, the disney channel, corporate america abusing parents, The guy off CSI-Miami (SERIOUS ISSUES), light beer, The miami dolphins, bandwagon college fans, THE OHIO STATE FUCKEYES, Oprah (both the fat and skinny one), Jeep, Gas prices, hippies, people who don't shower, and a few other things. I am actually have a series I'm doing "100 rants in 100 days" on my website but unfortunatly I'm only on 98 though.

 

[uglyjeepoffroad]

Awesome.
So all the CCW folks that are college kids are awesome 100% responsible never screw up.
And all campus police are jack asses?
WOW.
Great argument there. Nothing like stereo typing.
Do some campus police meet that description? Sure.
Do some 21 year olds meet your description? Sure.
Are some college kids irresponsible jack asses? Sure.
Are some campus police very well trained very competent? Sure. (In fact I had a VERY high regard for all the campus police on my campus. Other than the parking ticket issues, but that was because we didn't follow the rules cause we were lazy)
I haven't taken either, so I might be wrong here. But I'd guess most police forces have a decent amount of training required for positions that carry firearms. Also isn't it the same background check for a conceal permit?
Or at least a similar background check.
Possibly less, cause I don't think they hit your credit for CC?

Did I say any of that?
Did I issue an absolute statement anywhere in my post?
Its called exaggeration to make a point.
And I did say I have NO MORE PROBLEM with a responsible adult, who has passed his state's requirements carrying a gun for protection than I have with a campus security guard carrying a gun in the same situation.
Age is not the end all requirement for common sense and good judgment. It has more to do with the person.
I know some older people who are freaking idiots and some 15 year olds I would trust my life with.
That is why prejudice in any form is wrong.
There are perfectly good reasons to hate and fear people on an individual basis.

 

[Rich]

As has always been and will always be the case, the only people laws apply to are those who live by them. Criminals, by definition, do NOT live by the laws.
A gun free zone is only gun free for those willing to follow the rule.

Exactly.

 

[Banned User]

My biggest complaint isn't so much the guy with the CC permit, that's responsible, etc etc.
It's the jack ass roommate that suddenly has "easy" access to a gun when CAS22 (or whoever) was going out for a pint so he left his gun back at the room.

I know your not calling me out and that it was just an example, but whoever would do that deserves to go to jail for it. As for leaving the gun in easy access, it takes an idiot to do that. i agree that some people might do stupid stuff like this with their guns, but whats to keep people from being irresponsible with anything else?
guns, knives, baseball bats, cars. anything can be used irresponsibly, causing injury or death. Should i be banned from driving on campus because of the potential that someone could steal my car and run over students?

just because somthing can go wrong doesnt mean its bad. With that logic what about other safety devices?

A (Seatbelt/CC Gun) is a safety device which is there in case of a (wreck/shooting). Sometimes freak incidences happen and injury or death is caused by (seatbelts/guns). Does that mean that we should ban (seatbelts/guns) because of the potential for accidental injury, despite the many lives that are saved annually by (seatbelts/guns)?

 

[raleighjeepguy]

Should i be banned from driving on campus because of the potential that someone could steal my car and run over students?

WUT? Stop Just stop. You can't compare a functional object like a car to a weapon. A car can take you places like work etc. A GUN IS A WEAPON no matter how you spin it. Why don't you get a list going about how shitty of an apple an orange is while you are it b/c that would just about the same amount of sense.

As for leaving the gun in easy access, it takes an idiot to do that.

A dorm room is 12'x12' at max. Where isn't easily accessible?

