Why do jobs that don't benefit from a college degree require a college degree?

[fordwheelinman]

Engineers have their own way of thinking and seeing the world, just like psychologists and mathematicians and musicians do. It takes a lot of exposure and adaptation to be on a common wavelength.

They do have their own way of thinking and looking at the world, it stems from all book, and is very often only feasible on paper, not in the real, practical world.

Engineers would climb over a pile of virgins, just to screw a mechanic....

Colleges really should cut out one full semester of the books, and require that semester be spent hands on, on the floor, working on whatever it is they will be designing. Then maybe once they've spent 6 months upside down and sideways, contorting themselves to reach fasteners, taken out 15 parts to get to 1, or spent thousands of hard earned dollars on special tools that only do one job on one engine/transmission/ vehicle, maybe they wouldn't take such pleasure in being chest thumping pencil pushers shoving their degrees around needlessly for sake of "design"........damn I found my soap box again.....

 

[Monkeynono]

It could definitely be the start of how the movie "Idiocracy" begins to unfold in real life.

Who knew that movie was a documentary from the future

 

[Southern_Transplant]

Wonder if this is agency specific? They are very thorough here.

Given your agency's actual use of the degrees listed, you are probably correct. But most GS-7 and above jobs now list a BA/MA as a requirement. They usually don't say what they have to be in for most series employees. So, I don't see CHRA tracking it down on a routine basis.

 

[Croatan_Kid]

Engineers would climb over a pile of virgins, just to screw a mechanic....

They engineer stuff to be easily assembled to save money. They don't care how it comes apart because it's not their job. They just report to the bean counters and make it faster/cheaper to put together!

Given your agency's actual use of the degrees listed, you are probably correct. But most GS-7 and above jobs now list a BA/MA as a requirement. They usually don't say what they have to be in for most series employees. So, I don't see CHRA tracking it down on a routine basis.

What bugs me is the GS crowd where I work don't get drug tested. Makes perfect sense. The people that run the place and work in the business department can hoover all the shneef they want. Brilliant. I think they do too...they're insane. They always refer to where we work as a business. We're an entity of the government, owned by the government, that fixes government assets for other government agencies, and is entirely funded by taxpayer money. If we were a business, we'd have filed Chapter 11 probably 50 years ago because we're so damn top heavy. 30 years ago, there were TWO GS-15s. Now we have 18 of those fawkers. They get fat bonuses too. Most got there from the old "F up, move up" method.

I'll get off the soapbox now too

 

[justjeepin86]

It's not "their own way"

It's the RIGHT way

I wish there was a damn throw up emoji.

Even though I know you are kidding.

 

[shawn]

Branching off from the psychology thread. I have an engineering degree. I never use it in my job. @CLRracer mentioned you had to have a degree to be a firefighter at many places. Why? Seems really dumb to me.

Because of Griggs v. Duke Power. Employers needed a new way to determine that you had the ability and knowledge to do the job

 

[R Q]

I would say that in this day and age it's also a measure to make sure you've gone through the complete societal indoctrination process through one of the approved entities. But that's just me lol

 

[drkelly]

They engineer stuff to be easily assembled to save money. They don't care how it comes apart because it's not their job. They just report to the bean counters and make it faster/cheaper to put together!

That is not the case where I work. Anything I design has to be approved by an engineer in the service engineering group as well as an engineer in the manufacturing engineering group. Anything new that I design I have to present in a development loop team meeting where representatives from many areas of the company are present and voice their opinion if it is OK or not.

I don't see how a non-engineer could function as a product design responsible engineer where I work.

 

[Bebop]

Branching off from the psychology thread. I have an engineering degree. I never use it in my job. @CLRracer mentioned you had to have a degree to be a firefighter at many places. Why? Seems really dumb to me.

Proves to a potential employer you are coachable, can sit for an extended period of time (4+ years) learning some shit you're mildly interested in, then complete a series of arbitrary tasks in organized fashion using your brain.
Basically you're have the basic potential of being a good employee.

That is not the case where I work. Anything I design has to be approved by an engineer in the service engineering group as well as an engineer in the manufacturing engineering group. Anything new that I design I have to present in a development loop team meeting where representatives from many areas of the company are present and voice their opinion if it is OK or not.

