What happened in that van?

RHSCTJ said:
Ok let's say the guy ran to ditch the weed he had in his pocket. We'll even assume he did wrestle with the cops when they caught up to him. I'll go a step further and assume the cop knew him and his criminal background. Does any of that justify him not breathing anymore?
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especially when the entire black populace of an entire country along with major media have set their minds and sights on racist thug cops and bringing them down.


Dude may have been a drug dealing low life black thug, that didn't deserve air, but the cameras were and will be rolling. All the more reason to , as a LEO, to do it by the book, so to speak.
 
RHSCTJ said:
Ok let's say the guy ran to ditch the weed he had in his pocket. We'll even assume he did wrestle with the cops when they caught up to him. I'll go a step further and assume the cop knew him and his criminal background. Does any of that justify him not breathing anymore?
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No none of that justifies taking a life. Unless you're in Saudi Arabia or Iran. That man did not deserve to die. From what the news reports say, I can see how the arrest would be lawful. What happened after was anything but lawful. Baltimore PD fucked up royally, and should be held accountable. When suspect is in a LEO custody, said LEO is 100% accountable for their safety and health.
 
 
Bogleparsons said:
I think Ron has an issue with authority figures lol....
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He may..but what I read was " let's try this stereotype game on for size"

I think he deliberately skewed his numbers to make the point about stereotyping.

I believe his 4 categories of Leo are true...I don't agree with his percentage numbers though.
 
Dylan W. said:
He may..but what I read was " let's try this stereotype game on for size"

I think he deliberately skewed his numbers to make the point about stereotyping.

I believe his 4 categories of Leo are true...I don't agree with his percentage numbers though.
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This.
It was hyperbole executed poorly from lack of sleep or emotional energy...or just lack of mastery of the English language.
 
Cops fucked up BIG time. They deserve to go to jail.
 
drkelly said:
Cops fucked up BIG time. They deserve to go to jail.
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It sure seems that way but none of us were there. Let's wait for more details.
 
Ron said:
I dont care what coppers call a clue, me running is not probable cause for a stop, even a Terry stop. This has been established by the US constitution and upheld by the US Supreme Court.


Your job as a LEO is NOT to interpret the law. It is not to assume or guess what someone is doing. It is honestly not to "protect and serve" it is to enforce the laws currently on the books. If you stop someone you think may be breaking the law you have just violated that person's rights. You can only stop someone one you have probable cause to suspect has in fact committed a crime. Otherwise you are in violation of their 4A rights.
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Can't agree more with everything Ron Said

Yes..the numbers are skewed, purposefully. But it goes along with the assumption "All black males are criminals" and "All cops are corrupt"

You can't ASSUME (make an ass out of U and Me) anything. As an officer of the law, you uphold the laws established while also keeping an oath to the constitution. Officers under 40 can't seem to remember that. Did they stop giving that oath in the late 90's?

Regardless of what he's done in the past, and assumed (there's that word again) to be capable of in the future, we have established rights. When those are no longer relevant, then we mind as well be the
josh m said:
Saudi Arabia or Iran.
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because without upholding the constitution, the amendments, and our freedoms IN ADDITION to the law, we're no better than those countries.

And while PART of me (the part that grew up in a poor neighborhood, attended a black university on a Minority scholarship, and formed opinions based on my mothers experience as a child support enforcement officer for 30 yrs) agrees that we ALL know with his priors and general geographical location what he was up to, and how this would play out in the coming years....he is a US citizen. Many MANY men died to protect his rights. It's a dishonor to all of them to deny this man access to the same rights because he chose an easy path.
 
shawn said:
Let's say you're at a workday.

Ranger Walker asks you where the shovels are. You tell her they're back at the culvert. But, unbeknownst to you, someone has since picked them up and moved them, and they are no longer at the culvert.

You have committed a Federal felony, punishable by jail time in a Federal prison. It does not matter that you made the error inadvertently, or that you didn't intend to deceive. You could go to jail.