 

[kcarroll]

AND... If security were not inexistant at most schools, then I would not be argueing the point to be allowed to carry. If getting onto campus was as hard as it is to get on a Military base, or into a Federal Agency Building, then i would say to keep the laws they way they are, BUT....
a) that would prove to be a logistical nightmare, based just on the change needed to the infrastructure of schools
b) the gov't would not shell ou that much money to make all schools that way
c) there is not enough manpower available needed to run security in schools, as it is run on bases, and buildings, once again, you would have to pay the security money, again raising the cost of the implementation of protection
d) there is not enough well trained, and available security specailists in the country to support the manpower needed for daily security needs, not even taking account for the fact of having people to respond IMMEDIATELY in case of a security breach
-> so then you ask what is another possible solution, allow CC holders to carry in these places, to act as, if you will, fulltime volunteer security specialists in every classroom, everyday on campus. This is only one possible solution to the problem, and if anyone has a better idea, i'm all ears

Students should not be allowed to carry handguns on campus, period and cc for staff and faculty who wish to(I bet most won't). One problem I can see with your particular plan is liability. Say you agree to be a vol sec specialist and you fail to act, further, what if someone takes your gun from you and uses it for harm? Are you derelict in your duties for either failing to act or having been negligent for lack of control of your firearm? Don't get me wrong, I'm for cc and personal protection. I don't trust the system or the responsibility-bucking youth of today to be the solution.
I was an RA in the "football dorm" at ASU for 2 yrs. I have seen some very intelligent, responsible people do some seriously stupid shit based on emotion. Firearms do not have a place in todays college campus life. As sad as that is, IT IS. WE are becoming more and more desensitized as a species to violence. People don't have respect for anything anymore, life, liberty or the pursuit of happiness. The value of a life is important, they might not all be precious, but they are important. We will always have nut jobs that hurt people, we just have to keep things in perspective. Laws won't prevent gun violence on open campuses, neither will the threat of possibly armed students.

 

[Banned User]

WUT? Stop Just stop. You can't compare a functional object like a car to a weapon. A car can take you places like work etc. A GUN IS A WEAPON no matter how you spin it. Why don't you get a list going about how shitty of an apple an orange is while you are it b/c that would just about the same amount of sense.
A dorm room is 12'x12' at max. Where isn't easily accessible?

are you saying that my .270 deer rifle is made only for killing people?

are you saying that you CANNOT use a wrench as a hammer?

you dont seem to understand what has been said many times.

PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE, guns dont. If you ban legal guns because they are used illegally sometimes, why not ban everything else that ever gets used illegally.

i have worded this many many different ways and everyone else seems to get it. what do you not understand? I am going to defend myself with weapons in an emergency. why does it matter what the weapon is?

 

[hscrugby]

A (Seatbelt/CC Gun) is a safety device which is there in case of a (wreck/shooting). Sometimes freak incidences happen and injury or death is caused by (seatbelts/guns). Does that mean that we should ban (seatbelts/guns) because of the potential for accidental injury, despite the many lives that are saved annually by (seatbelts/guns)?

They did it with airbags.
Have you noticed how all 'modern' air bags are much less powerful than the original ones were.
The reason for this? Kids and elderly could be killed by the air bags. However with the new airbags being less powerful, you can save some percentage of the kids/elderly who shouldn't be in the front seat, or who should have the airbag turned off.
(Same for people that sit very close to the steering wheel)
But if you are above ~200 lbs, airbags are now 50-75% less effective.
(It's been 10+ years since I looked into this for a statistics class presentation. So don't quote me on the exact numbers)


Gov't regulations are ridiculous. I personally think a school should be able to regulate how they want, for their school. Yes public/private whatever. I have serious issues with the whole "this is good for everyone" theory our government has to take.


Oh yea, sorry about using your name, you just happened to be posting in on the other side of the argument. Nothing personal
Feel free to insert any name there. Hell put mine, I was a retard way to often in college. I just thank god we didn't have a harbor freight close to where I went to school. I'd have SO killed myself with some of the cheap "tools" (think flame thrower, etc) from there.

are you saying that my .270 deer rifle is made only for killing people?

Nah, he's saying it's meant to be a weapon. Those deer/squirrels/random annoying bird/neighbor's cat all would argue it was a weapon.
1. any instrument or device for use in attack or defense in combat, fighting, or war, as a sword, rifle, or cannon.
2. anything used against an opponent, adversary, or victim: the deadly weapon of satire.
3. Zoology. any part or organ serving for attack or defense, as claws, horns, teeth, or stings.
–verb (used with object)
4. to supply or equip with a weapon or weapons: to weapon aircraft with heat-seeking missiles.