Having spent 2.5 years in the plant that builds the products that the engineering team you work in designed (def no personal attack, you know that), there's a few times I wished the manufacturing engineers that green lit these designs had actual manufacturing experience.

I don't see how a non-engineer could function as a product design responsible engineer where I work.

That I completely agree with.

 

[BRUISER]

I learned a while back if you are trying to get a job and did attend some college put that you attended "said" college on resume. I did that many years back and got a job as they thought I had a degree from there which I did not but I did attend a few classes. I did not lie and they never asked.

I did the job and never had an issue doing the work as I had the knowledge.

 

[CasterTroy]

They engineer stuff to be easily assembled to save money. They don't care how it comes apart because it's not their job.

That's just something dumb mechanics say because they can't figure out procedure and refuse to read



When I first got out of college my best friend since 2nd grade was a mechanic at cummins atlantic in GSO. We'd get together and he'd bitch constantly about "dumbass engineers" and how nothing was designed for actual service (he REALLY loved pusher coaches ) he would give me absolute hell about engineering because of what he dealt with every day...and I'd have to dish it right back out by telling him he wasn't literate enough to read the manuals

Just glad to see DrKelly chime in from one of those types of engineering jobs to reaffirm there IS thought in that process, since I'm not the COOL kind of engineer

 

[Caver Dave]

I only have a "BS degree" from the University of Shenanigans Misery & Comradery and have never been asked to "prove" it...
OTOH, pretty sure my inherent "assholishness" was all they needed?

Current employer "vets" ALL persons & their claims of greatness... from various collegiate degrees & "professional acronyms" ... all the way down to CPR/first-aid training and "forklift certified"

 

[Bebop]

That's just something dumb mechanics say because they can't figure out procedure and refuse to read



When I first got out of college my best friend since 2nd grade was a mechanic at cummins atlantic in GSO. We'd get together and he'd bitch constantly about "dumbass engineers" and how nothing was designed for actual service (he REALLY loved pusher coaches ) he would give me absolute hell about engineering because of what he dealt with every day...and I'd have to dish it right back out by telling him he wasn't literate enough to read the manuals

Just glad to see DrKelly chime in from one of those types of engineering jobs to reaffirm there IS thought in that process, since I'm not the COOL kind of engineer

When the manual tells you "remove radiator" in order to change a light bulb, you can tell that engineer hasn't worked on many cars in his life...
Ever changed a cam sensor in a Ford Ecosport? Step1: Remove the engine....

Sometimes engineers suck as well...

 

[CasterTroy]

you can tell that engineer hasn't worked on many cars in his life...

absolutely

I spend a couple of years hanging ductwork, soldering copper and digging ditches under a footing with a sharpshooter while forcing case iron piping into a hub by melting lead before I realized what I had been doing WRONG the first few years out of college. It should be mandatory for graduates of engineering and design to spend at least 2 years in the field directly after school, assembling the bullshit they put on paper before they're allowed to put anything out themselves.

 

[paradisePWoffrd]

That is not the case where I work. Anything I design has to be approved by an engineer in the service engineering group as well as an engineer in the manufacturing engineering group. Anything new that I design I have to present in a development loop team meeting where representatives from many areas of the company are present and voice their opinion if it is OK or not.

I don't see how a non-engineer could function as a product design responsible engineer where I work.

I would agree with this. While there are plenty of engineers that have no practical understanding of what they are using, most of the complaints I see here and hear elsewhere are a systematic issue by their employer. Technicians and engineers from multiple facets are involved in design projects where i work, to make sure we are creating the best products for everyone who interacts with it. Doesnt mean it works 100% every time, and the bean counters often try to ruin a good thing, but if the company values having the best product, it can work well. Dont discount manufacturing operations making things cheaper or "Easier" without knowing how their changes will effect others.

 

[Lankford]

absolutely

I spend a couple of years hanging ductwork, soldering copper and digging ditches under a footing with a sharpshooter while forcing case iron piping into a hub by melting lead before I realized what I had been doing WRONG the first few years out of college. It should be mandatory for graduates of engineering and design to spend at least 2 years in the field directly after school, assembling the bullshit they put on paper before they're allowed to put anything out themselves.