I can't say this shit enough. People think that just because they're not out robbing banks, they're not committing crimes. There are thousands upon thousands of offenses on the books. There are so many, no one has been able to accurately count them. They're punishable by incarceration, fines, or even death. And should the gaze of a prosecutor turn on you, they can and will find something to charge you with.
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You touched on the word "punishABLE". This requires due process of law. In order for someone to actually see any federal prison time, they must see their day in court. I don't care what your criminal history is, any judge that wouldn't throw this situation out of court and laugh in the face of the prosecuting attorney isn't worth his or her salt. The term "mens rea" comes into play here. Mens rea is a legal phrase used to describe the mental state a person must be in while committing a crime for it to be intentional. It can refer to a general intent to break the law or a specific, premeditated plan to commit a particular offense. Since being asked a question about the location of shovels at a work day has no bearing on any criminal intent, it doesn't apply. However, if the shovels were stolen and the ranger asked me where I got them and I lie to them, it does exhibit mens rea. There is a criminal intent to my deception.
 
Ha...just tuned to CNN a minute. They are talking about my theory.
Just speculation of course, but they're talking about that now.

And I see homeboys, in the protest mob smoking weed right in front of the police station. They are daring the police to do something about it. I do not see the police making any arrest. Lol that would probably be very very dangerous.

That crowd is just itching.
 
Dylan W. said:
And I see homeboys, in the protest mob smoking weed right in front of the police station. They are daring the police to do something about it. I do not see the police making any arrest. Lol that would probably be very very dangerous.

That crowd is just itching.
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Worth noting that MJ is decriminalized here for small quantities. Most cops don't bother with any kind of ticket unless they need it as a door to get in for something else.
 
ManglerYJ said:
You touched on the word "punishABLE". This requires due process of law. In order for someone to actually see any federal prison time, they must see their day in court. I don't care what your criminal history is, any judge that wouldn't throw this situation out of court and laugh in the face of the prosecuting attorney isn't worth his or her salt. The term "mens rea" comes into play here. Mens rea is a legal phrase used to describe the mental state a person must be in while committing a crime for it to be intentional. It can refer to a general intent to break the law or a specific, premeditated plan to commit a particular offense. Since being asked a question about the location of shovels at a work day has no bearing on any criminal intent, it doesn't apply. However, if the shovels were stolen and the ranger asked me where I got them and I lie to them, it does exhibit mens rea. There is a criminal intent to my deception.
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Nope.

Mens rea specifically doesn't apply to my example. That's why I posted it. In fact, you can be convicted of many federal offenses without mens rea. It's been heavily eroded in the last 30 years.

Scooter Libby and Martha Stewart both did jail time for making false statements to a Federal official, so good luck getting a judge to laugh off the charges.

But the likelihood that you'd ever see trial is pretty slim. They'd pile on a half dozen similar charges, let you see 20 or 25 years stacked up against you, and get you to plead out or testify against someone else. Don't forget about mandatory minimum sentences, either.

http://www.bhorowitz.com/why_i_did_not_go_to_jail

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424053111904060604576570801651620000

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970204903804577082770135339442

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/03/29/crime-law-criminal-unfair-column/70630978/
 
shawn said:
Nope.

Mens rea specifically doesn't apply to my example. That's why I posted it. In fact, you can be convicted of many federal offenses without mens rea. It's been heavily eroded in the last 30 years.

Scooter Libby and Martha Stewart both did jail time for making false statements to a Federal official, so good luck getting a judge to laugh off the charges.

But the likelihood that you'd ever see trial is pretty slim. They'd pile on a half dozen similar charges, let you see 20 or 25 years stacked up against you, and get you to plead out or testify against someone else. Don't forget about mandatory minimum sentences, either.

http://www.bhorowitz.com/why_i_did_not_go_to_jail

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424053111904060604576570801651620000

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970204903804577082770135339442

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/03/29/crime-law-criminal-unfair-column/70630978/
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The investigations (and allegations of lying to federal officials) of Scooter Libby and Martha Stewart were in relation to other crimes that they were both committing. It's not like they were being asked "what time is it?" and they gave the wrong answer. In Martha's case, she was asked if she had inside information regarding the sale of a stock (or whatever) and she said no, when in fact it was proven that she did. In Scooter's case.... well, he WAS a Federal Employee, so he should know all about lying to a Federal Employee. Anyway... the point of mens rea is that it establishes a case for the outcome of the lie and if the person actually had the mindset.