As an aside, this is definitely a debate/subject that no one's opinion is going to change on.
(well not from random forum posts made between conference calls. )

 

[Banned User]

Students should not be allowed to carry handguns on campus, period and cc for staff and faculty who wish to(I bet most won't). you should probably start reading this whole thing from the begining, we already addressed that saying only staff can carry is not even close to a reasonable idea
I don't trust the system or the responsibility-bucking youth of today to be the solution.you dont trust them enough to allow them to protect their own lives?
Firearms do not have a place in todays college campus life. but if someone is going to bring one on and start shooting it, why not be evenly protected?
The value of a life is important, they might not all be precious, but they are important. i totally agree with this sentence the way it is worded, except you dont mean it the same as me i dont think. when i say it i mean i value life enough to want everyone to have the means to protect it. if that means the use of CC to protect life, thats what i want to see , because i value life
Laws won't prevent gun violence on open campuses, neither will the threat of possibly armed students.history has proven otherwise. Every country and city that has ever banned guns has had a dramatic increase in crime. Recent legislation such as the castle doctrine, (right to use deadly force inside of your own home) has resulted in lowered crime rates. You cant assume that all criminals are stupid. some are geniouses that choose the wrong path. many are smart enough to realize that if the go somewhere where guns arent allowed, they can shoot without opposition. do you honestly think that someone is going to say, "well i want to kill all these people, but im not allowed to have guns there, so let me use my knife instead."?

.

 

[Banned User]

URECross.. federal land, firearms are a no-no..

Each national forrest has its own twists to the federal laws. Uwharrie has laws that allow for hunting during season, and CC anytime of the year for personal defense with a .22 Calibre. or smaller (kind of a stupid law...i know that a .22 is very small for personal defense but thats the rules.)

Rich, just to clarify, i made some more calls and got a little more info about this.

On the uwharrie gamelands, You can only carry a .22 cal pistol with a barrel of less than 7", UNLESS there is a hunting season in progress which allows larger calibre weapons and you have a valid N.C. hunting license.

However... if you are in a campsite, then you may carry any size bore on your pistol for personal defense.

so with a CC you can carry your normal pistol at campgrounds, but only a .22 in the woodlands.

 

[Banned User]

Oh yea, sorry about using your name, you just happened to be posting in on the other side of the argument. Nothing personal
Feel free to insert any name there.

no problems here, i wasnt upset at all, and i knew it was just an example. (if you upset me i might and then we wont be able to have guns in our houses/offices while we post on here)

 

[raleighjeepguy]

are you saying that my .270 deer rifle is made only for killing people?

Dude are you not reading my posts or are you just dense? You've run all over what I've said by misquoting or misconstruing what I've said. I said a weapon. The dictionary is a beautiful thing. A car is a piece of transportation and entertainment for most of us. A gun is a weapon. Just in case you get slack with it I'll post it just for you.

gun
–noun
1. a weapon consisting of a metal tube, with mechanical attachments, from which projectiles are shot by the force of an explosive; a piece of ordnance.

car
–noun
1. an automobile.
2. a vehicle running on rails, as a streetcar or railroad car.
3. the part of an elevator, balloon, modern airship, etc., that carries the passengers, freight, etc.

Do I need to put the definition of apples and oranges up also?

 

[Banned User]

Dude are you not reading my posts or are you just dense? You've run all over what I've said by misquoting or misconstruing what I've said. I said a weapon. The dictionary is a beautiful thing. A car is a piece of transportation and entertainment for most of us. A gun is a weapon. Just in case you get slack with it I'll post it just for you.
Do I need to put the definition of apples and oranges up also?

is there a single point in this conversation that you havent missed? i know what a gun is, i know what a car is. i just think its funny that you think that by not allowing CC on campus, it will be a safer place. you keep talking about how bad guns can be and why we shouldnt have CC on campus as if guns were a problem. they are just a hunk of matter that can be used to fire a projectile. what i was saying was that a car can also be a projectile. ANYTHING CAN. my question is this,

Why should we ban guns and not other things that could be used for harm?

was that broken down barney style enough?

a gun is a tool. it can kill people, and it can be used for hunting and sport target shooting.

there are plenty of other things that have have multiple uses, including killing people.

again, should we ban everything that can kill?

simple, simple question that hasent been answered in like 5 pages




another thing, if you are looking down the barrel of a criminals gun, would you honestly still think that you were glad no one else in the room had CC? I mean i'm sure the police will take care of everything when they got there in 10 minutes. It ONLY took the police 54 minutes to get into columbine.