Couldnt have been said better. Ive ran across countless engineers that have no practical experience and it shows (works on paper, right). Ive said for a long time that PE's should have to work a year in the field and that would prevent a good chunk of the headaches.

 

[Jeff B]

I've been building asphalt pavers, graders, rollers, distributor trucks and other road building/maintenance equipment for 30 years. Seen a lot of highly educated people come through (engineers) that don't know shit and did not last. I'll stop there.

 

[Croatan_Kid]

That is not the case where I work.

In my case, I was only talking about the automotive engineers and aircraft/aerospace engineers. Although, aerospace can get away with it a little more since they do, inherently, have more limited spaces to work in....plus cars won't fall out of the sky. Usually.

In our cases at work, they're not designing new things. They're there to keep what we've got in service.

That's just something dumb mechanics say because they can't figure out procedure and refuse to read

Yeah, yeah

Thankfully, I'm not an auto mechanic for a living. I do have to read though. Not following instructions is one of the quickest ways to lose my job. 90% of my work instructions are written from our engineers.

 

[benXJ]

When the manual tells you "remove radiator" in order to change a light bulb, you can tell that engineer hasn't worked on many cars in his life...
Ever changed a cam sensor in a Ford Ecosport? Step1: Remove the engine....

Sometimes engineers suck as well...

its because cars are designed by committee....(engineer comittee)

anything designed, decided upon, or talked about by any committee is gonna suck

the drivetrain engineer can make his stuff easy to work on then the aero engineer, hvac designer, harness engineer, and cooling engineer mess it all up

 

[jeepinmatt]

Proves to a potential employer you are coachable, can sit for an extended period of time (4+ years) learning some shit you're mildly interested in, then complete a series of arbitrary tasks in organized fashion using your brain.
Basically you're have the basic potential of being a good employee.

Sure, but that shouldn't be a REQUIREMENT for the job. Certainly a plus in some situations, but makes no sense as a requirement, and often hiring managers and recruiters will overlook very well qualified non-degreed candidates and instead present a much lesser qualified candidate with a degree.

 

[CasterTroy]

Ive ran across countless engineers that have no practical experience and it shows

I like you, Stroupe, Bill Robinson and Kevin Davie. Other than that, I don't really like many others just because of shear ego and belief that they're far more important than they really are.
I'm always open to a phone call and a suggestion to do things a different way than I show it. I think that's the biggest shock to most contractors that work with me. Whether a GC or PME... Old or young..they all seem to be shocked that I offer my cell phone and willingness to work with them on about anything. That, to me, just seems natural but apparently there's some real twatwaffles out there that have a real God complex.
I ain't that guy. Ain't nobody got time for dat

 

[VortecJeep]

Couldnt have been said better. Ive ran across countless engineers that have no practical experience and it shows (works on paper, right). Ive said for a long time that PE's should have to work a year in the field and that would prevent a good chunk of the headaches.

Yep. When I got into the nuclear business, I started out as a design engineer. But for the past 8 years I’ve been a plant engineer. I’ve told management multiple times now that I’ve done both, it was bass-ackwards. I often review designs of upgrades from smart design engineers, but if they had plant engineering experience first, their design would have been right the first time.

 

[drkelly]

absolutely

I spend a couple of years hanging ductwork, soldering copper and digging ditches under a footing with a sharpshooter while forcing case iron piping into a hub by melting lead before I realized what I had been doing WRONG the first few years out of college. It should be mandatory for graduates of engineering and design to spend at least 2 years in the field directly after school, assembling the bullshit they put on paper before they're allowed to put anything out themselves.

Pre-Covid, the company I work for had a program where the design engineers could spend 2 days on the production line working beside the technicians building trucks and assembling the parts they designed. I did it and encouraged others to participate in the program. It wasn't mandatory, but i think it should be. It would probably be good to do it ever few years.

 

[Bebop]

Pre-Covid, the company I work for had a program where the design engineers could spend 2 days on the production line working beside the technicians building trucks and assembling the parts they designed. I did it and encouraged others to participate in the program. It wasn't mandatory, but i think it should be. It would probably be good to do it ever few years.

Hey,

I did take some engineers down the line from that program. Was fun.

 

[Bogleparsons]

Apprenticeship > college degree.
Not always but at least in my field (industrial maintenance)
Of course if you have both that's even better.