Title 18, United States Code, Section 1001 makes it a crime to: 1) knowingly and willfully; 2) make any materially false, fictitious or fraudulent statement or representation; 3) in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative or judicial branch of the United States.

In the case you provided, the person did not knowingly and willfully make a false statement because they had no knowledge of the second person's actions. There is also no potential gain of their mis-statement. If, however, the person knew the shovels were moved and the purpose of him telling the Ranger that the shovels were one place in an effort to delay their duties as a Ranger so that they could sneak onto the trails or commit some other crime undetected, then the concept of mens rea is in effect.

Oh.... and name one person that went to prison SOLELY on a charge of Lying to a Federal Official......... It's a tack-on charge once they get something else to stick. Martha Stewart went to prison for securities fraud and obstruction of justice (where the lying to a Federal agent was stuffed). Scooter was tagged for Perjury (a much bigger deal than just lying to a Federal agent since you are also under oath and made aware of the dangers of perjury), obstruction of justice and other stuff. Ali Saleh Kahlah Al-Marri (enemy combatant who was snared with a Section 1001 sentence) was actually tagged for and plead guilty to one count of conspiracy to provide material support to a foreign terrorist organization.
 
This is all very educating.

I bet those protesters in Baltimore would love to hear all about this. They'd probably all pack up and head home with a better understanding of what happened in that van.:D

Them white devils didn't get they neck broke.
 
Dylan W. said:
This is all very educating.

I bet those protesters in Baltimore would love to hear all about this. They'd probably all pack up and head home with a better understanding of what happened in that van.:D

Them white devils didn't get they neck broke.
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Racially Motivated Police Brutality protests are 2015's version of the "Occupy Insert-your-town-name-here" protests of 2011. Every town has to have one or they aren't cool. It's like getting a NHL franchise in your city. Or a Hooters, just with better Bar-B-Cue.
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Protesters will protest, even if they don't know what they are protesting about. Rioters will riot. Looters will loot. At Michigan State University's Spartan Village campus housing, there was a riot every year, if they won a game, tournament, or whatever or if they lost. It wasn't a party until someone's couch got set on fire and a flaming dumpster rolled into the quad.
 
All I can say is you have much more faith in fair and equitable treatment by our justice system than I do.

That said, I oppose the looters/rioters just as much as I do the crooked cops.
 
Watch..

No one will be found responsible. No one will ever know what happened in the van. Must be the vans fault. Vans can't do time.

If that van doesn't go to the scrapper...Baltimore will burn.
 
Dylan W. said:
Watch..

No one will be found responsible. No one will ever know what happened in the van. Must be the vans fault. Vans can't do time.

If that van doesn't go to the scrapper...Baltimore will burn.
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Guns don't kill people, vans do - even unarmed ones.

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redneckcj5guy said:
You do realize that i am a 52 y/o honky ass white dude correct?
The webz makes me look like Dre.
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First time I met you I was to say the least a bit confused o_O

shawn said:
There's no such thing. A typical US citizen averages three felonies a day.
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Call me an over achiever then!!
 
shawn said:
There's no such thing. A typical US citizen averages three felonies a day.
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Hell I believe it. They really do see general public as such criminals.
*true story*
I've been dragged out of my truck, handcuffed, searched, interrogated, detained for three hours (while 6 officers picked up every little blade of grass in my vehicle and sniffed it), interrogated again, accused of gangs affiliation because of a Warn winch strap keychain, everything from Hells Angels to Bloods, cussed at, ... And eventually released with no citation whatsoever, all for having a burnt out turn signal. Good thing I only committed one felony that day. :shaking: :lol:
 
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