 

[kcarroll]

Originally Posted by kcarroll View Post
Students should not be allowed to carry handguns on campus, period and cc for staff and faculty who wish to(I bet most won't). you should probably start reading this whole thing from the begining, we already addressed that saying only staff can carry is not even close to a reasonable idea
I don't trust the system or the responsibility-bucking youth of today to be the solution.you dont trust them enough to allow them to protect their own lives?
Firearms do not have a place in todays college campus life. but if someone is going to bring one on and start shooting it, why not be evenly protected?
The value of a life is important, they might not all be precious, but they are important. i totally agree with this sentence the way it is worded, except you dont mean it the same as me i dont think. when i say it i mean i value life enough to want everyone to have the means to protect it. if that means the use of CC to protect life, thats what i want to see , because i value life
Laws won't prevent gun violence on open campuses, neither will the threat of possibly armed students.history has proven otherwise. Every country and city that has ever banned guns has had a dramatic increase in crime. Recent legislation such as the castle doctrine, (right to use deadly force inside of your own home) has resulted in lowered crime rates. You cant assume that all criminals are stupid. some are geniouses that choose the wrong path. many are smart enough to realize that if the go somewhere where guns arent allowed, they can shoot without opposition. do you honestly think that someone is going to say, "well i want to kill all these people, but im not allowed to have guns there, so let me use my knife instead."?

You sure are full of yourself, you're so close to the situation and your fear for your safety is clouding your view. Violence is not a new problem. I'm a gun person, really I am. I think everyone should be required to own a firearm and I think open carry is a better deterrent than CC. If safety on campus is an issue, then the school should resolve it. If they aren't doing their job then go to another school. Violence can/will penetrate any and all situations. Scared to walk across campus at night? Start carrying a bat, you don't need a gun to protect yourself all the time.
To the end that it's necessary for students to protect themselves, what about all of the underclassmen that aren't 21? I personally think the legal age for everything should be 18. I think CC should be an option at 18. I just don't believe guns belong in school. Lots of folks are very uncomfortable around guns for one reason or another. Those folks deserve to have the same rights as you, what about them?
I understand the personal freedoms issue, lets just not forget about the personal freedoms of others. Schools should be a place to foster learning, I guess that sounds naive, but it's the truth.

 

[raleighjeepguy]

is there a single point in this conversation that you havent missed?

No I actually like to read what I'm responding to especially if I'm going to quote it. I mean dude you took the time to copy/paste what I said and still managed to F it up for like the 5th time. Get a reading comprehension book or something.

a gun is a tool. it can kill people, and it can be used for hunting and sport target shooting.

1)a gun is a weapon
2)theres not going to be any sport shooting or hunting on campus is there so in this situation those purposes hold no water.

Why should we ban guns and not other things that could be used for harm?

was that broken down barney style enough?

Other things are banned. Follow here buddy b/c since you are the one fighting for this you should know some facts. In most schools brass knuckles, knives over 2"s, and other weapons are not allowed. Alcohol is not allowed on most campus's and neither are drugs. Automobiles don't count unless you want to carry every bit of supply that a university uses from the curb to its destination. A gun is a weapon plain and simple. If you want to sport shoot you aren't going to do it on campus period.

What else Mr.Barney would you like banned to make it fair? I mean I can't really find your point out of this.

again, should we ban everything that can kill?

refer to above. Weapons of any sort are not allowed on campus unless you are referring to pepper spray which I'd honestly have to check on. Even then that is considered non lethal force so thats thrown out period. If you can find one object that is only considered a "weapon of lethal force" that is allowed on a college campus I will leave this thread........I will still question your ability to read...........but I will leave.

 

[kcarroll]

is there a single point in this conversation that you havent missed? i know what a gun is, i know what a car is. i just think its funny that you think that by not allowing CC on campus, it will be a safer place. you keep talking about how bad guns can be and why we shouldnt have CC on campus as if guns were a problem. they are just a hunk of matter that can be used to fire a projectile. what i was saying was that a car can also be a projectile. ANYTHING CAN. my question is this,
Why should we ban guns and not other things that could be used for harm?
was that broken down barney style enough?
a gun is a tool. it can kill people, and it can be used for hunting and sport target shooting.
there are plenty of other things that have have multiple uses, including killing people.
again, should we ban everything that can kill?
simple, simple question that hasent been answered in like 5 pages
another thing, if you are looking down the barrel of a criminals gun, would you honestly still think that you were glad no one else in the room had CC? I mean i'm sure the police will take care of everything when they got there in 10 minutes. It ONLY took the police 54 minutes to get into columbine.

Guns are different. It takes less commitment to use one to take a life. With a bat, knife, rock, glass bottle, etc you have to fully commit and get close enough to get some on you. With a gun, any weak-kneed, cum stain can end a life. Do YOU really think guns are the same as any other device that could be used to end a life?

 

[Paul]

A logical debate on laws in our country involving younger voters?I am in.LONG LIVE THE SECOND AMENDMENT!!!!!!!

 

[Banned User]

Do YOU really think guns are the same as any other device that could be used to end a life?

For personal defense, yes. When stuff hits the fan, i think the victim should have whatever they can, be it fists, a pipe, a hammer, guns, knives, whetever. You dont go looking for fights, but if it comes to you and threatens your life, i see no difference in what you use. Maybe somethings will attract more media attention then others but oh well. The media has trigger words that make them wail and moan and "gun" is one of them.

I still have yet to hear from anyone a reason that I shouldnt be allowed to defend my self with a gun on campus when im 21, or why my girlfriend shouldn't be allowed to now. When a gunman is comming after me or her, should we pepper spray them?

 

[Paul]

If you can read this,Thank a teacher.If you can read it in english,thank a soldier.

 

[RatLabGuy]

Hm, I like cheese.
That is all.

 

[kcarroll]

For personal defense, yes. When stuff hits the fan, i think the victim should have whatever they can, be it fists, a pipe, a hammer, guns, knives, whetever. You dont go looking for fights, but if it comes to you and threatens your life, i see no difference in what you use. Maybe somethings will attract more media attention then others but oh well. The media has trigger words that make them wail and moan and "gun" is one of them.
I still have yet to hear from anyone a reason that I shouldnt be allowed to defend my self with a gun on campus when im 21, or why my girlfriend shouldn't be allowed to now. When a gunman is comming after me or her, should we pepper spray them?

Because guns do not belong on school grounds. Are you really that self absorbed? Can you not stop for a minute and consider those around you that may not feel comfortable with you carrying a firearm on campus? Ever known anyone involved in a violent crime with a firearm? Some folks are affected negatively by the experience for the rest of their lives. Not everyone has had a positive experience with firearms and their personal safety, so while for you it reassures safety, for others it can cause severe disruption of normal functionality. Step outside of your own-itty-bitty-world for a minute and consider the folks around you. I understand where you are coming from, really I do, but you need to understand there are other people in this world who have not lived the same life you have and may have a different perspective on every day things you take for granted. At least CC is now a legal option, how in the hell do you think people survived college until now? Because it isn't as essential as you have convinced yourself it is.
If I didn't feel safe on campus and couldn't carry a gun, I would start pressing the administration to improve safety. As much as I wish everyone openly carried a sidearm, that's just not reality. If you feel that strongly about personal safety, why not try to put your energy into pressing for a campus organization providing safety or escorts at night?
Me, me, me is all I get out of your poor excuse of written expression. Perhaps, you should spend less time cleaning your daddy's gun and more time practicing the spelling, grammar and punctuation.

Oh, and I also love cheese, bacon, bullets, jeeps and habanero peppers